So now that I've owned my 78' h30 for a year, it has been a frustrating quest of knowledge. My boat was designed(in my opinion) well. However the build seems to have lacked, a lot. I have learned that I will most likely never own a production boat again. Slap it together get it out the door and get paid. After dealing with so much wood rott and what were they thinking head scratching on different applications, I've come to the conclusion that this boat is the best learning tool I've come across. By the time my boat hits the water, it will still be a cherubini design self built boat. In time I may design and build a boat, a functional world cruiser at a reasonable price. This is a reaching goal, but something that needs to be done.
production boats
- Thread starter Mcksailor
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One has to keep in mind that production boats are really a compromise all around. They have to fit the needs of many, they have to be cost effective to build. Over the years I have worked for several production builders and it can be frustrating at times. You have to keep the accounts and stylists happy while still trying to build a quality product at a price a middle class person can afford. You have a boat that is still sailing after more than 30 years old, I say the builder did a damn good job. How many 30 year old cars are still on the road? And I am guessing you paid less for your boat than you would for a decent used car. You simply cannot expect a production boat to meet the same standards of a custom blue water cruiser. Learn the good things on your boat and note the bad but do not criticize. I wish you luck with designing and building your own boat that will be a good experience and very humbling I am sure.
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
I had a clever, witty, response...but,
the previous poster said it well.
You cannot apply today's production standards, tools, and parts to something built over thirty years ago.
One of my slip mates owned a beautiful Island Packet. The boat was something. She had no more systems than my boat. He followed me part for part as he replaced the things that were past thier useful life. We often sailed to the same places, anchored in the same coves, and watched the same sunsets.
His wonderfuly put together boat cost 10 times what mine did...TEN TIMES. I saved the money, bought a new truck, a new mini-cooper, a new Harley Davidson, and a new travel trailer...and had money left over to do the repairs and upgrades on my boat.
I have lovingly worked to make her the boat that suits me. I don't complain about a loyal companion that has taken me farther than I would have gone alone, to places I only saw in my imagination.
I thank a designer with vision, a boatyard with skills, and a "bean-counter" that gave me a boat I could afford...and afford to maintain.
She goes in the water in two weeks. She waits patiently for the next horizon. I defy anyone who knows these boats to say they are simply wood, wire, and fiberglass.
If your boat does not speak to you (as mine does to me) perhaps it is because she beleives you see her for what she is not, and fail to love her for what she is.
Once again she and I plan our next tryst. She will protect, comfort, shelter and cradle me as I wander, sleep, and dream.
IMHO.
the previous poster said it well.
You cannot apply today's production standards, tools, and parts to something built over thirty years ago.
One of my slip mates owned a beautiful Island Packet. The boat was something. She had no more systems than my boat. He followed me part for part as he replaced the things that were past thier useful life. We often sailed to the same places, anchored in the same coves, and watched the same sunsets.
His wonderfuly put together boat cost 10 times what mine did...TEN TIMES. I saved the money, bought a new truck, a new mini-cooper, a new Harley Davidson, and a new travel trailer...and had money left over to do the repairs and upgrades on my boat.
I have lovingly worked to make her the boat that suits me. I don't complain about a loyal companion that has taken me farther than I would have gone alone, to places I only saw in my imagination.
I thank a designer with vision, a boatyard with skills, and a "bean-counter" that gave me a boat I could afford...and afford to maintain.
She goes in the water in two weeks. She waits patiently for the next horizon. I defy anyone who knows these boats to say they are simply wood, wire, and fiberglass.
If your boat does not speak to you (as mine does to me) perhaps it is because she beleives you see her for what she is not, and fail to love her for what she is.
Once again she and I plan our next tryst. She will protect, comfort, shelter and cradle me as I wander, sleep, and dream.
IMHO.
So just what are your chances of designing and building a custom, one-off world cruiser? You are a trained naval architect, are you? And you know from years of experience what is needed and how to best do it? And skilled at boat building? And can get all the materials and components at OEM prices? And have all the specialized tools and fixtures. Look around at some of those home/amateur designed boats, or even home/amateur boats built from professional plans. A few are good, but most are pretty much disasters. And there's always that issue of funds....I'm guessing, that funds may be a bit limited for such a project. The production boats, even some of the poorly designed and built ones are likely to be vastly superior to any amateur, one off boat. Most production boats are built by people who have been years in the industry, and built hundreds, perhaps thousands of a given model. They make screw-ups and mistakes too initially, but over time they improve. Today's production boats are quite a bit improved over the earlier designs.
