David, thanks for your detailed reply,I have a vang and it was pulled as tight as I could get it to flatten the main, which by the way was brand new when I bought the boat last year,the jib is also quite new and I had it winched in tight as well, anyway my one more question is this; With the vang tight and the main sheeted out (I do not have a traveller) and the jib winched in tight on a close reach reefing the main will help balance the boat better than sheeting the main out? This may seem like a funny question but it seemed to be the jib that was overpowering the boat. My experience in handling the boat is limited so I am trying to understand the forces/physics at work here to better sail the boat. thanks Craig S/V Wind Toy 1977 H25
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Ed Schenck
While you wait. . .
for David here is a tip. See if you can find a copy of a little book with big information. It is titled "Looking at Sails" by Dick Kenny. You will find used copies on Amazon I think. There is an online version of sorts, see Related Link.
for David here is a tip. See if you can find a copy of a little book with big information. It is titled "Looking at Sails" by Dick Kenny. You will find used copies on Amazon I think. There is an online version of sorts, see Related Link.
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David Foster
"Jib...was overpowering the boat"?
What were the specific effects you were seeing and feeling? Did you have "lee helm," that is, were you having to push the tiller to leeward to hold the boat on course? Do you remember what was happening with the tell-tales on the luff of the jib, and the leach of the main? David Lady Lillie
What were the specific effects you were seeing and feeling? Did you have "lee helm," that is, were you having to push the tiller to leeward to hold the boat on course? Do you remember what was happening with the tell-tales on the luff of the jib, and the leach of the main? David Lady Lillie
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Craig
David & Ed
The helm was reasonably neutral other than in the gusts and as I recall the telltales were jumping. I guess my misconception was that you could control heel with the main sheets after you had your jib set, in this instance this does not seem to be the case, i.e. with the jib sheeted in tight and the main sheeted out to spill air the boat was still developing excessive heel 30"+ so even with putting a reef in the main the jib seems to be providing the heeling force and I am wondering how does one balance out the boat if this is the case? Am I making any sense??? thanks guys Craig S/V Wind Toy 1977 H25
The helm was reasonably neutral other than in the gusts and as I recall the telltales were jumping. I guess my misconception was that you could control heel with the main sheets after you had your jib set, in this instance this does not seem to be the case, i.e. with the jib sheeted in tight and the main sheeted out to spill air the boat was still developing excessive heel 30"+ so even with putting a reef in the main the jib seems to be providing the heeling force and I am wondering how does one balance out the boat if this is the case? Am I making any sense??? thanks guys Craig S/V Wind Toy 1977 H25
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David Foster
Sheeting the jib
The jib should be sheeted so that the telltales on both sides of the luff are streaming horizontally, with those on the windward side dipping 20 to 30 percent of the time from wave action. From your description, it sounds like you are over sheeting the jib. So the windward telltales would be streaming horizontal, while the leeward telltales (the ones you see through the sail) would be relaxed and drooping down. If so, ease the jib sheet until the leeward telltales are streaming. On the main, the telltales are on the trailing edge (the leach). They should all be streaming straight back. If the main is sheeted too tight, the telltales will fall off behind the leach. Ease the sheet until they are all streaming. Tactics and dynamics. If you are doing all of the above, but the gusts have a wide range (say from 10 to 20 knots - I saw these conditions when sailing behind an island in a 20 knot breeze last month - then the boat slows in the 10 knot breeze. When the gust hits, there will be a dramatic shift aft in the apparent wind direction because the true 20 knot wind is 5 times your speed of around 4 knots instead of the 2.5 times of the previous 10 knot wind. Until the boat accelerates and/or the gust eases a little, the apparent wind (seen by you and the sails) is coming much more from the side, and there is really no way to set the sail to handle both wind velocities. By the way, when the gust hits, the telltales on both sails will say that they are over sheeted. The best response (with trimmers on both sheets) is to ease both sheets when the gust hits, then sheet back in as the boat accelerates, and the gust steadies off. Sailing with just me and the Admiral, I may keep the sheets undertrimmed at ten knots, then ease the mainsheet to control heeling (and generate drive) when the gust hits. The idea is to convert the gust as much as possible into acceleration, rather than heeling, and sheet in as the boat accelerates. If these tactics don't do the job with a reef in the main, then I would put a 10 percent reef in the jib, too, giving up power in the 10 knot breeze to be more ready (and comfortable) when the 20 knot gust hits. David Lady Lillie
The jib should be sheeted so that the telltales on both sides of the luff are streaming horizontally, with those on the windward side dipping 20 to 30 percent of the time from wave action. From your description, it sounds like you are over sheeting the jib. So the windward telltales would be streaming horizontal, while the leeward telltales (the ones you see through the sail) would be relaxed and drooping down. If so, ease the jib sheet until the leeward telltales are streaming. On the main, the telltales are on the trailing edge (the leach). They should all be streaming straight back. If the main is sheeted too tight, the telltales will fall off behind the leach. Ease the sheet until they are all streaming. Tactics and dynamics. If you are doing all of the above, but the gusts have a wide range (say from 10 to 20 knots - I saw these conditions when sailing behind an island in a 20 knot breeze last month - then the boat slows in the 10 knot breeze. When the gust hits, there will be a dramatic shift aft in the apparent wind direction because the true 20 knot wind is 5 times your speed of around 4 knots instead of the 2.5 times of the previous 10 knot wind. Until the boat accelerates and/or the gust eases a little, the apparent wind (seen by you and the sails) is coming much more from the side, and there is really no way to set the sail to handle both wind velocities. By the way, when the gust hits, the telltales on both sails will say that they are over sheeted. The best response (with trimmers on both sheets) is to ease both sheets when the gust hits, then sheet back in as the boat accelerates, and the gust steadies off. Sailing with just me and the Admiral, I may keep the sheets undertrimmed at ten knots, then ease the mainsheet to control heeling (and generate drive) when the gust hits. The idea is to convert the gust as much as possible into acceleration, rather than heeling, and sheet in as the boat accelerates. If these tactics don't do the job with a reef in the main, then I would put a 10 percent reef in the jib, too, giving up power in the 10 knot breeze to be more ready (and comfortable) when the 20 knot gust hits. David Lady Lillie
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Yehudi
My simple answer...
for your description of excessive heel while dumping air from the main is that your headsail was probably sheeted in too tight for your point of sail. When I an racing close-hauled (as close up wind as possible) we usually do leave the headsail sheeted in tight and dump the main in gusts...but I too would experience too much heel if we sailed away from the wind with the jib/genoa sheeted/hauled in that tight.
for your description of excessive heel while dumping air from the main is that your headsail was probably sheeted in too tight for your point of sail. When I an racing close-hauled (as close up wind as possible) we usually do leave the headsail sheeted in tight and dump the main in gusts...but I too would experience too much heel if we sailed away from the wind with the jib/genoa sheeted/hauled in that tight.
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Craig
Thanks David
Thanks David for the time you took to make such a detailed reply, this is starting to make some sense, I guess the main thing is to get as much info as possible and practice, the forum members are a great source of first-hand info and thanks to all. We're going again to-nite to try it again. Craig S/V Wind Toy 1977 H25
Thanks David for the time you took to make such a detailed reply, this is starting to make some sense, I guess the main thing is to get as much info as possible and practice, the forum members are a great source of first-hand info and thanks to all. We're going again to-nite to try it again. Craig S/V Wind Toy 1977 H25
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David Foster
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