77% of responding Hunter owners would rather carry gel cell batteries if price were no object, according to last week's Quick Quiz. What drives you to choose low maintenance over longevity? A long drive to the boat? More time on the water instead of at the dock? Or, are your wet cells simply hard to reach and maintain? Share your power opinions here.
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No hassle.
I have three group 30 gel cell batteries from West Marine. Two of the units were installed in June of 1990 and the third one was about 1996. These batteries cost about $210 each. The batteries on a H'31 are easy enough to get to, but we live 175 miles from the boat and often do not get down in the winter more than once every 4-8 weeks. Considering what we spent for these batteries and the service they have provided they are trully a good investment. The down side of this is for someone that has electrical problems and is killing their batteries because of a bad charger or alternator. This could be a very expensive proposition.
I have three group 30 gel cell batteries from West Marine. Two of the units were installed in June of 1990 and the third one was about 1996. These batteries cost about $210 each. The batteries on a H'31 are easy enough to get to, but we live 175 miles from the boat and often do not get down in the winter more than once every 4-8 weeks. Considering what we spent for these batteries and the service they have provided they are trully a good investment. The down side of this is for someone that has electrical problems and is killing their batteries because of a bad charger or alternator. This could be a very expensive proposition.
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Bob E.
Unlimited funds
If cost were no object, I'd do a lot of things differently. I probably wouldn't own a Hunter sailboat. You are drawing an unfair conclusion from the question. Cost is always an object, and I'll bet that the majority of owners have wet cell batteries. The cost is more than just replacing the batteries -- there is also the alternator and battery charger modifications required by gel bateries.
If cost were no object, I'd do a lot of things differently. I probably wouldn't own a Hunter sailboat. You are drawing an unfair conclusion from the question. Cost is always an object, and I'll bet that the majority of owners have wet cell batteries. The cost is more than just replacing the batteries -- there is also the alternator and battery charger modifications required by gel bateries.
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Guest
Figure of speach, so to speak!
Bob E.: The difference in price is for a fact that the gell cells are cheaper over a period of time. I would like to know how many boaters buy $50 cheapo batteries and how often they end up replacing them. Many of the new battery chargers have a jumper or a switch for the different battery types so there is no additional cost. There is nothing to change in the alternator. The charger that I have on my boat is a Pro Mariner 20 or 30 that will charge 3 battery banks. I was un-informed when I bought my charger and gel cells. My battery charger is not even designed for gels and they have been there for 9+ years (I assume that the charger is not putting out the correct voltage). The other major advantage is not having battery failure so often as with the "inexpensive" wet cell units. No spillage, no acid burns on me or the upholstery and carpet etc, etc. So depending on your point of view, which batteries are "really" the least expensive?
Bob E.: The difference in price is for a fact that the gell cells are cheaper over a period of time. I would like to know how many boaters buy $50 cheapo batteries and how often they end up replacing them. Many of the new battery chargers have a jumper or a switch for the different battery types so there is no additional cost. There is nothing to change in the alternator. The charger that I have on my boat is a Pro Mariner 20 or 30 that will charge 3 battery banks. I was un-informed when I bought my charger and gel cells. My battery charger is not even designed for gels and they have been there for 9+ years (I assume that the charger is not putting out the correct voltage). The other major advantage is not having battery failure so often as with the "inexpensive" wet cell units. No spillage, no acid burns on me or the upholstery and carpet etc, etc. So depending on your point of view, which batteries are "really" the least expensive?
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Ed Schenck
Gels are better.
On my boat there were two gels and two wet-cells. The wets were completely inaccessible and had to be removed for the winter. Now the two batteries in the bottom of the boat are gels and they never have to be moved or looked at. I eliminated the wet-cells and added a third gel, one for starter, two for the house. They can be mounted anywhere and at any angle and they are compact for the amount of amp-hours. Original equipment alternators can't hurt them and my Freedom 20 keeps them topped off. One less problem to deal with.