I, for one, am really glad that there are production boats out there, and especially those three that frequently get trashed in threads like this...Catalina, Beneteau, Hunter. Those manufacturers have made it possible for lots of us with limited means to enjoy a sport that otherwise would be limited only to the very rich. Every time at look at my Catalina 320, I am amazed at how well it was executed, and though it was expensive by my standards, I don't see how they delivered so much at the price that they did. And if you really are going "world cruiser", then there are production manufacturers who build those types of boats....a bit more expensive, but still will be cheaper than your amateur, one-off home built.
One could argue that perhaps the H30 is not a blue water boat, but you could equally argue it was never designed to be. Its a coastal cruiser camper boat that people have taken places it was never meant to go, and survived. And just like campers, everything about a boat, any boat, is a compromise. You want speed? You have to cut weight and comfort accommodations. You want blue water capability, you need more ballast and keel at the cost of speed. You want a big fuel tank? You have to lose storage. You want more storage, you have to cut fuel capacity. You want to cut costs? you either have to use cheaper, lower quality materials and equipment, or strip it down. Etc., etc., etc..
I have better things to do with my life than think about building a better boat. There are a million used boats by a million different manufactures, built to a million different specifications and intended purposes to pick and choose from. Everything from 15,000 pound 30 foot blue water boats you could sail the world with, to beautifully appointed light weight 30 foot cruisers you should stay in more protected waters with. And everything in between. Pick one that fits the main goals you looking for, one that has good reviews, one that was designed to be strong enough to battle the seas you intend to travel, and enjoy.
I have better things to do with my life than think about building a better boat. There are a million used boats by a million different manufactures, built to a million different specifications and intended purposes to pick and choose from. Everything from 15,000 pound 30 foot blue water boats you could sail the world with, to beautifully appointed light weight 30 foot cruisers you should stay in more protected waters with. And everything in between. Pick one that fits the main goals you looking for, one that has good reviews, one that was designed to be strong enough to battle the seas you intend to travel, and enjoy.
Another consideration is the number of previous owners. You apparently bought a neglected boat that needed a lot of catch up manitenance. I bought Midnight Sun new 35 years ago and promise you that my "production" boat is ready to cross the Atlantic again with a days notice to provision.
We looked around for our current boat for a year 1997 to 1998. We had started with a C22, then a C25 and were impressed with the build qualities on both boats. While we first started up-sizing to a C30, my wife said: Why not get the boat you REALLY want, a C34!" Who was I to argue?
AFIK, the build quality is very, very good. ALL systems are accessible and can be worked on. Our 1986 boat has an upgraded electrical system that we installed, including an Freedom 15 combined inverter/charger and a larger alternator wired directly to the house bank with a combiner (in 1998 they hadn't invented the echo charger yet). The OEM water pump is still going strong (Shurflo). I've replaced the raw water pump on our M25 once and rebuilt it once - pretty good for a 26 year old engine with 2600 engine hours. Access to the stuffing box is far superior to any I've seen elsewhere, on any kinda boat. The chainplate design is very good and easy to access and work on. The PO replaced the hot water heater before he sold the boat to us. Battery access? Superior - we use wet cells and can lift up two settee cushions to reach them all. Handholds are great, inside and out. I replaced the older traveler with a new 6:1 Garhauer setup. And because the boat only came with one centerline forward cleat we had to add one on the port side. The anchoring system is easy and well thought out.
I have NO complaints.
Oh, it's a production boat.
It seems to me one has to do their, dare I say, homework and research, before buying. We inspected many different boats, but this one is not only a keeper, but well built with systems that are simple and all work.
We also have the largest V berth in any boat of its size. We sleep very well.
I'm sure many others have "production" boats that are damn good, too.
AFIK, the build quality is very, very good. ALL systems are accessible and can be worked on. Our 1986 boat has an upgraded electrical system that we installed, including an Freedom 15 combined inverter/charger and a larger alternator wired directly to the house bank with a combiner (in 1998 they hadn't invented the echo charger yet). The OEM water pump is still going strong (Shurflo). I've replaced the raw water pump on our M25 once and rebuilt it once - pretty good for a 26 year old engine with 2600 engine hours. Access to the stuffing box is far superior to any I've seen elsewhere, on any kinda boat. The chainplate design is very good and easy to access and work on. The PO replaced the hot water heater before he sold the boat to us. Battery access? Superior - we use wet cells and can lift up two settee cushions to reach them all. Handholds are great, inside and out. I replaced the older traveler with a new 6:1 Garhauer setup. And because the boat only came with one centerline forward cleat we had to add one on the port side. The anchoring system is easy and well thought out.
