My family is moving from dingy sailing to a 30-footer, and my wife and I don't agree on the right rule for PFD use by kids on board. (We're talking about 7-13 year-olds who have spent time on the water, so they're not going to do something crazy.) My thought is that PFDs should be required in the cockpit, but not in the cabin except in rough weather; my wife wants them worn always, everywhere, like on the dingy. I certainly don't want to endanger my kids, but I want them to enjoy sailing and not be needlessly uncomfortable on board. How have others handled this issue?
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Pete
The LAW is the answer
In my home state (CT)a child under the age of twelve must have a PFD on at all times unless the boat is at the dock!So check with your state law. HOWEVER I think you wife can mandate usage as she see fit!You won't win !Maybe you could get the kids a colorful vest type PFD and the kids won't be so uncomfortable and won't fight the use of them.Show them how the Coast Guard uses them all the time.I would also suggest that while your kids may not "do something crazy" accicents do happen and this is when PFD are need the most!Give it some time and let the kids and your wife get use to the bigger boat and rules can alway change,however the law will overule your rule with reguards to age so check local and state laws! Good Luck!
In my home state (CT)a child under the age of twelve must have a PFD on at all times unless the boat is at the dock!So check with your state law. HOWEVER I think you wife can mandate usage as she see fit!You won't win !Maybe you could get the kids a colorful vest type PFD and the kids won't be so uncomfortable and won't fight the use of them.Show them how the Coast Guard uses them all the time.I would also suggest that while your kids may not "do something crazy" accicents do happen and this is when PFD are need the most!Give it some time and let the kids and your wife get use to the bigger boat and rules can alway change,however the law will overule your rule with reguards to age so check local and state laws! Good Luck!
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
No need for 'em in the cabin unless
you have portlights big enough for 'em fall out of. Whether they need to be worn in the cockpit, as long as they're not sitting on the gunwhales or hiking out depends upon the conditions...but I wouldn't let an adult, much less a child, go forward without one on my boat unless it's anchored...and I wear a PFD in a dinghy, and so do my passengers. If you have to err, it's hard to go wrong erring on the side of caution...but you also have to apply common sense. And common sense says there's no situation in which a PFD worn in the cabin would have any use at all...only if somebody falls overboard.
you have portlights big enough for 'em fall out of. Whether they need to be worn in the cockpit, as long as they're not sitting on the gunwhales or hiking out depends upon the conditions...but I wouldn't let an adult, much less a child, go forward without one on my boat unless it's anchored...and I wear a PFD in a dinghy, and so do my passengers. If you have to err, it's hard to go wrong erring on the side of caution...but you also have to apply common sense. And common sense says there's no situation in which a PFD worn in the cabin would have any use at all...only if somebody falls overboard.
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MIke D
Law of the ????
Dave, I think Pete pretty much summed it up. If you care to see the individual state laws, check out the link posted below. safe boating, Mike D
Dave, I think Pete pretty much summed it up. If you care to see the individual state laws, check out the link posted below. safe boating, Mike D
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Rick Webb
Interim Life Jacket Rule for Children
This is what the Feds say check with your state as well. But you know you will have to defer to the wife anyway. If you do convince her that they are not needed in the cabin (I let my kids remove them in the cabin) make sure that they can quickly identify which vest is theirs. If they are all orange it will be tougher to find the one that fits than if each of them have their own color. Having a specific place for them to go is a good idea as well. When things go bad they go real bad real fast. Actually even for adults on the boat I ask them to try on a vest fit it properly and to remember which one is theirs in case they are needed. Interim Life Jacket Rule for Children United States Coast Guard U. S. Coast Guard Headquarters Washington, DC Media Advisory ......Re-issued-June 27, 2002 CAPT SCOTT EVANS CHIEF, BOATING SAFETY 202-267-1077 MS. JO CALKIN BOATING SAFETY OFFICE 202-267-0994 Mr. JAMES "JACK" O'DELL PUBLIC AFFAIRS 202-267-6491 COAST GUARD PUBLISHES INTERIM LIFE JACKET RULE TO SAVE CHILDREN FROM DROWNING The United States Coast Guard published an Interim Rule in the June 24, 2002, Federal Register requiring all children under 13 years old to wear a Coast Guard approved life jacket, that fits, when underway on a recreational vessel: unless they are in an enclosed cabin or below