On my boat there were two gels and two wet-cells. The wets were completely inaccessible and had to be removed for the winter. Now the two batteries in the bottom of the boat are gels and they never have to be moved or looked at. I eliminated the wet-cells and added a third gel, one for starter, two for the house. They can be mounted anywhere and at any angle and they are compact for the amount of amp-hours. Original equipment alternators can't hurt them and my Freedom 20 keeps them topped off. One less problem to deal with.
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Justin Wolfe
Stickin' w/ wets
Our 4 "cheapo" $60 6V batteries only lasted 12 years. What a rip off! Personally, assuming proper maintenance I don't believe gel cells will ever be less expensive to own. Easier yes, but less expensive I don't think so. Just the projected number of cycles for 6V vs. gels speaks to that. If price were no object AGM's or Ni-Cads would be the choice.
Our 4 "cheapo" $60 6V batteries only lasted 12 years. What a rip off! Personally, assuming proper maintenance I don't believe gel cells will ever be less expensive to own. Easier yes, but less expensive I don't think so. Just the projected number of cycles for 6V vs. gels speaks to that. If price were no object AGM's or Ni-Cads would be the choice.
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Clyde Lichtenwalner
The maintenance rub
Proper maintenance of flooded batteries is the rub. Many boats have their stock batteries in places you'd sooner forget. In my case all it takes to service the batteries (H-34) is to unload a locker and stand on you head for half an hour, or more, while trying to direct half a gallon, or more, of distilled water into three or four batteries. I have ruined clothing worth the cost of one battery during the maintenance process. I pulled the plug on flooded batteries six years ago, and haven't had one lick of maintenance since; not even corrosion on the terminals. I leave the batteries on the boat over the winter and see 12.8V in December when the boat is covered and 12.8v in March when uncovered with no charging in between. They also accept a charge at a noticably higher rate than flooded batteries. Is that worth sometihing? Even with diligent maintenance, I have never had flooded 12V batteries last one season beyond their warrenty. On the other hand, AGMs may be worth a look when the time comes to replace the gels - I hear they charge even faster. By then the price of AGMs may have fallen.
Proper maintenance of flooded batteries is the rub. Many boats have their stock batteries in places you'd sooner forget. In my case all it takes to service the batteries (H-34) is to unload a locker and stand on you head for half an hour, or more, while trying to direct half a gallon, or more, of distilled water into three or four batteries. I have ruined clothing worth the cost of one battery during the maintenance process. I pulled the plug on flooded batteries six years ago, and haven't had one lick of maintenance since; not even corrosion on the terminals. I leave the batteries on the boat over the winter and see 12.8V in December when the boat is covered and 12.8v in March when uncovered with no charging in between. They also accept a charge at a noticably higher rate than flooded batteries. Is that worth sometihing? Even with diligent maintenance, I have never had flooded 12V batteries last one season beyond their warrenty. On the other hand, AGMs may be worth a look when the time comes to replace the gels - I hear they charge even faster. By then the price of AGMs may have fallen.
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Dakota Jim Russell
Gel Charging Requirements ?
But don't the gels require alternators and chargers to be set differently so as not to ruin them?
But don't the gels require alternators and chargers to be set differently so as not to ruin them?
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Ed Schenck
Yes... and no.
My boat had a Heart Freedom 20 complete with manuals when I bought her. I verified that the Freedon 20 switches were correctly set for gels. So I was not concerned about shorepower charging. But I was concerned about charging from the alternator. That is until I studied the Yanmar manual and realized how little voltage was generated with the stock alternator(35 amps) and the built-in regulator. Not an issue. When(if) I install a good 80+ amp alternator I will also have to buy a good external regulator, probably a 3-stage.
My boat had a Heart Freedom 20 complete with manuals when I bought her. I verified that the Freedon 20 switches were correctly set for gels. So I was not concerned about shorepower charging. But I was concerned about charging from the alternator. That is until I studied the Yanmar manual and realized how little voltage was generated with the stock alternator(35 amps) and the built-in regulator. Not an issue. When(if) I install a good 80+ amp alternator I will also have to buy a good external regulator, probably a 3-stage.
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Michael Cohn
Using both...