I have NO complaints.
Oh, it's a production boat.
It seems to me one has to do their, dare I say, homework and research, before buying. We inspected many different boats, but this one is not only a keeper, but well built with systems that are simple and all work.
We also have the largest V berth in any boat of its size. We sleep very well.
I'm sure many others have "production" boats that are damn good, too.
i cant afford a swan or a hinckley, nor can i afford a ferrari. what i can do is take something older and affordable and using my skills make it into something beautiful. when i was younger i built and raced cars. because i built it i knew every nut and bolt in it. i took great pride in what i had done. boats are no different. i took an O'day 31 that needed work, which i could afford, and with a lot of hard work and a reasonable amount of money it is now a beautiful boat that i am very proud of. people at the boatyard always comment on how nice it is. i am like a proud parent. i would never begrudge those who can afford to buy new, but i dont think they enjoy the bond with their boats that we do. just my opinion
IMHO
1. After 35 years most everything rots.
2. Custom built and semi-custom have as many or more problems. These boats are built in very small numbers and the mfg does not know about many of the problems that production boats see during the model runs.
3. Hunter was not known for it's fit & finish in the early years. They were strongly built but not as pretty as some of the other mfg.
4. If you can afford a non-production boat I am a little suprised you purchased at 35 y.o. vessel.
1. After 35 years most everything rots.
2. Custom built and semi-custom have as many or more problems. These boats are built in very small numbers and the mfg does not know about many of the problems that production boats see during the model runs.
3. Hunter was not known for it's fit & finish in the early years. They were strongly built but not as pretty as some of the other mfg.
4. If you can afford a non-production boat I am a little suprised you purchased at 35 y.o. vessel.
Islander is a 77 Hunter 30. She takes me places I could never go without her. She tolerates my beginners mistakes and brings me back safe. Most work I have done on her has been mechanical or electrical. Yes the cabinetry is not showy but its functional and she cleans up well.
I had my first sail of the season today. If I spent more time on cosmetics she would be prettier but not safer or faster. Yes she was the quintessential production boat but over her 36 years she has made people happy and if not in great style she has a charm all her own.
Any 30 foot boat with this many years on her that routinely passes newer prettier interiors close hauled is in my book a champ of the first order. John Cherribini's design still works well and if Hunter cheaped out below decks it's not what I care about.
Those are today's pictures attached.
I had my first sail of the season today. If I spent more time on cosmetics she would be prettier but not safer or faster. Yes she was the quintessential production boat but over her 36 years she has made people happy and if not in great style she has a charm all her own.
Any 30 foot boat with this many years on her that routinely passes newer prettier interiors close hauled is in my book a champ of the first order. John Cherribini's design still works well and if Hunter cheaped out below decks it's not what I care about.
Those are today's pictures attached.
Attachments
I think another thing that needs to go into this tread is the existence of websites like this and others that share vast amounts of information from current owners of a particular boat/model, past owners and boat industry professionals. We have a resource that didn't exist in the 1980s when a 1970s production boat was coming up against its first real round of big maintenance projects.
How many times do we see a post about"how do you fix this?" And within hours typically you see several knowledgable responses. Back in the 1980-1990s most owners and even boat yards (I have seen several posts from yard workers trying to figure out how to fix or install something and they go to the owners group for help) didn't have this resource. They likely had a book on generic boat maintenance and maybe a couple of marina friends or club members, likely with different boats, they could ask. Nothing that even compares to the information you get from people like Mainesail, Stu Jackson or Paulj (C310 group shout out).
My last boat, a 1980 C&C 24, was owned by my uncle since 1984 and was primarily maintained by a very well respected boat yard in the Newport area. I do consider my uncle to have been a knowledgable boat owner. But I still found many things on that boat that were not done right thanks to this forum and others. I just chalk it up to the level of accessible knowledge being different. I could typically find an answer with 30 minutes of googling while they were left to figure it out on their own for the most part.
Personally, I love product boats. I could never afford to become a sailor or cruiser if it wasn't for them. We are leaving on an open ended cruise of the east coast and Caribbean in a production boat. There is no way we could even contemplate such a thing if we only had custom boats to choose from.
How many times do we see a post about"how do you fix this?" And within hours typically you see several knowledgable responses. Back in the 1980-1990s most owners and even boat yards (I have seen several posts from yard workers trying to figure out how to fix or install something and they go to the owners group for help) didn't have this resource. They likely had a book on generic boat maintenance and maybe a couple of marina friends or club members, likely with different boats, they could ask. Nothing that even compares to the information you get from people like Mainesail, Stu Jackson or Paulj (C310 group shout out).
