A few months ago, I bought another boat after being boat-less for about 10 years. I'm going to put a propane stove in hte galley and am wondering about the differences between a full blown marine stove c/w oven vs a common RV stove. Marine stoves are usually stainless, often gimballed, etc. RV stoves sometimes stainless or ?... Anyone have any experience using an RV Stove on a boat? I've seen lots of pictures of galleys on boats for sail and many have RV stoves. I expect that they would not stand up as long or may have rust problems but they are really, really cheap compared to marine stoves. What are your suggestions or recommendations....
- Status
i had one
A long time ago I had a 24 oday and it had a unsafe stove on it so i tossed it and went to my local camping store and bought a propane stove.. the problem was it was not compact so i modified the hole where the old stove went to make the new stove work and spent 20$ on flexable propane tubeing. than drilled a small hole under the stove and attached the propane bottles out of the way under the sink. also the turn off knobs were easy to acess.. I also liked that it had a griddle. I like propane because if it leaks you can smell it. also they will last as long as you take care of it. I have a camping stove for my rv still looks as new as the day i bought it and i have frinds that have new ones i would be afraid to light.
A long time ago I had a 24 oday and it had a unsafe stove on it so i tossed it and went to my local camping store and bought a propane stove.. the problem was it was not compact so i modified the hole where the old stove went to make the new stove work and spent 20$ on flexable propane tubeing. than drilled a small hole under the stove and attached the propane bottles out of the way under the sink. also the turn off knobs were easy to acess.. I also liked that it had a griddle. I like propane because if it leaks you can smell it. also they will last as long as you take care of it. I have a camping stove for my rv still looks as new as the day i bought it and i have frinds that have new ones i would be afraid to light.
Very scary approach Scuba!!!!!!!!!!!
Having the propane bottle inside the cabin with no means of venting them overboard is a bomb in waiting. Sure you can smell propane but only if you are close enough to the leak. Because propane is heavier than air it will sink into the lowest parts of the boat and wait for a spark. If it is leaking from any connection chances are better than good you would not smell it until too late. I would warn anyone not to use this approach. Even when I used campstoves on board I never stored the canisters below decks. Only above deck in a manner that allowed the gas to either dissipate or discharge over board. Never allow the potential for the gas to "pool" in a location. Even on deck it can be an issue. If the gas flowed into your cockpit and your cockpit drains were clogged, you could literally be sitting in a bathtub of propane... My insurance carrier requires that my tanks be closed if I am not not using the appliances. And they are properly located in lockers vented overboard. I probably sound overly cautious but propane on board needs to be treated with care. Follow accepted procedures...
Having the propane bottle inside the cabin with no means of venting them overboard is a bomb in waiting. Sure you can smell propane but only if you are close enough to the leak. Because propane is heavier than air it will sink into the lowest parts of the boat and wait for a spark. If it is leaking from any connection chances are better than good you would not smell it until too late. I would warn anyone not to use this approach. Even when I used campstoves on board I never stored the canisters below decks. Only above deck in a manner that allowed the gas to either dissipate or discharge over board. Never allow the potential for the gas to "pool" in a location. Even on deck it can be an issue. If the gas flowed into your cockpit and your cockpit drains were clogged, you could literally be sitting in a bathtub of propane... My insurance carrier requires that my tanks be closed if I am not not using the appliances. And they are properly located in lockers vented overboard. I probably sound overly cautious but propane on board needs to be treated with care. Follow accepted procedures...
David is not overly cautious - he's right!
We have touched this topic a number of times over the years (check the archives). Gord May has posted the regulations regarding the use of propane on several occasions. Propane is now the most common source of cooking fuel on boats in the entire world, but there are regulations that should be followed. Not only for your safety, but the safety of all those around you. Your insurance is null and void if an accident happens and you have not done a proper certified installation of the system.
We have touched this topic a number of times over the years (check the archives). Gord May has posted the regulations regarding the use of propane on several occasions. Propane is now the most common source of cooking fuel on boats in the entire world, but there are regulations that should be followed. Not only for your safety, but the safety of all those around you. Your insurance is null and void if an accident happens and you have not done a proper certified installation of the system.
Reasonable Precautions
Now that we have properly warned everyone, lets take a look. I have propane in my fifth wheel trailer and I occasionally use a camper type stove in the boat. I also use a propane burner in a gimbal on the boat. I keep my stoves in good condition, which generally means clean and working properly. Even though propane is heavier than air and sinks, it does not do it immediately like a rock. It diffuses in pretty much all directions and then gradually sinks. If you are in the area when there is a leak, you will smell it. This applies to virtually any fuel including gasoline which we all handle on a daily basis. Used carefully, propane is about as safe as any other fuel. Is there a danger with propane? Certainly. I would venture that properly used it is not any more dangerous than getting in your car and driving across town.
