At a boat show recently and went for a ride on an H216. My wife loved it (I have been sailing for 5 years on JY15's and Lasers), she has previously refused to go out a second time on any of these with me because they are too tippy/tender and uncomfortable. However, after the sail on the 216 my wife wanted to buy on the spot. The 216 is too big (and expensive) for our purposes but I had previously heard good things about both the 146 and 170. The salesman assured us that the 170 is a very stable boat becuase of its weighted centerboard, beam, and hull design. We are going to pick it up on Friday. Now after reading some of these postings I am worried about whether my wife will feel comfortable after all. The dangers of impulse buying... Anyone want to reassure me??
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170
our son and his wife sail in wisconsin on one of the many lakes and love the boat. he has been sailing since he was in the oven. our granddaughter who is now one year old is continuing in her father's tradition
our son and his wife sail in wisconsin on one of the many lakes and love the boat. he has been sailing since he was in the oven. our granddaughter who is now one year old is continuing in her father's tradition
Good purchase
David, Congrats on the 170 purchase! I own a gorgeous '99 model (with the original, lighter ---by all of 25 lbs.!!-- centerboard that's rued by some in the Forum Archives) and I'll tell ya, the 170s a great boat, and should serve you well. You've sailed Lasers so you know how to spill sail when puffs overwhelm. My early 170 is super-responsive to puffs and its main has to be reefed above 15knots to stay in control (singlehanding- no crew for added ballast). But I had chance to sail my cousin's 2003 170 in MN this summer and it IS more stable than the originals you might have been reading about. Go for it, man, you and your wife will love it. It's four times roomier than a Laser, stable so long as you reduce or spill sail in the big stuff and a blast to drop sails and swim off of. Hiking as in Laser can't be done effectively on the 170. Ironically its rounded gunwale shape and relative girth obviate attempts (at least by my usually singlehanded self) at bringing her down with a good hike. I actually rigged hiking straps on my 170 and they failed to remotely emulate the Laser hiking straps security, yet effectiveness. On my dad's Laser I can hike out so just my calves and feet are still in the boat-- not on the 170. One other note, when you're in steady stuff around 15mph or so, you'll notice that the jib overpowers the mainsail, swinging the boat off the wind and onto a reach or worse. I'm convinced Hunter/JY missed the sail area/sail foot placement correlations between jib and main (probably due to the high, tacking-friendly boom) when they designed the boat. The boat will be overpowered with leehelm if you fly too much jib in heavy air. Best to roller-reef in the jib in just slightly...reduce from it's full 55 sq ft to something like 35 or even 25 sq ft and the helm will balance out. To roller-reef effectively though, make sure that your rig is tuned drum-tight, otherwise the entire rig (shrouds, mast, boom) will shudder as big puffs hit. Heavy and potentially hazardous leehelm is the only quirk I've found in this excellent boat. One aside, the 170 bogs down on mainsail alone, and won't point high, so try to keep the jib in the game (if only reefed to 15 sq ft) as long as you can. BTW, the (slightly) "weighted centerboard, hull design and beam of the 170" hardly contribute to the 170s stability, as your dealer alleges... the boat is a higher performance daysailer, and needs proper sail handling and crew ballast to maintain stability (and speed). JY's smooth, Laser-like hull bottom and smooth (albeit wide) beam don't contribute much at all to the boat's stability. Most daysailers this size are actually more stable than the 170, but few are nearly as FUN. Have fun and just spill some sail when things get a little too spirited ;o) Full sails, Mike s/v Lil Sport
