Im sure the topic of the seaworthyness of Hunters has come up before here. I just can not seem to find it in the archives. I've been reading about the CE certification that accompanies all Hunters. The 380 is rated A which is the offshore designation. However, I guess my question is "how far"? Im interested in cruising on the US east coast mostly and points south. As I plan out my trip to Key West on Nobletec's Visual Navigator (great program I must say), I have been extremely conservative in scheduling passages that include offshore routes (always staying within 10 miles of shore). For example the passage from Okracoke NC (Cape Hatteras) to Cape Fear could be quickly done if I shot across the bay that separates them, however that carries me almost 50 - 100 miles out, so I plotted to hug the coast. I did this because I figured that the 380 would not hold up way out there should I get in trouble. Anyone care to refute this? Gerry
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The crew and skipper are the limiting factors
The boat will hold up longer than the crew. They will drop from exhaustion before the boat will break. But the most important factor is the skipper: his or her judgement, knowledge and skill.
The boat will hold up longer than the crew. They will drop from exhaustion before the boat will break. But the most important factor is the skipper: his or her judgement, knowledge and skill.
Offshore in a 380
Absolutely no question about it. The 380 will take much more abuse than you can. I've only been a maximum of 100-110 miles offshore in 8-12 foot seas with the 380 but I can tell you the boat took a beating for 3 days and the only mechanical failure was due to a missing cotter pin.
Absolutely no question about it. The 380 will take much more abuse than you can. I've only been a maximum of 100-110 miles offshore in 8-12 foot seas with the 380 but I can tell you the boat took a beating for 3 days and the only mechanical failure was due to a missing cotter pin.
Maybe I should clarify
Well this is great news Im hearing. I've had a lot of old salts in my marina tell me otherwise. Everything from, "That B&R thing seems a bit weak to me", to "She just doesn't have the construction base to take a "real" beating". Guess they have to justify shelling out 300-400K for those Island Packet 380s they own. I guess I should clarify a bit. I have enough sailing time under my belt to know that I could never try to beat mother ocean physically. I'd more than likely throw a drouge and ride things out. My question centered around this. If I left her to the elements and rode it out below, would she be able to make it back to shore when things calmed down? Best, Gerry
Well this is great news Im hearing. I've had a lot of old salts in my marina tell me otherwise. Everything from, "That B&R thing seems a bit weak to me", to "She just doesn't have the construction base to take a "real" beating". Guess they have to justify shelling out 300-400K for those Island Packet 380s they own. I guess I should clarify a bit. I have enough sailing time under my belt to know that I could never try to beat mother ocean physically. I'd more than likely throw a drouge and ride things out. My question centered around this. If I left her to the elements and rode it out below, would she be able to make it back to shore when things calmed down? Best, Gerry
Other responses were right
The boat will always take more punishment than you can. Remember many so called crusing boats are abandoned during severe storms by crews then found afloat several hundred miles away when the storm is over. Look at it this way; Would a rookie sailor on a Island Packet of a Hinckley do better in the severe storm than an experienced sailor in a Hunter? You can make mistakes and roll or sink any boat ever built, or you can arrive safely in a bathtub (with a little luck) with lots of skill. As a coastal boat for the east coast and carribean I wouldn't hesitate to take my 380. Not my choice for a world voyager though, it would require so many modifications that a boat built for that purpose would be cheaper that one that would never lots of additions (Think collision bulkheads, chain rode stored off the bow and low to keep center of gravity low, lower freeboard, hard top to get you out of the bad weather. Wow sounds like I just described the HC50 doesn't it! Enjoy Bob Knott H380
The boat will always take more punishment than you can. Remember many so called crusing boats are abandoned during severe storms by crews then found afloat several hundred miles away when the storm is over. Look at it this way; Would a rookie sailor on a Island Packet of a Hinckley do better in the severe storm than an experienced sailor in a Hunter? You can make mistakes and roll or sink any boat ever built, or you can arrive safely in a bathtub (with a little luck) with lots of skill. As a coastal boat for the east coast and carribean I wouldn't hesitate to take my 380. Not my choice for a world voyager though, it would require so many modifications that a boat built for that purpose would be cheaper that one that would never lots of additions (Think collision bulkheads, chain rode stored off the bow and low to keep center of gravity low, lower freeboard, hard top to get you out of the bad weather. Wow sounds like I just described the HC50 doesn't it! Enjoy Bob Knott H380
What about my 336(340)?
