On the subject of capsizing Macs

Doug J · Jul 21, 2011

doehunter said:
I did a search on J24 boats sinking and found that they too, have a reputation for sinking after a blow down.

I haven't heard that MAC classics have a reputation of sinking after a blow down!

Have you seen that video where a couple guys are holding a 26S on it's starboard side, apparently little to no water got in.

Sumner · Jul 21, 2011

We always have the laz closed and the pop-top down but will sometimes have the foreward hatch up some, but it is usually closed also. Probably overly cautious, but we also like looking forward easier.

Underway we only go below to use the head or fix a sandwich so no real reason to have the pop-top up for us. I do know from people's picture that a lot of guys/gals like to sail with the pop-top up and even though the factory says to not do it in the last couple years I've never heard of it being a problem for anyone,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

thomasgoodmaniii · Jul 21, 2011

guilty of sailing with everything open but normally only in mild conditions.

Kestle · Jul 21, 2011

I've had a knockdown when my path was constricted and the main was prevented from going out sufficiently by the spreader position. I was in an unfamiliar area and sailing solo. It was either knockdown or breakwater.

Since that time, I learned my rudder was not balanced properly and this has been corrected. I'm also going to fill the empty metal rudder cavity with epoxy to stiffen it up for better feel in big wind. Gotta watch out for those Santa Ana's out here in LA.

Jeff

MrMikey64 · Jul 21, 2011

The way I see it, Macgregor put iin enough floatation in these boats to stay afloat even when full of water, provided you have a small to moderate amount of weight added to the basic boat. There's about 27 cubic feet of foam in a Mac 25.
If you add more equipment or modify the boat significantly, you may want to consider finding ways to add more floatation to compensate for it.

Faris · Jul 22, 2011

To be perfectly honest, I think that Macs capsize because they attract inexperienced sailors. Many people buy a 26 as their first boat before knowing how to sail. And, the 26 is big enough and friendly enough that people aren't fully aware of their lack of skill until conditions surprise them. Their not like a dinghy that will point out every mistake you make, but they will go over if you combine a little bad luck with bad choices. Factor in the whole water ballast and moveable keel issue, and you've got quite a few boats capsizing that don't really have to.

I hear that Macs are unstable or have this performance problem or that. My first question is, "How much have you sailed that boat?" Almost invariably the answer is, "Well, I haven't personally sailed it, but I've heard ..."

A guy from my club warned me against buying a 22, pointing out that Macs are death traps, and listing a bunch of problems (all of which were false, and many of which applied only to the 26. I did take him seriously insomuch as I went looking for past/current Mac sailors who could confirm what he was saying. I found several people who were happy to confirm, but none of whom had actually sailed a Mac, much less a 22.

The guy who explained to me that the 22 was fine for lake sailing, but not in big water - I took him out in 30+ winds and 4+ foot steep waves. It was a rough ride, but I think I made the point that it is the sailor and not the boat.

Robspan · Jul 22, 2011

I think the biggest danger is the poptop, and I don't see much danger even in that. Even if the boat were to heel over that far, it would probably be just for a moment, and any water taken in would be manageable. For once, we'd have to use more than a sponge to bail the boat out.

A certain amount of prudence, mainly watching the weather, will tell us when to lower the poptop. JDK was on this forum for a long time and recently sold his boat. His avatar showed his classic heeled way over with the poptop up. That's something I'd probably never do but it did illustrate that it would take a lot for a boat to heel over far enough and long enough to be swamped.

I agree with Faris - with a certain amount of sailing knowledge, and the standard ration of prudence, capsizing is very unlikely.

ChockFullOnuts222 · Jul 22, 2011

Kestle said:
I've had a knockdown when my path was constricted and the main was prevented from going out sufficiently by the spreader position. I was in an unfamiliar area and sailing solo. It was either knockdown or breakwater.

What kind of boat were you in when you were knocked down? Your Mac 25? How far over did you go?

Faris said it right. I, too, have heard people with no first-hand experience trash-talk Ventures and MacGregors. Especially from guys with big, heavy fixed-keel boats. But if you know what you're doing, and pay attention to what the weather is doing, then you're not going to have any problems with the boat capsizing. A beginner probably shouldn't be sailing a trailerable 1800-2300 lb sailboat out in winds at or above 25-30 mph. Not to say that it can't be done; but weather that heavy is not for the beginner without the help of someone experienced who knows what to do and not to panic if something goes "wrong."