David, Congrats on the 170 purchase! I own a gorgeous '99 model (with the original, lighter ---by all of 25 lbs.!!-- centerboard that's rued by some in the Forum Archives) and I'll tell ya, the 170s a great boat, and should serve you well. You've sailed Lasers so you know how to spill sail when puffs overwhelm. My early 170 is super-responsive to puffs and its main has to be reefed above 15knots to stay in control (singlehanding- no crew for added ballast). But I had chance to sail my cousin's 2003 170 in MN this summer and it IS more stable than the originals you might have been reading about. Go for it, man, you and your wife will love it. It's four times roomier than a Laser, stable so long as you reduce or spill sail in the big stuff and a blast to drop sails and swim off of. Hiking as in Laser can't be done effectively on the 170. Ironically its rounded gunwale shape and relative girth obviate attempts (at least by my usually singlehanded self) at bringing her down with a good hike. I actually rigged hiking straps on my 170 and they failed to remotely emulate the Laser hiking straps security, yet effectiveness. On my dad's Laser I can hike out so just my calves and feet are still in the boat-- not on the 170. One other note, when you're in steady stuff around 15mph or so, you'll notice that the jib overpowers the mainsail, swinging the boat off the wind and onto a reach or worse. I'm convinced Hunter/JY missed the sail area/sail foot placement correlations between jib and main (probably due to the high, tacking-friendly boom) when they designed the boat. The boat will be overpowered with leehelm if you fly too much jib in heavy air. Best to roller-reef in the jib in just slightly...reduce from it's full 55 sq ft to something like 35 or even 25 sq ft and the helm will balance out. To roller-reef effectively though, make sure that your rig is tuned drum-tight, otherwise the entire rig (shrouds, mast, boom) will shudder as big puffs hit. Heavy and potentially hazardous leehelm is the only quirk I've found in this excellent boat. One aside, the 170 bogs down on mainsail alone, and won't point high, so try to keep the jib in the game (if only reefed to 15 sq ft) as long as you can. BTW, the (slightly) "weighted centerboard, hull design and beam of the 170" hardly contribute to the 170s stability, as your dealer alleges... the boat is a higher performance daysailer, and needs proper sail handling and crew ballast to maintain stability (and speed). JY's smooth, Laser-like hull bottom and smooth (albeit wide) beam don't contribute much at all to the boat's stability. Most daysailers this size are actually more stable than the 170, but few are nearly as FUN. Have fun and just spill some sail when things get a little too spirited ;o) Full sails, Mike s/v Lil Sport
Enjoy your new 170!
The 170 is nothing like the 216 - the 170 is a dinghy and the 216 is a small "keel" boat. I haven't sailed the 216, but I've been in one and it's much heavier than the 170 - over 2,000 lbs if I remember correctly. I imagine it's also more stable because of the additional ballast in the keel. To keep from scaring the wife and grandchildren, sail in steady winds of 15K or less, at least until you and the crew are comfortable in stronger conditions. I've spooked my wife and young children a couple of times in gusty conditions - they didn't shift or I didn't ease the main quickly enough and we rolled waaaaay over - but fortunately no one got wet. It's a terrific boat to learn in - forgiving for beginners and novices (see previous sentence). It's easy to move around in, relatively stable for a dinghy and you don't have to worry about getting whacked in the head by the boom. Its also roomy enough for 4 adults and a kid or two. If your wife can tolerate the instability that is inherent in a dinghy like this, it should provide you a lot of enjoyment. Be sure to let us know how you like it once you get yours on the water.
The 170 is nothing like the 216 - the 170 is a dinghy and the 216 is a small "keel" boat. I haven't sailed the 216, but I've been in one and it's much heavier than the 170 - over 2,000 lbs if I remember correctly. I imagine it's also more stable because of the additional ballast in the keel. To keep from scaring the wife and grandchildren, sail in steady winds of 15K or less, at least until you and the crew are comfortable in stronger conditions. I've spooked my wife and young children a couple of times in gusty conditions - they didn't shift or I didn't ease the main quickly enough and we rolled waaaaay over - but fortunately no one got wet. It's a terrific boat to learn in - forgiving for beginners and novices (see previous sentence). It's easy to move around in, relatively stable for a dinghy and you don't have to worry about getting whacked in the head by the boom. Its also roomy enough for 4 adults and a kid or two. If your wife can tolerate the instability that is inherent in a dinghy like this, it should provide you a lot of enjoyment. Be sure to let us know how you like it once you get yours on the water.