Gerry is questioning his 380 and I am looking to get enough time to take the shot from Boca Grande Pass straight (almost) down to the Dry Tortugas in my 336. If I can get myself retired I plan to go around to the Bahamas. All I have read over the last two years here seems to say I am being practical. Given that I watch the weather, am I thinking bigger than my boat in any of your opinions? I am not a big risk taker, and I think I know my limitations (lots of them).
Gerry is questioning his 380 and I am looking to get enough time to take the shot from Boca Grande Pass straight (almost) down to the Dry Tortugas in my 336. If I can get myself retired I plan to go around to the Bahamas. All I have read over the last two years here seems to say I am being practical. Given that I watch the weather, am I thinking bigger than my boat in any of your opinions? I am not a big risk taker, and I think I know my limitations (lots of them).
Passages
Gerri, To answer your question, I think you can do the proposed trip in your 380 with prudent seamanship. I also agree with Bob that the 380 is not the boat for a circumnavigation, but is outstanding cruising the coast and the Bahamas and the Caribean. Rodney, you could get by with it in good weather, but the margin for error is much smaller. While my friend on his 310 is complaining about getting "beaten up", I am still well within my comfort zone on my 380. Bottom line, can you do it? Yes, but the real question is should you? Depends on weather, skill, and what your crew will tolerate. Just my opinion, but I could be wrong. Paul Bednarzyk S/V Knot Again
Gerri, To answer your question, I think you can do the proposed trip in your 380 with prudent seamanship. I also agree with Bob that the 380 is not the boat for a circumnavigation, but is outstanding cruising the coast and the Bahamas and the Caribean. Rodney, you could get by with it in good weather, but the margin for error is much smaller. While my friend on his 310 is complaining about getting "beaten up", I am still well within my comfort zone on my 380. Bottom line, can you do it? Yes, but the real question is should you? Depends on weather, skill, and what your crew will tolerate. Just my opinion, but I could be wrong. Paul Bednarzyk S/V Knot Again
Insight
Thanks everyone! I get it. For me, the answer to my query lay mostly in the idea that I would go inland (ICW) more often than I thought. Not whether I should take the trip or not. I believe in my 380 and have great hopes and dreams of cruising everywhere and anywhere in her. But like most things in life, I want to know where the limits are. Your thoughtful and insightful responses tell me that I should be looking at myself, and not the boat. Well said! See you in Key West! With a little luck.....
Thanks everyone! I get it. For me, the answer to my query lay mostly in the idea that I would go inland (ICW) more often than I thought. Not whether I should take the trip or not. I believe in my 380 and have great hopes and dreams of cruising everywhere and anywhere in her. But like most things in life, I want to know where the limits are. Your thoughtful and insightful responses tell me that I should be looking at myself, and not the boat. Well said! See you in Key West! With a little luck.....
Offshore mods
In addition to what has been said previously, there are a number of mods which would be prudent, depending upon how far and in what wx pattern (i.e.; Gulf Stream) you may find - examples include increased water and fuel tankage, beefed up rigging, forestay, sole board locks, cabinet locks, hatchboard security, adequate sea berths,etc. Some not-so-fixable things which would worry me in a breaking sea include whether those nice big windows would stand up against anything significant. These boats are made for coastal cruising. Don S/V Windsome II
In addition to what has been said previously, there are a number of mods which would be prudent, depending upon how far and in what wx pattern (i.e.; Gulf Stream) you may find - examples include increased water and fuel tankage, beefed up rigging, forestay, sole board locks, cabinet locks, hatchboard security, adequate sea berths,etc. Some not-so-fixable things which would worry me in a breaking sea include whether those nice big windows would stand up against anything significant. These boats are made for coastal cruising. Don S/V Windsome II
Sorry Gerry, but back to my 336
So Paul, Would your friend not take his 310 to the Bahamas? I would never try to cross the Stream without favorable weather, but we have seen lots of guys on this site talking about crossing in a 27 or 28. I sail down in Southwest Florida now, and I know when to stay inside, but the weather windows seem long enough to get me across the stream without worrying about the wind going northeast on me. I know not to think about Spain, but I am working with the idea that I can cross the stream if I am patient and wait for the correct weather window. I really want to see Hopetown in my own boat.