decks. The Coast Guard stressed that the rule only applies in those States that currently have no rule requiring children to wear a life jacket. However in those States that possess any requirement, the rule recognizes and adopts that State's requirement. The rule becomes effective December 23, 2002 and provides a comment period that runs through August 23. In addition, it includes an education and public awareness phase that begins July 1 and ends December 31, 2002. This phase will be used to educate the public and encourage boaters to have their children wear a life jacket now, since it can and will save lives. Failure to have a child wear a Coast Guard approved life jacket will be treated the same as not having a life jacket readily available. Penalties may be assessed up to $1,100 maximum for each violation, but typically they would be assessed in the $50 to $250 range per violation. Captain Scott Evans, Chief of the U.S. Coast Guard's Boating Safety Office in Washington, D.C., pointed out, " Some States already have life jacket requirements in place and the age requirements may vary from State to State. The Coast Guard rule recognizes a State's requirements and accepts them as the Federal standard. However, the Coast Guard rule is necessary to protect our children in those States that do not have any requirements. It is designed to ensure that there is a life jacket rule in all States," Evans emphasized. "Every year needless boating deaths impact our children simply because the child was not wearing a life jacket. Between 1995-1998, 105 of our children, under the age of 13 died while boating and 66 of them from drowning. Our latest report shows that 28 children perished while boating in just one year. Too many parents, families, as well as this nation are losing our most cherished gifts to a death that could be prevented in most cases," said Evans. "As parents and as a marine safety agency, our children trust us to protect them and keep them safe. We must deliver. Their safety must always come first. Who in good conscious can argue with a rule whose sole purpose is to protect children and spare parents and families unwarranted grief?" Evans stressed again, "Our youth are already wearing protective gear when roller blading, skateboarding and bicycling. Lifejackets are protective equipment for water related activities and must be worn to be effective. Statistics show that life jackets save lives. Requiring our children to wear life jackets will help protect their lives." For more boating safety information see websites at www.uscg.mil/news
This is what the Feds say check with your state as well. But you know you will have to defer to the wife anyway. If you do convince her that they are not needed in the cabin (I let my kids remove them in the cabin) make sure that they can quickly identify which vest is theirs. If they are all orange it will be tougher to find the one that fits than if each of them have their own color. Having a specific place for them to go is a good idea as well. When things go bad they go real bad real fast. Actually even for adults on the boat I ask them to try on a vest fit it properly and to remember which one is theirs in case they are needed. Interim Life Jacket Rule for Children United States Coast Guard U. S. Coast Guard Headquarters Washington, DC Media Advisory ......Re-issued-June 27, 2002 CAPT SCOTT EVANS CHIEF, BOATING SAFETY 202-267-1077 MS. JO CALKIN BOATING SAFETY OFFICE 202-267-0994 Mr. JAMES "JACK" O'DELL PUBLIC AFFAIRS 202-267-6491 COAST GUARD PUBLISHES INTERIM LIFE JACKET RULE TO SAVE CHILDREN FROM DROWNING The United States Coast Guard published an Interim Rule in the June 24, 2002, Federal Register requiring all children under 13 years old to wear a Coast Guard approved life jacket, that fits, when underway on a recreational vessel: unless they are in an enclosed cabin or below decks. The Coast Guard stressed that the rule only applies in those States that currently have no rule requiring children to wear a life jacket. However in those States that possess any requirement, the rule recognizes and adopts that State's requirement. The rule becomes effective December 23, 2002 and provides a comment period that runs through August 23. In addition, it includes an education and public awareness phase that begins July 1 and ends December 31, 2002. This phase will be used to educate the public and encourage boaters to have their children wear a life jacket now, since it can and will save lives. Failure to have a child wear a Coast Guard approved life jacket will be treated the same as not having a life jacket readily available. Penalties may be assessed up to $1,100 maximum for each violation, but typically they would be assessed in the $50 to $250 range per violation. Captain Scott Evans, Chief of the U.S. Coast Guard's Boating Safety Office in Washington, D.C., pointed out, " Some States already have life jacket requirements in place and the age requirements may vary from State to State. The Coast Guard rule recognizes a State's requirements and accepts them as the Federal standard. However, the Coast Guard rule is necessary to protect our children in those