The foot of my main sail fits on the boom slot (not sure what this is called but its the opposite of "loose footed". I will be purchasing a new main for next season and want to know if loose or "not loose" will make any difference in my ability to use the outhaul control. What type of pressure are we talking about to control it? Will it ever be loose enough for the foot of the sail to be curved or will it always be a straight line. I have been told that I can ignore the outhaul control because it has no effect on old/worn sails - seems to be the case for me. Roger Hunter 37 - Destiny
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Dave
Controlling draft
When the main is loose-footed, many sailors I know use the outhaul to control the draft in the sail. It comes into play much more than on a traditional mainsail.
When the main is loose-footed, many sailors I know use the outhaul to control the draft in the sail. It comes into play much more than on a traditional mainsail.
J
Joe
Roger, someone's been giving you some...
...bad advice. The truth is almost all controls are ineffective at trying to flatten a worn out sail. Not just the outhaul. You will have the option of a loose foot or shelf foot mainsail. Either will be sensitive to the outhaul adjustment. The shelf foot is attached to the boom along its length and has an extra piece of cloth sewn into it that allows the sail to expand when the outhaul is eased. Talk to your sailmaker about this preference. The shelf foot is usually at additional cost. On a boat of your size, considerable purchase is needed for the outhaul rig. Most boats have this purchase rigged inside the boom, many have the outhaul line led to the mast and then back the cockpit near a winch. Being able to adjust and fine tune the main is one of the absolute joys of sailing. You'll see what I mean when you get the new sail.
...bad advice. The truth is almost all controls are ineffective at trying to flatten a worn out sail. Not just the outhaul. You will have the option of a loose foot or shelf foot mainsail. Either will be sensitive to the outhaul adjustment. The shelf foot is attached to the boom along its length and has an extra piece of cloth sewn into it that allows the sail to expand when the outhaul is eased. Talk to your sailmaker about this preference. The shelf foot is usually at additional cost. On a boat of your size, considerable purchase is needed for the outhaul rig. Most boats have this purchase rigged inside the boom, many have the outhaul line led to the mast and then back the cockpit near a winch. Being able to adjust and fine tune the main is one of the absolute joys of sailing. You'll see what I mean when you get the new sail.
D
Don Guillette
Practical Use Of The Outhaul On Main
I was going to discuss the outhaul and the boom vang together but they are both very important sail trim controls so I decide to deal with them separately. Roger, whether you buy a loose footed mainsail or bolt rope probably doesn’t matter. The jury is still out on this. You’ll notice that all America Cup boat have the bolt rope and a very tall boom and the reason is they are trying to trap as much air as they can. It’s called end plate effect. I prefer the bolt rope but a lot of Catalina like the loose fotted model. A loose footer main is a bit easier to control from an outhaul standpoint due to the lack of friction due to no bolt rope. Actually, an outhaul will help with a slightly blown out sail. It certainly can’t hurt. The outhaul controls both draft position and draft depth. At this point I must mention that to be a proficient sail trimmer you have to completely understand the 4 elements of sail trim and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Once you understand those 4 elements – and that’s all there is to sail trim folks- , you are miles ahead of 75% of the sailors worldwide. If you don’t believe just ask your dock neighbor or sailing friend to explain these items to you and see the answers you get. Anyway, for a detailed explanation of those 4 terms just access the archives section of the forum. Why the outhaul is so important is that it controls the bottom 2/3 of the mainsail. Sadly, most sailors don’t even use it. On most older Catalina 30’s it doesn’t even work due to a crappy design. If you are a C30 owner and would like to know how to convert to a simple external system just contact me off forum at yankee3223@juno.com and I’ll explain it to you as I don’t want to tie up the forum on a brand specific item. Increasing tension on the outhaul by pulling it aft moves the draft position forward and reduces (flattens) the draft depth (belly). Decreasing pressure by allowing the outhaul to go forward causes the draft position to go aft and the draft depth (belly) to get bigger. Actually, when you visualize what is happening in your mind or try it on the water you’ll see how obvious it is. When you want to increase and decrease the draft depth and move the draft position is a whole other story. A short version is that when you are sailing upwind in moderate wind, you want the outhaul about the middle position, which produces a moderately flat sail and reduces drag. As the wind builds, you want to increase outhaul pressure to produces a flatter sail. In choppy conditions, you want to ease the outhaul to produce a fuller, more powerful sail.