Sumner · Jul 22, 2011

ChockFullOnuts222 said:
...Faris said it right. I, too, have heard people with no first-hand experience trash-talk Ventures and MacGregors......

It is funny that if it wasn't for all of those threads on the internet we wouldn't of probably bought our Mac. There was a boat for sale here in town for a long time and I thought it was a good deal and for some reason felt that we should buy it and try this thing called sailing out. Before we spent the money though we took a trip east to see family and I had a lot of sitting around time and got on the internet and started researching trailerable sailboats. It didn't take long and I started to find the threads bashing Macs. Most of them started dealing with the X and M's, but soon the posters would get off track and lump all Macs/Ventures into the same boat. If you have lived very long pretty soon you can see ignorance and BS and most of these threads consisted of a lot of both.

Some Mac owners would jump in every once in a while and present some valid data and that was enough for me to really start looking at the different Macs and Ventures that had been made over the years and we finally settled on the S as we felt it suited us the best.

Faris said:
To be perfectly honest, I think that Macs capsize because they attract inexperienced sailors. Many people buy a 26 as their first boat before knowing how to sail. And, the 26 is big enough and friendly enough that people aren't fully aware of their lack of skill until conditions surprise them.

Yep that was us

. We have done some stupid stuff and probably still will, but the Mac has never come close to capsizing with us. We have been in some pretty bad situations and the boat has never given us reason to think it couldn't handle them. If the wind gets over 20 do we sail? No, but we have had fronts hit us while sailing where the wind quickly went to 25-30 while the sails where still up and didn't get knocked down. A couple of the guys on here have intentionally tried to take the boat down and I think one or two have done it, but for just a few seconds and then it was back up. I'd like to go out with someone in those over 20 mph conditions and learn how to sail in them, but won't do it with Ruth. We barely have her swimming a little and I'm so lucky to have her enjoying and supporting this sailing thing that I don't want to scare her. She came a long ways on the Florida trip in her tolerance for large waves, being out of sight of land and water coming in over the bow.

Anyway I think the only Macs that I've read about that have capsized and stayed down and where there have been fatalities or injuries have been a couple X's and one smaller Mac/Venture in San Diego. These incidences all seemed to of been cases of total disregard for common sense boating safety and I'm sure there are instances of similar tragedies that involve about any make of boat you can name,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

Freedom77 · Jul 22, 2011

There is no excuse for prudence and common sense. Sailing with open hatches in a gale is a no brainer. I never sailed Freedom V-25 or Penny Sue Too V-222 with the pop top up. I have had both our V-222 and our V-25 in the Catalina channel in 40+ wind on the edge of a hurricane out of baja and never had a problem. Been knocked down with the spinnaker up, mast head in the water, at Hurricane Gulch in San Pedro. Released sheet and she righted herself which is one of the features MacGregor emphasizes. Sailed in every Pac coast long distance race and did okay. Trailered from Baja to BC. I don't need to defend Ventures. Roger has been building boats since the 60's. Where are the other guys now? I admire the people who throw aspersions at Mac's. It's like a Benz owner making fun of a Volkswagen. I get there just the same and at a lot less cost and enjoy it just as much. Never want a boat I can't haul out of the desert. Fair winds and Full Sails...

Mick · Jul 22, 2011

Almost Tornado proof

Last year at a nearby lake , a F3 tornado crossed haired the local marina where there were close to 200 boats , 80 + were sailboats . Of theses 5 were Mac's. my S model happened to be one of them. Although full of holes from flying stuff ( 2 X4s, steel "Ls" , ect) I was able to cut it loose and tow it to our waiting trailer at the landing. The other four were in the same shape. Not so with most of the other sailboats. Most were on the bottom , some were bottom up.
May not impress many , but it sure did me.

chp · Jul 23, 2011

I have to agree with the lack of experience being a cause of knockdowns in the Mac. I got my mac last August and went out in 15 knt. winds with gusts to 25. Hadn't sailed in 30 yrs and even then just did what I was told. Well along came a wind shift and gust, full sails, and scared the crap out of myself and my wife. Decided we needed some lessons. We hired a girl to teach us the do's and don'ts. Learned the importance of when to reduce sails and controlling the heel with proper sail position and points of sail. Now I routinlly go out when the wind is 20+ knots, have speeds in excess of 7 knts. and very rarely heal more than 20 degrees. I also batten down the hatches in rough seas and high winds. Sailing is not at all like power boating which is why I've fallen in love with it. It takes a lot of respect and knowledge. I have a lot of respect for guys who race and hope to one day try it myself. The Lake Ontario 300 just finished and I followed it every day.

oreana123 · Jul 23, 2011

Ok I have a 26d, a water ballast boat. It is certainly not the only brand of boat designed to use water as ballast. When I bought my boat,
I decided to test the extent of "danger" by sailing the boat on a gusty day on a lake known for its flukey winds. I had nothing on board, just me, a freediver who has been in a lot of dangerous situations in strong surf etc!