States that do not have any requirements. It is designed to ensure that there is a life jacket rule in all States," Evans emphasized. "Every year needless boating deaths impact our children simply because the child was not wearing a life jacket. Between 1995-1998, 105 of our children, under the age of 13 died while boating and 66 of them from drowning. Our latest report shows that 28 children perished while boating in just one year. Too many parents, families, as well as this nation are losing our most cherished gifts to a death that could be prevented in most cases," said Evans. "As parents and as a marine safety agency, our children trust us to protect them and keep them safe. We must deliver. Their safety must always come first. Who in good conscious can argue with a rule whose sole purpose is to protect children and spare parents and families unwarranted grief?" Evans stressed again, "Our youth are already wearing protective gear when roller blading, skateboarding and bicycling. Lifejackets are protective equipment for water related activities and must be worn to be effective. Statistics show that life jackets save lives. Requiring our children to wear life jackets will help protect their lives." For more boating safety information see websites at www.uscg.mil/news
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Tom
The Law IS a good place to start
But Pete it is not the law in Connecticut that children wear PFD's "at all times unless the boat is at the dock". That is incorrect. The law states that they must wear it when "on deck and underway" (for under 12 y/o) . Which I tend to agree with, I can't see any need while they are down below unless there is a huge storm coming and we are going to abandon ship. Its not like they are going to fall in while down there. Personally I don't totally agree with Peggy, if its nice out and other adults capabale of handling the boat are on the helm then I won't wear a PFD when I go forward. Thats the beauty of Sailing and I hate to think I would be legislated to wearing a PFD ALL the time, even if the conditions permit. Don't get me wrong, when the whether gets nasty, I don't mind putting it on AND a harness if its called for, but not benign conditions What everyone might want to know is that there is a NEW *mandatory* Federal regulation on children wearing PFD's. Effective December 23, 2002 the Federal Register requires all children under 13 years old to wear a Coast Guard approved life jacket, that fits, when underway on a recreational vessel: unless they are in an enclosed cabin or below decks. Take a look at the link below. And Mike these sites are not 100% correct or at least they are misleading . Take NJ for instance. Mandatory Safety Education is NOT required for boat operation I am sure and an Operator Licensing is NOT Mandatory for everywhere in NJ, for instance tidal waters are exempt . So I see 2 obvious mistatements. (I found other mistakes also, for instance NY does not require Mandatory Safety Education, just enough money to purchase a boat and register it !!....believe me I see it all the time out on LI Sound). Oh Dave BTW. I think requiring ALL children under a certain age to wear PFD's on a dingy is a great idea, this is a very easy place for someone to fall in.
But Pete it is not the law in Connecticut that children wear PFD's "at all times unless the boat is at the dock". That is incorrect. The law states that they must wear it when "on deck and underway" (for under 12 y/o) . Which I tend to agree with, I can't see any need while they are down below unless there is a huge storm coming and we are going to abandon ship. Its not like they are going to fall in while down there. Personally I don't totally agree with Peggy, if its nice out and other adults capabale of handling the boat are on the helm then I won't wear a PFD when I go forward. Thats the beauty of Sailing and I hate to think I would be legislated to wearing a PFD ALL the time, even if the conditions permit. Don't get me wrong, when the whether gets nasty, I don't mind putting it on AND a harness if its called for, but not benign conditions What everyone might want to know is that there is a NEW *mandatory* Federal regulation on children wearing PFD's. Effective December 23, 2002 the Federal Register requires all children under 13 years old to wear a Coast Guard approved life jacket, that fits, when underway on a recreational vessel: unless they are in an enclosed cabin or below decks. Take a look at the link below. And Mike these sites are not 100% correct or at least they are misleading . Take NJ for instance. Mandatory Safety Education is NOT required for boat operation I am sure and an Operator Licensing is NOT Mandatory for everywhere in NJ, for instance tidal waters are exempt . So I see 2 obvious mistatements. (I found other mistakes also, for instance NY does not require Mandatory Safety Education, just enough money to purchase a boat and register it !!....believe me I see it all the time out on LI Sound). Oh Dave BTW. I think requiring ALL children under a certain age to wear PFD's on a dingy is a great idea, this is a very easy place for someone to fall in.