Now that we have properly warned everyone, lets take a look. I have propane in my fifth wheel trailer and I occasionally use a camper type stove in the boat. I also use a propane burner in a gimbal on the boat. I keep my stoves in good condition, which generally means clean and working properly. Even though propane is heavier than air and sinks, it does not do it immediately like a rock. It diffuses in pretty much all directions and then gradually sinks. If you are in the area when there is a leak, you will smell it. This applies to virtually any fuel including gasoline which we all handle on a daily basis. Used carefully, propane is about as safe as any other fuel. Is there a danger with propane? Certainly. I would venture that properly used it is not any more dangerous than getting in your car and driving across town.
Dan, a boat isn't a camper or RV
"It diffuses in pretty much all directions and then gradually sinks." That's no problem in a camper 'cuz propane, gas, etc just fall to the ground and dissipate...But on a boat, they end up in the bilge--where you WON'T smell it unless you're in the bilge. And also the reason why there are very specific CG regs for propane storage aboard: All fittings must meet CG safety standards...tanks must be stored in a locker vented at the bottom (because propane is heavier than air) to the outside of the boat. Disposable cylinders may not be stored below decks or in any enclosed locker, but must stored on deck. Most sailors hang 'em from the rails or lifelines in "hammocks" made just for that purpose.
"It diffuses in pretty much all directions and then gradually sinks." That's no problem in a camper 'cuz propane, gas, etc just fall to the ground and dissipate...But on a boat, they end up in the bilge--where you WON'T smell it unless you're in the bilge. And also the reason why there are very specific CG regs for propane storage aboard: All fittings must meet CG safety standards...tanks must be stored in a locker vented at the bottom (because propane is heavier than air) to the outside of the boat. Disposable cylinders may not be stored below decks or in any enclosed locker, but must stored on deck. Most sailors hang 'em from the rails or lifelines in "hammocks" made just for that purpose.
Thanks Peggy
I planned to use a gimbaled "foul weather" stove as my primary on a 24 footer. Information about Propane storage much appreciatied?
I planned to use a gimbaled "foul weather" stove as my primary on a 24 footer. Information about Propane storage much appreciatied?
Peggy
I don't disagree with anything you have said. What I disagree with is the tendancy for people to warn against every possible action under the guise of safety. The impression given is that propane should not be used on a boat. I believe propane can be used safely. Propane, as most hydrocarbons, have heavy molecular weights and as such they pool. Again, this is not an immediate process. If you are tending your stove while using it, you will smell it. By the way, the smell is not painted on the molecules, they are a seperate gas with a different molecular weight and will not stay with the propane. Just to put this a little into perspective, the atmosphere is made of numerous gases of different molecular weights. The gases do not stratify. Otherwise we would be restricted to a thin layer where the oxygen is located. The natural mixing of the atmosphere keeps them evenly distributed. I am not saying that stratifying does not happen in the boat. I am saying that the process is relatively slow and you have time to react to a leak.
I don't disagree with anything you have said. What I disagree with is the tendancy for people to warn against every possible action under the guise of safety. The impression given is that propane should not be used on a boat. I believe propane can be used safely. Propane, as most hydrocarbons, have heavy molecular weights and as such they pool. Again, this is not an immediate process. If you are tending your stove while using it, you will smell it. By the way, the smell is not painted on the molecules, they are a seperate gas with a different molecular weight and will not stay with the propane. Just to put this a little into perspective, the atmosphere is made of numerous gases of different molecular weights. The gases do not stratify. Otherwise we would be restricted to a thin layer where the oxygen is located. The natural mixing of the atmosphere keeps them evenly distributed. I am not saying that stratifying does not happen in the boat. I am saying that the process is relatively slow and you have time to react to a leak.
You should hear the rants about gas engines, Dan..
I'd guess that at least 75% of sailors believe they're unsafe--which isn't true at all. I've owned gas powered inboard engine boats all my life. Yes, they do require more safety precautions than diesel...but alcohol stoves and faulty wiring--NOT gasoline or propane--cause 90% of boat fires. It's not the fuel, it's failure to follow safety regulations/recommendations--or even use at least a little common sense!--that creates the danger. And that danger is real. You say that the process is relatively slow and you have time to react to a leak. How, if you're not aboard for days? How many people check for leaks when first coming aboard and turning on electric breakers? How many people religiously check all their wiring for signs of fray and chafe that could spark? I was present when leaking propane tank caused an explosion in the bilge of a houseboat. I was not present, though, when another one started a fire that destroyed a dock and every boat on it..it was in the middle of the week when no one was aboard to smell the leak. Propane, like gas inboard engines, is very safe...but only if safety regulations for installation, use and storage are NOT ignored. And unless you keep your boat on a mooring away from all other boats, yours is not the only boat you put at risk by ignoring them.