Harder to tip than you might think
We have a 2002 and have never tipped it over. We came very close once during the first year and buried the rail but managed to keep it upright. This year, I was out with my sons and my youngest was at the helm. We got hit with an unplanned gibe and did a complete 360 degree turn because my son had cleated the mainsheet. Instinctively, we all dove to the center, my oldest noticed the cleated mainsheet and released it. Winds were around 10 mph. If they had been stronger, we might have gone over, but I was very surprised at the stability during a major mental meltdown.
We have a 2002 and have never tipped it over. We came very close once during the first year and buried the rail but managed to keep it upright. This year, I was out with my sons and my youngest was at the helm. We got hit with an unplanned gibe and did a complete 360 degree turn because my son had cleated the mainsheet. Instinctively, we all dove to the center, my oldest noticed the cleated mainsheet and released it. Winds were around 10 mph. If they had been stronger, we might have gone over, but I was very surprised at the stability during a major mental meltdown.
thanks for reassurance
Thanks to all for your words of encouragement! I am still waiting to take delivery as there was a minor glitch. I hope I get it in time to take it out for a sail before the end of the season. I'll post again after I have a chance to try it out a few times in a range of conditions.
Thanks to all for your words of encouragement! I am still waiting to take delivery as there was a minor glitch. I hope I get it in time to take it out for a sail before the end of the season. I'll post again after I have a chance to try it out a few times in a range of conditions.
my experience
Other than a few lessons on a Flying Scott I have learned on my 170. At first it freaked me out a little in wind over about 10. Now I am very comfortable with one rail under water and my wife is even pretty game for high winds. We take our kids out when the wind is light. The good thing is that the boat will sail in almost no wind. It is not a fun ride in 2mph wind, but the 5 year old can steer on days like that, and that is a good thing too. By the way the thing that made my wife more comfortable is when I put the tiller and main sheet in her hand and I took the jib. She was very reluctant to do it, but as soon as she did the difference in her comfort level was amazing. I have only flipped it over once and it was my first year sailing and I was caught out in wind that I never should have been in. I put a hobie float on it, I am considering taking it off. have fun John
Other than a few lessons on a Flying Scott I have learned on my 170. At first it freaked me out a little in wind over about 10. Now I am very comfortable with one rail under water and my wife is even pretty game for high winds. We take our kids out when the wind is light. The good thing is that the boat will sail in almost no wind. It is not a fun ride in 2mph wind, but the 5 year old can steer on days like that, and that is a good thing too. By the way the thing that made my wife more comfortable is when I put the tiller and main sheet in her hand and I took the jib. She was very reluctant to do it, but as soon as she did the difference in her comfort level was amazing. I have only flipped it over once and it was my first year sailing and I was caught out in wind that I never should have been in. I put a hobie float on it, I am considering taking it off. have fun John
John of Dexter: good call on the Hobie float
John, Good idea considering removing the Hobie float after getting the hang of the 170. Sheet control (especially the jib sheet/ to prevent excessive leehelm), reefing, and ( as you said) not getting caught out in wind the 170 has no business sailing in, are the only components you need to master this boat --and keep it under control. It's a blast once you learn how to handle its eagerness. Replace the float with a Windex wind vane! Mike G. Alachua, FL
John, Good idea considering removing the Hobie float after getting the hang of the 170. Sheet control (especially the jib sheet/ to prevent excessive leehelm), reefing, and ( as you said) not getting caught out in wind the 170 has no business sailing in, are the only components you need to master this boat --and keep it under control. It's a blast once you learn how to handle its eagerness. Replace the float with a Windex wind vane! Mike G. Alachua, FL
Removing the float
Actually neither John nor I need a windex as Lisa taught us very well how to read the water
Seriously, I'm not kidding....she hammered that home from Day 1 and I've never once felt the need for a windex. Not once. The float is optional...I keep mine on because I'm not going to put anything else up there and it's insurance in case the kids are out by themselves someday and try to chew off more than they can swallow.