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Clyde
PFDs are not a panacea for safe boating
As stated in earlier responses check with your state laws on PFD use for children. The link in Mike's response does not appear to accurately state what the individual state laws are. In Washington state the law requires. "Children 12 years and younger are required to wear U.S. Coast Guard approved life jackets in Washington State: on boats shorter than 19 feet, whenever the vessel is underway, and when on an open deck or open cockpit." Wearing a PFD does not ensure safety by itself. Last summer a Mac 26X capsized drowning two of three children on the boat, all three children were wearing PFDs. The story in the papers stated that the "So Called" captain of the Mac 26X appeared to be drunk. He was motoring the Mac 26X without water in the water ballast tanks with eight adults, three children and a dog. When the boat capsized the child who was saved was below deck in the cabin. The child was found floating in a small pocket of air in the over turned boat. The two other children where found underwater outside the cabin tangled in the boat's rigging and lines. PFDs are not a panacea for safe boating. The main safety feature of any boat is the captain's judgment. Fair Winds. Clyde
As stated in earlier responses check with your state laws on PFD use for children. The link in Mike's response does not appear to accurately state what the individual state laws are. In Washington state the law requires. "Children 12 years and younger are required to wear U.S. Coast Guard approved life jackets in Washington State: on boats shorter than 19 feet, whenever the vessel is underway, and when on an open deck or open cockpit." Wearing a PFD does not ensure safety by itself. Last summer a Mac 26X capsized drowning two of three children on the boat, all three children were wearing PFDs. The story in the papers stated that the "So Called" captain of the Mac 26X appeared to be drunk. He was motoring the Mac 26X without water in the water ballast tanks with eight adults, three children and a dog. When the boat capsized the child who was saved was below deck in the cabin. The child was found floating in a small pocket of air in the over turned boat. The two other children where found underwater outside the cabin tangled in the boat's rigging and lines. PFDs are not a panacea for safe boating. The main safety feature of any boat is the captain's judgment. Fair Winds. Clyde
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Pete
PFD's in the cabin
Dave,after reading some other post I guess I need to clearify that I know the law does not say unless the boat is at the dock.I may have taken a liberty to make my piont about wearing a PFD and kids.So to you and Tom I send apoligies.The point being there is a law that covers this,as Tom stated it appllies "when on deck and underway".I do not want to give you the idea that your kids need to wear a pfd while asleep(below desk)in a calm anchorage.Apparently some took me too literal.You will find it is easier to make you own rules about when and where pfd should be worn(above and beyond laws).My concern is that a kid being below deck and come up above (maybe to see something exciting)and forgets his or her pfd.Now we have a child up on deck with the boat underway and no pfd on.You tell me what are the odds?I would also note that all these law are frustrating to understand,as in Toms post it would seam mandatory because it is a federal regulation however Ricks post has a caveat that it is only for states that do not have a regulation for pfd and children.It also states that Coast Guard "recognize and adopts that State's reguirement".if there are any.At any rate you will work out a system that is above the law (Federal and your Wife's)that you can adjust as everyone gets more familar with your new and bigger boat!Good Luck!!!
Dave,after reading some other post I guess I need to clearify that I know the law does not say unless the boat is at the dock.I may have taken a liberty to make my piont about wearing a PFD and kids.So to you and Tom I send apoligies.The point being there is a law that covers this,as Tom stated it appllies "when on deck and underway".I do not want to give you the idea that your kids need to wear a pfd while asleep(below desk)in a calm anchorage.Apparently some took me too literal.You will find it is easier to make you own rules about when and where pfd should be worn(above and beyond laws).My concern is that a kid being below deck and come up above (maybe to see something exciting)and forgets his or her pfd.Now we have a child up on deck with the boat underway and no pfd on.You tell me what are the odds?I would also note that all these law are frustrating to understand,as in Toms post it would seam mandatory because it is a federal regulation however Ricks post has a caveat that it is only for states that do not have a regulation for pfd and children.It also states that Coast Guard "recognize and adopts that State's reguirement".if there are any.At any rate you will work out a system that is above the law (Federal and your Wife's)that you can adjust as everyone gets more familar with your new and bigger boat!Good Luck!!!
on the dock and outside the cabin.
At our marina, they require all children 12 & under to have a lifejacket on while on the docks. Most of the kids just walk around the marina with them on. It is a little tough to have them wear them while sailing on a nice calm day unless mom & dad are also willing to wear them, but you are the boss. Once the weather pipes up they should be wearing them while on deck. I do not know if your Ms. expects the kids to sleep in them. If she does, that will probably be the end of the kids wanting to sail. If she does not require them to sleep in them, then why do they need them while they are below. Ask her to set at the salon table and eat a sandwich with a PFD on. As far as wearing them in the dingy, this is really a good idea for children and adults. This is especially important if you take the kids out without an adult. Depending on the ability of the child, you may drown before the dink gets back to you. Just remember that she is looking out for the children. Mothers have a much different outlook on what is fun and what is safety. I am sure that there will be a great meeting of the minds.
At our marina, they require all children 12 & under to have a lifejacket on while on the docks. Most of the kids just walk around the marina with them on. It is a little tough to have them wear them while sailing on a nice calm day unless mom & dad are also willing to wear them, but you are the boss. Once the weather pipes up they should be wearing them while on deck. I do not know if your Ms. expects the kids to sleep in them. If she does, that will probably be the end of the kids wanting to sail. If she does not require them to sleep in them, then why do they need them while they are below. Ask her to set at the salon table and eat a sandwich with a PFD on. As far as wearing them in the dingy, this is really a good idea for children and adults. This is especially important if you take the kids out without an adult. Depending on the ability of the child, you may drown before the dink gets back to you. Just remember that she is looking out for the children. Mothers have a much different outlook on what is fun and what is safety. I am sure that there will be a great meeting of the minds.