So Paul, Would your friend not take his 310 to the Bahamas? I would never try to cross the Stream without favorable weather, but we have seen lots of guys on this site talking about crossing in a 27 or 28. I sail down in Southwest Florida now, and I know when to stay inside, but the weather windows seem long enough to get me across the stream without worrying about the wind going northeast on me. I know not to think about Spain, but I am working with the idea that I can cross the stream if I am patient and wait for the correct weather window. I really want to see Hopetown in my own boat.
100 Miles Should be OK
I sail a 376 and have never been concerned about seaworthiness. When I bought the boat I discussed it with several professional captains first. They tell me they routinely sail these boats from the West coast to Hawaii and back. That's roughly 2500 miles of open ocean. I also did a lot of digging relative to the B&R. I'm guessing it'll last longer than you. I've been 50+ miles offshore many times, sailed in some pretty heavy weather and never had a worry about the boat. Make sure you have the right gear with you and know your own limitations. I know in my case the boat has fewer. Plan well and enjoy your trip.
I sail a 376 and have never been concerned about seaworthiness. When I bought the boat I discussed it with several professional captains first. They tell me they routinely sail these boats from the West coast to Hawaii and back. That's roughly 2500 miles of open ocean. I also did a lot of digging relative to the B&R. I'm guessing it'll last longer than you. I've been 50+ miles offshore many times, sailed in some pretty heavy weather and never had a worry about the boat. Make sure you have the right gear with you and know your own limitations. I know in my case the boat has fewer. Plan well and enjoy your trip.
you have to realize...
...that Island Packet is not a boat, it's a cult. Those guys consider ALL other boats to have been built by demons and to be driven by heathen. That said, the 380, IMHO, is a bit tender for a passage-maker, and lacks the sea berths, the tankage, and the storage room I'd want for a circumnavigation. Would I cross the Gulf Stream in it and cruise the Carribean? You bet! But maybe not the North Atlantic or the Southern Ocean...... I'd rather die, by the way, then spend one more night on a drogue. Learn to heave to, a maneuver which is tricky in any fin-keeled boat, unfortunately, but which is doable in a 380 and is a much better way to ride out a storm. (I should mention that I've only spent a few days sailing a 380, but was very impressed with it.)
...that Island Packet is not a boat, it's a cult. Those guys consider ALL other boats to have been built by demons and to be driven by heathen. That said, the 380, IMHO, is a bit tender for a passage-maker, and lacks the sea berths, the tankage, and the storage room I'd want for a circumnavigation. Would I cross the Gulf Stream in it and cruise the Carribean? You bet! But maybe not the North Atlantic or the Southern Ocean...... I'd rather die, by the way, then spend one more night on a drogue. Learn to heave to, a maneuver which is tricky in any fin-keeled boat, unfortunately, but which is doable in a 380 and is a much better way to ride out a storm. (I should mention that I've only spent a few days sailing a 380, but was very impressed with it.)
