I have been sailing and raceing most of my life. Last year I bought a 1990 Hunter Legend 40 in San Diego, CA. I race in the Long Beach, CA area. The boat did not come with any sails or rigging to do any kind of raceing. I set out to purchase at least a minimum inventory of quality sails to race with. The big name and the small name sailmakers here in Southern California quoted me prices 2 to 3 and a half times the price of what I could purchase the same quality kevlar or better sails from a sailmaker I found back east. The owner of this loft in the New York area informed me he used to work for a big name sailmaker in San Diego many years ago and left the area to move to the New York area to start his own loft. The sails I have gotten from him are superb and as fast or faster than anything I would have purchased here in So-Cal. He told me that southern California sailmakers have all overpriced their sails considerably and that none of the poor sailors here in so-cal knows any better for quality raceing sails. I want to know why the big sailmakers in particular have priced themselves out of the market. My god, is there that kind of profit. These sailmakers out here should have six-guns strapped to their waists and hankercheifs over their noses and mouths. Is it also true that to be a sailmaker these days all ya gotta do is buy a software program from amongst the few latest and greatest and a plotter and or a plotter/cutter and hire a seamstress and away you go off to makeing sails as good as anyone can? Sailmakeing does not seem to be the art and science it used to be. Any light you can shed on these issues would be of interest to me.
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Don Berger
It's "making" and "racing"
and most use "G"od. On the sustance of the issue, my cousin, who has lived on both coasts, is convinced that most things boat-related are more espensive on the left coast. Don p.s. sorry but I had to do it...
and most use "G"od. On the sustance of the issue, my cousin, who has lived on both coasts, is convinced that most things boat-related are more espensive on the left coast. Don p.s. sorry but I had to do it...
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Bill Colombo
Competitive Pricing
Andy, I don't know if you've noticed but the cost of living in California seems higher than the national average. I don't know what you do for a living but I can assure you that I know most of the West Coast sailmakers and none of them are giving Larry Ellison a run for his money. Having said that I can tell you that as far as Doyle is concerned the prices are the same everywhere in the US. We feel our prices are reasonable and competitive. I have quoted thousands of sails and have never been lowballed by a competitor to the tune of 70% less. There is simply not that much profit in a sail. Something does not make sense here. Maybe the east coast sailmaker gave you such a huge discount because he knew he would never have to provide any local style service. Thanks, Bill Colombo Doyle Sailmakers
Andy, I don't know if you've noticed but the cost of living in California seems higher than the national average. I don't know what you do for a living but I can assure you that I know most of the West Coast sailmakers and none of them are giving Larry Ellison a run for his money. Having said that I can tell you that as far as Doyle is concerned the prices are the same everywhere in the US. We feel our prices are reasonable and competitive. I have quoted thousands of sails and have never been lowballed by a competitor to the tune of 70% less. There is simply not that much profit in a sail. Something does not make sense here. Maybe the east coast sailmaker gave you such a huge discount because he knew he would never have to provide any local style service. Thanks, Bill Colombo Doyle Sailmakers
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Chip
Why did you remove my response?
In my response I didn't mention anything about my company. Giving Doyle the benefit of the doubt. www.pointsails.com
In my response I didn't mention anything about my company. Giving Doyle the benefit of the doubt. www.pointsails.com
Maybe because you are trying to get a free ad?
Chip: Maybe your post was removed because you are trying to a free Ad spot? Do you own the company or work for them?
Chip: Maybe your post was removed because you are trying to a free Ad spot? Do you own the company or work for them?
Not a big difference in price for the same prod.
Andy: While I am sure that you may have found outragous prices on sails, that has NOT been my experience. I actually did some research and priced out the same sail at different lofts. When I say the same sail, that may not be exactly the fact. If you talk to some sailors they can tell you that one sail is better than the other...... What I am speaking of is the SAME materials, and features. Using the same manufacturers cloth at the same weight, the same number of reefs, batten pockets etc. When I did this, the prices where within a couple of hundred dollars for the same main sail. The cheap one was from Lee Sails which are made in Asia. The savings must come from the savings in labor. The difference between $3/hr and $20-25/hr will add up fast. Then we need to add workmans comp (which I doubt there is any such thing in Asia) we start to see the difference. This does not take into account that there are reports of these offshore sailmakers using inferior threads (I have no idea if that is true or not). When I consider that a sail last for probably 10 years, I would just as soon spend and extra $30/yr for an American made product. This also give me the satisfaction of having someone to bitch at locally if someone goes wrong with the product. Check around and you will see that the number of lofts has diminished greatly in the last 2-3 years. It may not be too long before the only sails available will be made offshore.
Andy: While I am sure that you may have found outragous prices on sails, that has NOT been my experience. I actually did some research and priced out the same sail at different lofts. When I say the same sail, that may not be exactly the fact. If you talk to some sailors they can tell you that one sail is better than the other...... What I am speaking of is the SAME materials, and features. Using the same manufacturers cloth at the same weight, the same number of reefs, batten pockets etc. When I did this, the prices where within a couple of hundred dollars for the same main sail. The cheap one was from Lee Sails which are made in Asia. The savings must come from the savings in labor. The difference between $3/hr and $20-25/hr will add up fast. Then we need to add workmans comp (which I doubt there is any such thing in Asia) we start to see the difference. This does not take into account that there are reports of these offshore sailmakers using inferior threads (I have no idea if that is true or not). When I consider that a sail last for probably 10 years, I would just as soon spend and extra $30/yr for an American made product. This also give me the satisfaction of having someone to bitch at locally if someone goes wrong with the product. Check around and you will see that the number of lofts has diminished greatly in the last 2-3 years. It may not be too long before the only sails available will be made offshore.
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Chip
Offshore Sailmaking: They all play the game.
All of the big names purchase from overseas. North Sails has a production loft in Sri Lanka. Ullman Sails has sails built for them in China. UK Sailmakers build sails in China and Mexico. Doyle Sails build OEM sails in Barbados. Quantum and Halsey Lidgard build or have had built sails in South Africa.
All of the big names purchase from overseas. North Sails has a production loft in Sri Lanka. Ullman Sails has sails built for them in China. UK Sailmakers build sails in China and Mexico. Doyle Sails build OEM sails in Barbados. Quantum and Halsey Lidgard build or have had built sails in South Africa.
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Michele Stevens
There are still some "traditional"sailmakers left!
I just signed on and read your comments about "Big Loft"sail prices. As an independent sail maker I find the general public think that just because they pay a high price for a sail means it is superior to all other sails. I construct sails the way I watched my grandfather, Harold Stevens, constructed and the way my father, Robert Stevens, has taught me to construct sails. I think you need to know what is involved in making a sail work before you buy a computer and hang out a shingle! Kindest regards, Michele Stevens Michele Stevens Sailloft Ltd.
I just signed on and read your comments about "Big Loft"sail prices. As an independent sail maker I find the general public think that just because they pay a high price for a sail means it is superior to all other sails. I construct sails the way I watched my grandfather, Harold Stevens, constructed and the way my father, Robert Stevens, has taught me to construct sails. I think you need to know what is involved in making a sail work before you buy a computer and hang out a shingle! Kindest regards, Michele Stevens Michele Stevens Sailloft Ltd.
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