I use both wet cells and gels - wet for the house batteries, and gels for engine starting, genset starting, and the anchor windlass. Yes, it does require separate charging systems, but I think it's worth it. The house batteries get the most use (charge/discharge), and wet cells are definitely superior in this regard. I use a bank of 4 125 AH 6 volt golf cart batteries. I finally replaced my first set after 8 years. The batteries are located under a settee in the main cabin for easy maintenance. The gels are in places that are really difficult to get to, so - I just use gels. I wouldn't use gel for house batteries, and I would never use wet cells in the places where my gels live because they would be too damn hard to maintain...and I would also never use the same battery bank for house and starting purposes, although I DID build an emergency bypass circuit so I can start my main engine off my house bank if I have to. Just my .02 cents worth MC
I use both wet cells and gels - wet for the house batteries, and gels for engine starting, genset starting, and the anchor windlass. Yes, it does require separate charging systems, but I think it's worth it. The house batteries get the most use (charge/discharge), and wet cells are definitely superior in this regard. I use a bank of 4 125 AH 6 volt golf cart batteries. I finally replaced my first set after 8 years. The batteries are located under a settee in the main cabin for easy maintenance. The gels are in places that are really difficult to get to, so - I just use gels. I wouldn't use gel for house batteries, and I would never use wet cells in the places where my gels live because they would be too damn hard to maintain...and I would also never use the same battery bank for house and starting purposes, although I DID build an emergency bypass circuit so I can start my main engine off my house bank if I have to. Just my .02 cents worth MC
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Brad Cavedo
Why need regulator for gel batteries?
Ok, maybe this will show how stupid I am, but here goes. On the Hunter P 42 there is an 80 amp alternator. We have gel batteries and have set the Heart 2000 for the gel setting. We do not have a 3 stage regulator on the 80 amp alternator because I decided that was not necessary. Ed Schenck's post now has me wondering. Here's why. The Heart regulator regulates the VOLTAGE that goes to the batteries, and gel's require slightly different voltage that wet cells. the voltage from the alternator is constant and within the range that is acceptable for the gels, to my understanding. Why would increasing the alternator from 35 amps to 80 amps require a 3 stage regulator if you had gels? Isnt the voltage of the alternator at about 12.8 volts?? Why does that need regulating? The Heart shifts its voltage around, from about 14 to the float of 12.8, I think. The alternator amperage at 80 amps is not that great that it needs regulating, is it? I mean with all the DC systems running anyway absorbing some of that. and dont gels have the capacity to absorb lots of amps. From shore power, the heart 2000 hits them with about 3 hours at 90 amps and 13.8 voltage, I think. I can see what the voltage would have to be reduced downward from that. But why does an alternator at 12.8 need to be reduced? So, whats the answer??????
Ok, maybe this will show how stupid I am, but here goes. On the Hunter P 42 there is an 80 amp alternator. We have gel batteries and have set the Heart 2000 for the gel setting. We do not have a 3 stage regulator on the 80 amp alternator because I decided that was not necessary. Ed Schenck's post now has me wondering. Here's why. The Heart regulator regulates the VOLTAGE that goes to the batteries, and gel's require slightly different voltage that wet cells. the voltage from the alternator is constant and within the range that is acceptable for the gels, to my understanding. Why would increasing the alternator from 35 amps to 80 amps require a 3 stage regulator if you had gels? Isnt the voltage of the alternator at about 12.8 volts?? Why does that need regulating? The Heart shifts its voltage around, from about 14 to the float of 12.8, I think. The alternator amperage at 80 amps is not that great that it needs regulating, is it? I mean with all the DC systems running anyway absorbing some of that. and dont gels have the capacity to absorb lots of amps. From shore power, the heart 2000 hits them with about 3 hours at 90 amps and 13.8 voltage, I think. I can see what the voltage would have to be reduced downward from that. But why does an alternator at 12.8 need to be reduced? So, whats the answer??????