I was going to discuss the outhaul and the boom vang together but they are both very important sail trim controls so I decide to deal with them separately. Roger, whether you buy a loose footed mainsail or bolt rope probably doesn’t matter. The jury is still out on this. You’ll notice that all America Cup boat have the bolt rope and a very tall boom and the reason is they are trying to trap as much air as they can. It’s called end plate effect. I prefer the bolt rope but a lot of Catalina like the loose fotted model. A loose footer main is a bit easier to control from an outhaul standpoint due to the lack of friction due to no bolt rope. Actually, an outhaul will help with a slightly blown out sail. It certainly can’t hurt. The outhaul controls both draft position and draft depth. At this point I must mention that to be a proficient sail trimmer you have to completely understand the 4 elements of sail trim and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Once you understand those 4 elements – and that’s all there is to sail trim folks- , you are miles ahead of 75% of the sailors worldwide. If you don’t believe just ask your dock neighbor or sailing friend to explain these items to you and see the answers you get. Anyway, for a detailed explanation of those 4 terms just access the archives section of the forum. Why the outhaul is so important is that it controls the bottom 2/3 of the mainsail. Sadly, most sailors don’t even use it. On most older Catalina 30’s it doesn’t even work due to a crappy design. If you are a C30 owner and would like to know how to convert to a simple external system just contact me off forum at yankee3223@juno.com and I’ll explain it to you as I don’t want to tie up the forum on a brand specific item. Increasing tension on the outhaul by pulling it aft moves the draft position forward and reduces (flattens) the draft depth (belly). Decreasing pressure by allowing the outhaul to go forward causes the draft position to go aft and the draft depth (belly) to get bigger. Actually, when you visualize what is happening in your mind or try it on the water you’ll see how obvious it is. When you want to increase and decrease the draft depth and move the draft position is a whole other story. A short version is that when you are sailing upwind in moderate wind, you want the outhaul about the middle position, which produces a moderately flat sail and reduces drag. As the wind builds, you want to increase outhaul pressure to produces a flatter sail. In choppy conditions, you want to ease the outhaul to produce a fuller, more powerful sail.
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Trevor
Outhaul and loose foot vs. bolt rope
Ah, the old loose foot vs. bolt rope discussion. As Don says, people have varying opinions about this, but I'm squarely in the loose footed camp. After speaking to several sail makers, I opted for the loose foot when I replaced my mainsail. While I was eagerly awaiting my new sail, I rebuilt my outhaul system. No matter how your system is set up, you can improve it dramatically by adding purchase and replacing blocks with those that have ball bearings (thereby reducing friction). Of the upgrades I've made to my C36, this one has a huge result to expense ratio - I highly recommend it! Combined with the loose footed mainsail, I can easily adjust the draft depth of my mainsail on all points in windspeeds up to 20k! This makes for an easy time experimenting and improving sail trim. If you make sail controls easy to use, you'll undoubtedly tinker with them and learn what works! Have fun with that new sail; you'll be amazed at the additional horsepower! Best, Trevor
Ah, the old loose foot vs. bolt rope discussion. As Don says, people have varying opinions about this, but I'm squarely in the loose footed camp. After speaking to several sail makers, I opted for the loose foot when I replaced my mainsail. While I was eagerly awaiting my new sail, I rebuilt my outhaul system. No matter how your system is set up, you can improve it dramatically by adding purchase and replacing blocks with those that have ball bearings (thereby reducing friction). Of the upgrades I've made to my C36, this one has a huge result to expense ratio - I highly recommend it! Combined with the loose footed mainsail, I can easily adjust the draft depth of my mainsail on all points in windspeeds up to 20k! This makes for an easy time experimenting and improving sail trim. If you make sail controls easy to use, you'll undoubtedly tinker with them and learn what works! Have fun with that new sail; you'll be amazed at the additional horsepower! Best, Trevor
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Don Guillette