Without water in the ballast tank, there is plenty of warning that something is amiss. The boat will roll more than 20 degrees with moderate wind press on the sails. As the wind force picked up, the entire boat laid on its side spilling the wind from the sails. This was not a sudden gust, but a deliberate application of wind force on the rig. I never got water in the cockpit, I never had the mainsail get wet.

In a related test, I sailed on an M model. We initially filled the ballast at the dock, but emptied the ballast to see the outboard engine performance. The dealer had warned the new owner not to go further forward than the cockpit with no water ballast. I went to the sideshrouds and hung out as far as possible anyway, I weigh about 200 lbs. The boat did roll over about 5 degrees, but showed no tendency to go any further.

While I would never endanger innocent passengers with this kind of testing, it is nice to know evrything possible about any kind of performance of one's boat, in any condition that is concievable. I only wish I had swamped the boat then to test flotation, before all of the upgrades I've installed, which prevent me form doing that test.

There is no way to prevent an ignorant fool from harming himself and others, without restricting the freedoms of those who are competant sailors. There is no way to always foresee every contingency of weather. There are none so blind, as he who won't see. I really like my water ballast boat. I have sailed with my family in fairly strong conditions, and I have never experienced any kind of tendancy to turn turtle. Maybe a real strong gust is waiting for me someday, but I think my boat will fare well in any kind of sailing I see in inland waters in the Pacific Northwest. This is a trailer boat not a cicumnavigating bluewater brute.

Kestle · Jul 23, 2011

ChockFullOnuts222 said:
What kind of boat were you in when you were knocked down? Your Mac 25? How far over did you go?

Faris said it right. I, too, have heard people with no first-hand experience trash-talk Ventures and MacGregors. Especially from guys with big, heavy fixed-keel boats. But if you know what you're doing, and pay attention to what the weather is doing, then you're not going to have any problems with the boat capsizing. A beginner probably shouldn't be sailing a trailerable 1800-2300 lb sailboat out in winds at or above 25-30 mph. Not to say that it can't be done; but weather that heavy is not for the beginner without the help of someone experienced who knows what to do and not to panic if something goes "wrong."

Almost had keel out of the water...just tip stayed in. Jib and main were fully released. Fact is, the area I had entered was new to me and I had certain parts of the boat set incorrectly. I've raced off and on for forty years. Wind got very gusty from dead calm with no change in wave action but lots of kelp. Since then, I have the reefing lines better placed, have beveled self tailing winches and roller furling, and am redoing the original traveler - which I despise. Once I stiffen the tiller, I'm done with the issues.

My normal sailing is this 87 Mac 25, and 2005 J109.

Jeff

timebandit · Jul 24, 2011

Welcome to Huracane Gulch!!

Kestle said:
Almost had keel out of the water...just tip stayed in. Jib and main were fully released. Fact is, the area I had entered was new to me and I had certain parts of the boat set incorrectly. I've raced off and on for forty years. Wind got very gusty from dead calm with no change in wave action but lots of kelp. Since then, I have the reefing lines better placed, have beveled self tailing winches and roller furling, and am redoing the original traveler - which I despise. Once I stiffen the tiller, I'm done with the issues.

My normal sailing is this 87 Mac 25, and 2005 J109.

Jeff

Kestle · Jul 24, 2011

timebandit said:
Welcome to Huracane Gulch!!

Yup, you got it. I cut the point too close.

Jeff

Freedom77 · Jul 25, 2011

They don't call it Hurricane Gulch for Nuttin'! Some years back we had our annual Jan 1 Commodores cruise around Terminal Island. Spruce Goose and Princess Louise were still there. Left Cabrillo under light winds. By the time we got back to Cabrillo ramp the wind was blowing 35-40. We were in our V-222. Gust laid us over and our friends said they could see up the keel trunk. Fair Winds and full Sails....