Legends vs Island Packets
Sailing in the Keys, the prevailing wind is often right on the nose when traveling from west to east. So leaving from our home port, we are usually on a broad reach, sailing our 37.5. Coming home, we're usually beating--often in fairly strong winds and in difficult seas, because it's the open ocean and the very shallow bottom makes the waves steep. Many, many, many times, we've left an anchorage hours after Island Packets left. Before we reached the next anchorage, we would zoom right past these IPs, who were having a terrible time handling the wind and waves on the nose. From a distance behind, you could see them struggling with their sails up. As we got closer, they'd often drop their sails and start motoring. As we passed them with a reef in our main, they'd try sailing again, to no avail. At first, it was a cause for celebration--doing a "horizon job" on these IPs, with their bluewater reputation in some circles. But after a while, it got to be old hat with almost all boats we'd encounter going upwind, and we've started to feel sorry for those people. By the time they reached the next anchorage, they were wiped out. In fact, the only boat that EVER passed us sailing upwind in six years was a participant in Key West Race Week last year, who finished the race just as we were passing by the race area. I have to admit, with the crew hiked out on the rail, this boat (that I couldn't identify) totally smoked us. But, I expect that if Bill Walton and I ever get to do some boat testing, he'll be able to pass us too. (What do you think Bill?) True, a beat is only one point of sail. But it is often the point that is used as a measure of a boat's seaworthyness. And speed is only one measure of performance. But if you can reduce the time that you're exposed to bad conditions, the strain will be less on both boat and crew. You know, boats are not like cars. You can't go to three dealerships and take multiple test drives on every type of road. Lots of boats have reputations, sometimes true and sometimes false. So you're going to get lots of opinions that are based on gossip. And you know what they say about opinions. We've sailed our 37.5 throughout the Keys, to and from Miami, out to the Dry Tortugas (and on the way back TOTALLY embarrassed a 40' cat that was trying to sail upwind), and to the Bahamas and back (where we got caught in a real bad Gulf Stream storm). We have plans next year to sail throughout the Exumas. And we have no concerns about safety or seaworthyness with this boat. PS Geez, after reading this over, Hunter should pay me for this one.
Sailing in the Keys, the prevailing wind is often right on the nose when traveling from west to east. So leaving from our home port, we are usually on a broad reach, sailing our 37.5. Coming home, we're usually beating--often in fairly strong winds and in difficult seas, because it's the open ocean and the very shallow bottom makes the waves steep. Many, many, many times, we've left an anchorage hours after Island Packets left. Before we reached the next anchorage, we would zoom right past these IPs, who were having a terrible time handling the wind and waves on the nose. From a distance behind, you could see them struggling with their sails up. As we got closer, they'd often drop their sails and start motoring. As we passed them with a reef in our main, they'd try sailing again, to no avail. At first, it was a cause for celebration--doing a "horizon job" on these IPs, with their bluewater reputation in some circles. But after a while, it got to be old hat with almost all boats we'd encounter going upwind, and we've started to feel sorry for those people. By the time they reached the next anchorage, they were wiped out. In fact, the only boat that EVER passed us sailing upwind in six years was a participant in Key West Race Week last year, who finished the race just as we were passing by the race area. I have to admit, with the crew hiked out on the rail, this boat (that I couldn't identify) totally smoked us. But, I expect that if Bill Walton and I ever get to do some boat testing, he'll be able to pass us too. (What do you think Bill?) True, a beat is only one point of sail. But it is often the point that is used as a measure of a boat's seaworthyness. And speed is only one measure of performance. But if you can reduce the time that you're exposed to bad conditions, the strain will be less on both boat and crew. You know, boats are not like cars. You can't go to three dealerships and take multiple test drives on every type of road. Lots of boats have reputations, sometimes true and sometimes false. So you're going to get lots of opinions that are based on gossip. And you know what they say about opinions. We've sailed our 37.5 throughout the Keys, to and from Miami, out to the Dry Tortugas (and on the way back TOTALLY embarrassed a 40' cat that was trying to sail upwind), and to the Bahamas and back (where we got caught in a real bad Gulf Stream storm). We have plans next year to sail throughout the Exumas. And we have no concerns about safety or seaworthyness with this boat. PS Geez, after reading this over, Hunter should pay me for this one.
A is Ocean..
..while 'offshore' category (B)is just less than 70 miles offshore, However , real offshore compatibility , has little to do with current category certification .A well trained experience skipper will do better on a simple basic boat , than a unexperienced one in a 45 foot heavy displacement.. Re an earlier remark ..no ,on the 380 and most other Hunters (along with most production line boats of similar price level) ,you cannot -in real bad weather -'ride it out from below'..like old sailors in long keel heavy displacement boats did just few decades ago..These -then 'standard' boats- are a minority those days , being built in small numbers for those who can affort them..( as they cost more than twice for same lenght)..along with those experinced self suficient sailors , before the GPS and furling sails area.. For occasional offshore trip , one can do even in smaller boats. I did regulary the way to Cyprus from Israel , an 188nm-or more- direct trip with no place to stop or divert , often in adverse conditions and 6-8 foot waves, on my Hunter 29.5..But I did it with a carfull eye on the weather forecast , and I wouldn't push mu luck to much..