Practical Use Of The Outhaul On Main
Trevor: Is that you of Karisa's husbands fame? For anyone reading this, Karisa is the gal you talk to at sailboatowners.com when you order the great stuff that they sell. She sees to it you get your products faster than any other company. Try her and you'll find out I'm not kidding. The loose footed vs the bolt rope was raging long and hard over on the the Catalina list and I was right in the middle of it. A skipper (Max Munger - C30 National organization)I race with at the Catalina 30 National events just converted to loose footed so we'll see how he likes it after he campaignes his boat this season racing against bolt rope guys. While that discussion was going on, I happened to be watching the Congressional Cup races in Long Beach,Ca. These boats are identical C37 that are raced by the top sailors from all over the world in head to head match races. You are able to view the event from the Belmont Pier and this allows you to look right down into the cockpit and watch as they jockey for position as the starting line is at the pier. Out of 12 boats racing, I saw 2 with loose footed mains. This surprised me as I didn't expect to see any!! As my luck would have it, a loose footed and bolt rope were matched up and I was able to watch them perform against each other. As I said, these boats are sailed by the best sailors in the world and it is a beautiful site to watch 12 boats with perfectly set sails - especially if your as anal as I am about sail trim. Anyway, I watched the the loose footed vs the bolt rope through their entire race. And do you know what happened? Nothing!! They went neck and neck around the entire course. They were so close the crews could walk across the boats and the bolt rope won by less than about 2', which is nothing. Each day they change boats so no one has an unfair advantage. I did notice the loose footed were now bolt rope but that was no surprise but only 1 boat the next day was loose footed and I wondered why. So I don't know. I guess I'm too old to change. Aerodynamically speaking, I think the the bolt rope is more effective but what does a common seaman know. From an ease of operation, I have a 6:1 external outhaul system on my C30, which is so much more powerful than the internal factory system, that I could pull the cringle out of the clew if I wanted to.
Trevor: Is that you of Karisa's husbands fame? For anyone reading this, Karisa is the gal you talk to at sailboatowners.com when you order the great stuff that they sell. She sees to it you get your products faster than any other company. Try her and you'll find out I'm not kidding. The loose footed vs the bolt rope was raging long and hard over on the the Catalina list and I was right in the middle of it. A skipper (Max Munger - C30 National organization)I race with at the Catalina 30 National events just converted to loose footed so we'll see how he likes it after he campaignes his boat this season racing against bolt rope guys. While that discussion was going on, I happened to be watching the Congressional Cup races in Long Beach,Ca. These boats are identical C37 that are raced by the top sailors from all over the world in head to head match races. You are able to view the event from the Belmont Pier and this allows you to look right down into the cockpit and watch as they jockey for position as the starting line is at the pier. Out of 12 boats racing, I saw 2 with loose footed mains. This surprised me as I didn't expect to see any!! As my luck would have it, a loose footed and bolt rope were matched up and I was able to watch them perform against each other. As I said, these boats are sailed by the best sailors in the world and it is a beautiful site to watch 12 boats with perfectly set sails - especially if your as anal as I am about sail trim. Anyway, I watched the the loose footed vs the bolt rope through their entire race. And do you know what happened? Nothing!! They went neck and neck around the entire course. They were so close the crews could walk across the boats and the bolt rope won by less than about 2', which is nothing. Each day they change boats so no one has an unfair advantage. I did notice the loose footed were now bolt rope but that was no surprise but only 1 boat the next day was loose footed and I wondered why. So I don't know. I guess I'm too old to change. Aerodynamically speaking, I think the the bolt rope is more effective but what does a common seaman know. From an ease of operation, I have a 6:1 external outhaul system on my C30, which is so much more powerful than the internal factory system, that I could pull the cringle out of the clew if I wanted to.