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LaDonna Bubak - CatalinaOwners.com
ALWAYS wear PFDs in a dink!!
Lots of speed combined with quick turns can result in tragedy if you're not wearing a PFD, child & adult alike. I always wear my inflatable in the dinghy. As far as kids wearing PFDs below deck - sorry but that's a little ridiculous. We're talking about an enclosed cabin! I like the suggestion of making her cook, go to the bathroom, take a nap, etc. in one similar to what the kids would wear. On deck, there should be no question until all parties are comfortable (including mom), but below? Sheesh! Good luck!! LaDonna
Lots of speed combined with quick turns can result in tragedy if you're not wearing a PFD, child & adult alike. I always wear my inflatable in the dinghy. As far as kids wearing PFDs below deck - sorry but that's a little ridiculous. We're talking about an enclosed cabin! I like the suggestion of making her cook, go to the bathroom, take a nap, etc. in one similar to what the kids would wear. On deck, there should be no question until all parties are comfortable (including mom), but below? Sheesh! Good luck!! LaDonna
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John New
Generally, yes
I have my 13 and 10 year old sons wear their PFDs at all times in the dink and on deck and in the cockpit when underway. If they are going to be spending a prolonged period below, they can take their PFDs off, but most of the time, they're pretty active, going below only for a limited period of time (e.g., to use the head) and so the PFDs stay on. In fair weather, they wear the lightweight vest type, which allows freedom of movement and are quite comfortable. They've grown so used to them that they never complain, it's just a normal part of sailing.
I have my 13 and 10 year old sons wear their PFDs at all times in the dink and on deck and in the cockpit when underway. If they are going to be spending a prolonged period below, they can take their PFDs off, but most of the time, they're pretty active, going below only for a limited period of time (e.g., to use the head) and so the PFDs stay on. In fair weather, they wear the lightweight vest type, which allows freedom of movement and are quite comfortable. They've grown so used to them that they never complain, it's just a normal part of sailing.
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Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Most cautious person wins on my boat
My ground rule on my boat (and my girlfriend and my ground rule around the house) is always that the most conservative person wins. So - If one person wants jackets worn and one doesn't, on they go. If one person wants the light out in the bedroom and one doesn't off it goes. Saves a ton of grief. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
My ground rule on my boat (and my girlfriend and my ground rule around the house) is always that the most conservative person wins. So - If one person wants jackets worn and one doesn't, on they go. If one person wants the light out in the bedroom and one doesn't off it goes. Saves a ton of grief. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
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Ric Shultz
Don't end up solo
My kids are 9 and 13. The 13 is a great swimmer. The 9 so/so. My wife, and my rule is PFD's outside the cockpit while under way. Sitting in the cock pit, below and at anchor not necessary. Other kids on board (I don't know thier skills and don't want to embarass anyone), or challenging conditions, everyone wears them above deck. If my wife says put them on, they do. This system works great. If the guard approches, they put them on. Your wife and kids must enjoy sailing. Take them out under good conditions (don't scare them at first)and you will find your comfort zone as a family. If its not fun and safe, you will be sailing solo.
My kids are 9 and 13. The 13 is a great swimmer. The 9 so/so. My wife, and my rule is PFD's outside the cockpit while under way. Sitting in the cock pit, below and at anchor not necessary. Other kids on board (I don't know thier skills and don't want to embarass anyone), or challenging conditions, everyone wears them above deck. If my wife says put them on, they do. This system works great. If the guard approches, they put them on. Your wife and kids must enjoy sailing. Take them out under good conditions (don't scare them at first)and you will find your comfort zone as a family. If its not fun and safe, you will be sailing solo.
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Dave Johndrow
SOSpenders
It so happens that I also have a 7 and 13 year old. I have the 7 year old were her PFD all the time. My son (13) wore his occasionally but what I found was that the SOSpenders were so comfortable that the kids didn't mind or really even notice them. So it gave my wife and I the peace of mind that they had them on and didn't restrict them or get in the way. If you can swing the price of the automatic ones it's the way to go. I would'nt waste my money on the manual ones.
It so happens that I also have a 7 and 13 year old. I have the 7 year old were her PFD all the time. My son (13) wore his occasionally but what I found was that the SOSpenders were so comfortable that the kids didn't mind or really even notice them. So it gave my wife and I the peace of mind that they had them on and didn't restrict them or get in the way. If you can swing the price of the automatic ones it's the way to go. I would'nt waste my money on the manual ones.
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