I'd guess that at least 75% of sailors believe they're unsafe--which isn't true at all. I've owned gas powered inboard engine boats all my life. Yes, they do require more safety precautions than diesel...but alcohol stoves and faulty wiring--NOT gasoline or propane--cause 90% of boat fires. It's not the fuel, it's failure to follow safety regulations/recommendations--or even use at least a little common sense!--that creates the danger. And that danger is real. You say that the process is relatively slow and you have time to react to a leak. How, if you're not aboard for days? How many people check for leaks when first coming aboard and turning on electric breakers? How many people religiously check all their wiring for signs of fray and chafe that could spark? I was present when leaking propane tank caused an explosion in the bilge of a houseboat. I was not present, though, when another one started a fire that destroyed a dock and every boat on it..it was in the middle of the week when no one was aboard to smell the leak. Propane, like gas inboard engines, is very safe...but only if safety regulations for installation, use and storage are NOT ignored. And unless you keep your boat on a mooring away from all other boats, yours is not the only boat you put at risk by ignoring them.
A Few More Comments
The statistics on alcohol stoves does not surprise me. Our MAC 23 had an old German alcohol stove. It was corroded and the fuel caps leaked. In spite my effort to try to clean it up and to get the fuel caps to seal properly, I was never successful. We gave it up after using it on one overnight trip. Alcohol fumes pool very similarly to propane. Unlike propane, there is no smelly gas added to the alcohol. So any spill can result in an undetected accumulation of alcohol fumes. The same applies to most solvents if spilled inside the boat. This is especially true of acetone. Experience with propane in an RV is applicable. RVs are typically subjected to harsher treatment than a sailboat. Just like on a boat, a leak does not tend to go away. Therefore in when there is a leak, you are very apt to notice it. We never leave the valves on at the gas bottle when the RV is not being used or when we are traveling. There is an RV salvage yard near Carthage Missouri. A tour of that salvage yard will quickly convince you of the dangers of mishandled propane. When staying overnight in the sailboat, we usually use a disposable propane bottle to which I attach a burner in a gimble. When the burner is not in use, I remove the burner from the bottle. If there is a leak in the system or the bottle, I can smell it.
The statistics on alcohol stoves does not surprise me. Our MAC 23 had an old German alcohol stove. It was corroded and the fuel caps leaked. In spite my effort to try to clean it up and to get the fuel caps to seal properly, I was never successful. We gave it up after using it on one overnight trip. Alcohol fumes pool very similarly to propane. Unlike propane, there is no smelly gas added to the alcohol. So any spill can result in an undetected accumulation of alcohol fumes. The same applies to most solvents if spilled inside the boat. This is especially true of acetone. Experience with propane in an RV is applicable. RVs are typically subjected to harsher treatment than a sailboat. Just like on a boat, a leak does not tend to go away. Therefore in when there is a leak, you are very apt to notice it. We never leave the valves on at the gas bottle when the RV is not being used or when we are traveling. There is an RV salvage yard near Carthage Missouri. A tour of that salvage yard will quickly convince you of the dangers of mishandled propane. When staying overnight in the sailboat, we usually use a disposable propane bottle to which I attach a burner in a gimble. When the burner is not in use, I remove the burner from the bottle. If there is a leak in the system or the bottle, I can smell it.
Marine vs RV
Thanks all but you missed my question.... There is and likely always will be a debate gas vs diesel or propane vs alcohol, etc. This is not the issue, both are there, both have specific installation standards that must be met for both certification and safety. I've seen a number of boats listed for sale that have pictures of the galley. The stoves in many, appear to be from RV's... I don't really see much difference. Concerns related to leaks, explosions, etc are applicable to both. Design in the venting is the same, not special, dimensions are similar, etc. There is a considerable difference in cost. An RV stove made by Magic Chef is about 1/4 the cost of a Force 10 marine stove. My question goes back to the design of the stove. Marine stoves are usually stainless, RV stoves may not be, rust might be an issue but is it really a problem? Is there any reason why a stove designed for use in an RV cannot be used in a boat?
Thanks all but you missed my question.... There is and likely always will be a debate gas vs diesel or propane vs alcohol, etc. This is not the issue, both are there, both have specific installation standards that must be met for both certification and safety. I've seen a number of boats listed for sale that have pictures of the galley. The stoves in many, appear to be from RV's... I don't really see much difference. Concerns related to leaks, explosions, etc are applicable to both. Design in the venting is the same, not special, dimensions are similar, etc. There is a considerable difference in cost. An RV stove made by Magic Chef is about 1/4 the cost of a Force 10 marine stove. My question goes back to the design of the stove. Marine stoves are usually stainless, RV stoves may not be, rust might be an issue but is it really a problem? Is there any reason why a stove designed for use in an RV cannot be used in a boat?
RV Stove Probably OK
I believe an RV stove would work. Corrosion might be a problem if you sail in salt water. I use non SS parts on the inside of my boat with no problems. I am sure the RV stove will be rugged enough. As I stated in an earlier post, an RV is subjected to a more severe mechanical environment than a boat. One other point, many marine stoves have devices to keep pots, etc in place. You typically do not cook in an RV while moving, although I know that some people do.
I believe an RV stove would work. Corrosion might be a problem if you sail in salt water. I use non SS parts on the inside of my boat with no problems. I am sure the RV stove will be rugged enough. As I stated in an earlier post, an RV is subjected to a more severe mechanical environment than a boat. One other point, many marine stoves have devices to keep pots, etc in place. You typically do not cook in an RV while moving, although I know that some people do.
- Status