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Clyde Lichtenwalner
Regulators
Brad If I understand your post, the Heart Interface charges your batteries on shore power (or 120V generator), but does not regulate your alternator. All alternators must have regulators. Unregulated, your boat (or car) alternator can put out hundreds of volts. The stock alternator supplied with your Yanmar probably has an automotive type regulator built in. These regulators do a great job of keeping a starting or car battery charged, but are totally inadequate for a cruising sailboat. If your gels are discharged to, say, 50% and you are recharging using the stock alternator and regulator,you will see a decent charge rate for ten or fifteen minutes after starting. But after that the regulator will taper the charge to, as you observed, about 12.8V - 13.2V. At that voltage the charge rate will be low and your batteries will only reach full charge after many, many hours of running - probably never. The three stage regulator raises the charge voltage to 14 - 14.1 for gels (14.4 or so for flooded) batteries if it can, and maintains that voltage until the current accepted by the batteries falls to some low level (say 4 or 5 amps). At that point, a smart regulator will drop the alternator output voltage to 13.7 or so for gels, and 13.2 or so for flooded batteries. At these voltages charge is maintained. This keeps the batteries from over charging. The whole point of the smart regualtors is to charge the batteries as quickly (read that efficiently) as possible without overcharging. Old design, externally adjustable regulators could be set to maintain only one voltage. So to be safe, they were often set at about 13.2 to 14 volts so that charge rates were about 10% to 20% of total battery capacity (40 to 80 amps for a 400 amp-hr bank). These compromise settings were chosen so as to not ruin batteries from over charging. Flooded batteries can safely accept much higher charge rates (40-80% of battery capacity)in the early part of the charge cycle. Todays mega alternators can put out that kind of amperage, and with a modern regulator not cook the batteries when they are fully chaged. Smart regulators are NOT NECESSARY for gel batteries, but will improve the performance of the system. Just be sure that gels never see more than 14.1 volts.
Brad If I understand your post, the Heart Interface charges your batteries on shore power (or 120V generator), but does not regulate your alternator. All alternators must have regulators. Unregulated, your boat (or car) alternator can put out hundreds of volts. The stock alternator supplied with your Yanmar probably has an automotive type regulator built in. These regulators do a great job of keeping a starting or car battery charged, but are totally inadequate for a cruising sailboat. If your gels are discharged to, say, 50% and you are recharging using the stock alternator and regulator,you will see a decent charge rate for ten or fifteen minutes after starting. But after that the regulator will taper the charge to, as you observed, about 12.8V - 13.2V. At that voltage the charge rate will be low and your batteries will only reach full charge after many, many hours of running - probably never. The three stage regulator raises the charge voltage to 14 - 14.1 for gels (14.4 or so for flooded) batteries if it can, and maintains that voltage until the current accepted by the batteries falls to some low level (say 4 or 5 amps). At that point, a smart regulator will drop the alternator output voltage to 13.7 or so for gels, and 13.2 or so for flooded batteries. At these voltages charge is maintained. This keeps the batteries from over charging. The whole point of the smart regualtors is to charge the batteries as quickly (read that efficiently) as possible without overcharging. Old design, externally adjustable regulators could be set to maintain only one voltage. So to be safe, they were often set at about 13.2 to 14 volts so that charge rates were about 10% to 20% of total battery capacity (40 to 80 amps for a 400 amp-hr bank). These compromise settings were chosen so as to not ruin batteries from over charging. Flooded batteries can safely accept much higher charge rates (40-80% of battery capacity)in the early part of the charge cycle. Todays mega alternators can put out that kind of amperage, and with a modern regulator not cook the batteries when they are fully chaged. Smart regulators are NOT NECESSARY for gel batteries, but will improve the performance of the system. Just be sure that gels never see more than 14.1 volts.
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Ed Schenck
Correct.
Clyde is correct, the Heart Inverter/Charger only controls the battery charging from shorepower. Your alternator is connected directly to at least one battery. And the older Hunters used a small alternator(Hitachi?) with a built in regulator that could not hurt a Gel(and also not charge it/them very well). Are the newer Hunters the same?
Clyde is correct, the Heart Inverter/Charger only controls the battery charging from shorepower. Your alternator is connected directly to at least one battery. And the older Hunters used a small alternator(Hitachi?) with a built in regulator that could not hurt a Gel(and also not charge it/them very well). Are the newer Hunters the same?
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