My last boat, a 1980 C&C 24, was owned by my uncle since 1984 and was primarily maintained by a very well respected boat yard in the Newport area. I do consider my uncle to have been a knowledgable boat owner. But I still found many things on that boat that were not done right thanks to this forum and others. I just chalk it up to the level of accessible knowledge being different. I could typically find an answer with 30 minutes of googling while they were left to figure it out on their own for the most part.
Personally, I love product boats. I could never afford to become a sailor or cruiser if it wasn't for them. We are leaving on an open ended cruise of the east coast and Caribbean in a production boat. There is no way we could even contemplate such a thing if we only had custom boats to choose from.
As noted above, it's apples to oranges. My house and my boat were both coincidentally built in 1971. The house, which was considered architecturally noteworthy and cutting edge when it was built, has probably had it's roof replaced twice, it's on it's third furnace and AC unit, two years ago we spent 15k on windows and doors, the bathrooms have all be redone over the years, the kitchen and appliances are all new, etc. We love the house, and it's perfectly livable and desirable and its in a great neighborhood, of course it doesn't have the big open floor plan, huge bathrooms, big walk-ins, and modern construction materials of a house built today. If none of those upgrades had been done along the line, the house would be virtually unlivable.
My boat has had similar care over the years. I've only had her for 2 years, but I'm sure the rigging is a little better than original, the new sail is better, the cushions have been redone, a new-fangled GPS has joined the compass, but it's still essential the same boat. It sails great, it's fun, it gets me home safely. Sure I admire the 200k boats that fill its place in the market today, but that's just not what my boat is. Is an older boat. I does what it's supposed to do, and it does it well.
My boat has had similar care over the years. I've only had her for 2 years, but I'm sure the rigging is a little better than original, the new sail is better, the cushions have been redone, a new-fangled GPS has joined the compass, but it's still essential the same boat. It sails great, it's fun, it gets me home safely. Sure I admire the 200k boats that fill its place in the market today, but that's just not what my boat is. Is an older boat. I does what it's supposed to do, and it does it well.
A vote for used boats
Now you guys all know why it has taken me SO LONG to finish the restoration of my little boat! I'll heartily echo what Captain Wayne and Dunlookin have said, especially about the costs--
1. An older production boat in decent fixer-upper shape will cost far less than a car with the equivalent proportion of work to be done; and what's more most of the work can be done by the DIY-er (unless of course the automotive DIYer has access to a welding rig, a cylinder-boring machine, and an auto-body shop).
2. When Dunlookin' says his neighbor's boat cost 10 times what his modest fixer-upper did, I shall submit that my little boat, while its restoration cost about twice what the theoretical market will bear, is now at least twice as strong, reliable, durable and safe (and cool-looking) as it was when new and can look forward-- largely due to my own building ethic-- to another 35-40 years of sailing life. Try that with a car that costs you, at first, less than a decent new guitar amplifer. Hm.
Now you guys all know why it has taken me SO LONG to finish the restoration of my little boat! I'll heartily echo what Captain Wayne and Dunlookin have said, especially about the costs--
1. An older production boat in decent fixer-upper shape will cost far less than a car with the equivalent proportion of work to be done; and what's more most of the work can be done by the DIY-er (unless of course the automotive DIYer has access to a welding rig, a cylinder-boring machine, and an auto-body shop).
2. When Dunlookin' says his neighbor's boat cost 10 times what his modest fixer-upper did, I shall submit that my little boat, while its restoration cost about twice what the theoretical market will bear, is now at least twice as strong, reliable, durable and safe (and cool-looking) as it was when new and can look forward-- largely due to my own building ethic-- to another 35-40 years of sailing life. Try that with a car that costs you, at first, less than a decent new guitar amplifer. Hm.
Hey folks will post the PDFs I have but I am away from home till next week. Sorry it took so long to respond.
Diana's splash
I'll post more pics after I have painted the hull (1st or 2nd week of May). My splash target is June 25th (yes; this year) but there are still unresolved hurdles ahead and so I can't promise it's really happening.
It has been too long; but you know how life intervenes!
Everyone is invited to the party.
I'll post more pics after I have painted the hull (1st or 2nd week of May). My splash target is June 25th (yes; this year) but there are still unresolved hurdles ahead and so I can't promise it's really happening.
It has been too long; but you know how life intervenes!
Everyone is invited to the party.
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