Actually neither John nor I need a windex as Lisa taught us very well how to read the water
Seriously, I'm not kidding....she hammered that home from Day 1 and I've never once felt the need for a windex. Not once. The float is optional...I keep mine on because I'm not going to put anything else up there and it's insurance in case the kids are out by themselves someday and try to chew off more than they can swallow.hi Dick!
But the funny thing is that I have a windex! A friend of mine (who happens to manage the Port Huron West Marine store) brought me several gifts when we went sailing together, one of which was a windex. I scratched my head for about 10 minutes looking at the windex and the hobie float and trying to figure out how to install it, then I put it in my tool box. You have a point about the Hobie float. My 8 year old wants to take the junior sailing class (from Lisa) next summer. I don't think I'll let her take the 170 out by herself for a few years yet, but maybe I should remember where I put the mast float. john
But the funny thing is that I have a windex! A friend of mine (who happens to manage the Port Huron West Marine store) brought me several gifts when we went sailing together, one of which was a windex. I scratched my head for about 10 minutes looking at the windex and the hobie float and trying to figure out how to install it, then I put it in my tool box. You have a point about the Hobie float. My 8 year old wants to take the junior sailing class (from Lisa) next summer. I don't think I'll let her take the 170 out by herself for a few years yet, but maybe I should remember where I put the mast float. john
Reading wind
OK, OK, you got me, Dick. I pretty much just like the Windex because it "looks cool". I feel so big-boat with a Windex wind instrument up top. You're right, reading the water is primary, and I find that the wind shifting on my sweaty Florida skin is another great way to read wind (more subliminally than anything). Great how sailing gets you in touch with all your senses! Landlubbers are so unaware... Mike
OK, OK, you got me, Dick. I pretty much just like the Windex because it "looks cool". I feel so big-boat with a Windex wind instrument up top. You're right, reading the water is primary, and I find that the wind shifting on my sweaty Florida skin is another great way to read wind (more subliminally than anything). Great how sailing gets you in touch with all your senses! Landlubbers are so unaware... Mike
Tipping a 170
I'm a lake sailor, and the hardest thing for me to get used to was how quickly the 170 heels through the first five degrees. At first, it heeled so quickly in shifty lake winds that I would get spooked and release the main. Of course, that meant having to start all over again building speed. It felt like the sailing equivalent of trying to learn to drive a standard transmission car (rabbiting from stop to stop). A friend of mine with a lot more sailing experience went with me and showed me how the boat really firmed up when it heeled past 5 degrees. Close hauled in a 10 mph breeze, he even moved to the leeward side of the boat so the rail was an inch above the water, and the boat didn't tip. I don't know . . . maybe I'm just a wimp (okay, that's a rhetorical statement that really doesn't require comment . . .), but my conclusion is "trust the boat." It heels quickly but will firm up with room to spare. Past 5-6 degrees it heels more slowly and allows plenty of time to make any adjustments necessary for the conditions. Finally, if you get spooked and release the main it will right itself as quickly as it heeled. I'm not saying it's impossible to tip, but I think a lot of things have to go wrong all at once before you wind up in the water.
I'm a lake sailor, and the hardest thing for me to get used to was how quickly the 170 heels through the first five degrees. At first, it heeled so quickly in shifty lake winds that I would get spooked and release the main. Of course, that meant having to start all over again building speed. It felt like the sailing equivalent of trying to learn to drive a standard transmission car (rabbiting from stop to stop). A friend of mine with a lot more sailing experience went with me and showed me how the boat really firmed up when it heeled past 5 degrees. Close hauled in a 10 mph breeze, he even moved to the leeward side of the boat so the rail was an inch above the water, and the boat didn't tip. I don't know . . . maybe I'm just a wimp (okay, that's a rhetorical statement that really doesn't require comment . . .), but my conclusion is "trust the boat." It heels quickly but will firm up with room to spare. Past 5-6 degrees it heels more slowly and allows plenty of time to make any adjustments necessary for the conditions. Finally, if you get spooked and release the main it will right itself as quickly as it heeled. I'm not saying it's impossible to tip, but I think a lot of things have to go wrong all at once before you wind up in the water.
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