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Trevor
Want to learn sail trim? Read Don's book
Hi Don - I wan to thank you for publishing your excellent book on sail trim. I read it cover to cover the other night. I have several books on sail trim that have taken me a lot longer to digest (I have only managed to get a few pages into them before falling asleep!) Talk about good "armchair reading"; it's easy to visualize what you are describing. And visualization is good training, no matter what sport. And I'll be sure to pass on the kind words to Karisa - she really cares about her customers. Keep up the good work Don! Trevor
Hi Don - I wan to thank you for publishing your excellent book on sail trim. I read it cover to cover the other night. I have several books on sail trim that have taken me a lot longer to digest (I have only managed to get a few pages into them before falling asleep!) Talk about good "armchair reading"; it's easy to visualize what you are describing. And visualization is good training, no matter what sport. And I'll be sure to pass on the kind words to Karisa - she really cares about her customers. Keep up the good work Don! Trevor
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Don Guillette
A number of C30 owners contacted me about the modification I made to my outhaul system. Since I recieved such a response, I thought I would publish my anwser. The problem with the Catalina internal system is in its design. The block inside the boom has a shackle which twists over time and makes it inoperative or at best very difficult to operate. Another problem, which make the factory system harder to operate, is the cheesy slide car which is supposed to slid in the bolt rope track. The problem with the design of the system is the rear pulling force of the outhaul, which is downward, causes the car to dig in to the boom creating an enormous amount of friction. One solution is to remove the boom, take off the end caps and fix the internal block by replacing the block itself but this is not an easy process. I first tried that route and almost broke the end caps, which are just cheap pot metal. I gave up after stripping all the screws and lugged the whole contraption back to the boat and came up with a better way to make the system work. As an aside, my wife went nuts when I tried to jamb the boom into her Toyota for the trip home. I had no idea how heavy it actually was and I had to lug it from my slip (62 slips or about 1 foot ball field length)and when I found that it would not fit in her car, I had to lug it all the way back to the boat - all the time listening to her bitch at me going to the car and saying " I told you it wouldn't fit" all the way back to the boat!! To solve the problem, what I did was mount 2 Harken triple blocks (expensive and over priced little buggers) on the end of the boom -one on the tang and the other on the clew. It took about 15 minutes to hook it up. I still utilize the cheesy slide car but the pulling force is more horizontal so the car can't dig into the boom. A friend of mine from Maryland - Max Munger C30 National Organization- went one step further and installed a track , which bolts to the bolt rope track and attached a Garhauer sliding car. His system is effortless and an improvement over my system but to make it work you need to have a piece cut out of the clew of your main so it can move over the track or have a loose footed main. Anyway, if you have any questions about the setup let me know. The outhaul line goes along the boom and stops where it normally comes out of the boom. I could run it back to the cockpit if I wanted to but I'm up there anyway messing with the cunningham so its no big deal. Again,if anyone is interested in a picture of this setup just contact me at yankee3223@juno.com and I'll shoot you a picture. You'll be amazed at how simple it is to install and how effective it is to operate.
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Tom M.
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Don Guillette
Don, Why Don't you Just Post The Picture Here!
Tom: Good idea. I'll take some good pictures this weekend and post them. The reason I didn't post them is because I'm a computer idiot and not very good at getting around on a computer. Even if I knew I could post them I didn't know how.I'm a pretty good sail trimmer but these computers just throw me. I'll ask Phil at our host how to do it. While I'm at the picture taking, is there anything else you'd like to see? My boat is completely equipted with just about everything Garhauer makes - straight track traveler system, dodger kit that allows line to run under the glass, adjustable fairlead system, rigid boom vang, mainsheet conversion kit and on and on. You name it and if Garhauer makes it I have it. Most of the stuff they develop, I get to "test drive" before it goes into production.
Tom: Good idea. I'll take some good pictures this weekend and post them. The reason I didn't post them is because I'm a computer idiot and not very good at getting around on a computer. Even if I knew I could post them I didn't know how.I'm a pretty good sail trimmer but these computers just throw me. I'll ask Phil at our host how to do it. While I'm at the picture taking, is there anything else you'd like to see? My boat is completely equipted with just about everything Garhauer makes - straight track traveler system, dodger kit that allows line to run under the glass, adjustable fairlead system, rigid boom vang, mainsheet conversion kit and on and on. You name it and if Garhauer makes it I have it. Most of the stuff they develop, I get to "test drive" before it goes into production.
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