..while 'offshore' category (B)is just less than 70 miles offshore, However , real offshore compatibility , has little to do with current category certification .A well trained experience skipper will do better on a simple basic boat , than a unexperienced one in a 45 foot heavy displacement.. Re an earlier remark ..no ,on the 380 and most other Hunters (along with most production line boats of similar price level) ,you cannot -in real bad weather -'ride it out from below'..like old sailors in long keel heavy displacement boats did just few decades ago..These -then 'standard' boats- are a minority those days , being built in small numbers for those who can affort them..( as they cost more than twice for same lenght)..along with those experinced self suficient sailors , before the GPS and furling sails area.. For occasional offshore trip , one can do even in smaller boats. I did regulary the way to Cyprus from Israel , an 188nm-or more- direct trip with no place to stop or divert , often in adverse conditions and 6-8 foot waves, on my Hunter 29.5..But I did it with a carfull eye on the weather forecast , and I wouldn't push mu luck to much..
Riding a Drogue
Alex, To correct, you are absolutely right on the CE designation. I got the right letter, wrong description. Ocean is what I was referring to. However, to your second point. I don't understand how one could not ride a drogue in really bad weather. The principle applies to all boats (as does heaving to). Okay, I buy that you might ruin your rigging, or lose your furler, or even drop a bunch of equipment, but given the principle of "moving with the ocean and wind" it should be feasible in all boats. From a survivability standpoint, please explain why one could not ride out a storm?
Alex, To correct, you are absolutely right on the CE designation. I got the right letter, wrong description. Ocean is what I was referring to. However, to your second point. I don't understand how one could not ride a drogue in really bad weather. The principle applies to all boats (as does heaving to). Okay, I buy that you might ruin your rigging, or lose your furler, or even drop a bunch of equipment, but given the principle of "moving with the ocean and wind" it should be feasible in all boats. From a survivability standpoint, please explain why one could not ride out a storm?
Rigging
gerry, I would look at how the boat has been used in the past. If it is older and has done alot of hard sailing, I would check the rigging and do it daily. When the hull moves 6" the mast moves that times it's length! The rigging does alot of work. If you know it is in good shape, I would not hesitate to go offshore abit. As for extra tankage, how long are you going offshore? I hope someone with experence will back me, but I think that local shore conditions many times puts up more confused seas and due to shallowing steeper seas. I think that sometime the thought of being closer to shore is really a safety blanket that can actually be dangerous in a gale. If I had bad weather I would rather be out with less worry about leeshore or shallow breakers. If you can not tell when you are pounding the boat, stay close to home. Racers pound the boat to make time but if you are making a passage, you should be able to feel the boat and how much you can drive it into the wind. Falling off and running will relieve much tension in the boat. It may not be the way you want to go, but getting there is important. If you have a crew, remember that there is only so much you can do and that the crew is dependant on your ability! If you take someone into this it should be thought out as to conditions, and survival. What will you do when. A plan is not a plan unless all on board knows it befoe it happens. I was in a race on Erie last summer that a man was lost over board on Friday night and found on the beach on Tuesday. Not bad conditions going out but when we made the turn back it got rough. I could not help with the man overboard because the boat I was crewing on was disabled from seasickness. Yes, the captian and the other crew. My only thought was getting the boat I was in back with all aboard. Like dumbies none of us had on lifejackets and when we realized we needed them we could not take the time to put them on and the green (seasick)could not have saved themselves. Be smart early, wear a jacket and take some anti seasickness. It hits everyone at sometime or another. I had better stop here. r.w.landau
gerry, I would look at how the boat has been used in the past. If it is older and has done alot of hard sailing, I would check the rigging and do it daily. When the hull moves 6" the mast moves that times it's length! The rigging does alot of work. If you know it is in good shape, I would not hesitate to go offshore abit. As for extra tankage, how long are you going offshore? I hope someone with experence will back me, but I think that local shore conditions many times puts up more confused seas and due to shallowing steeper seas. I think that sometime the thought of being closer to shore is really a safety blanket that can actually be dangerous in a gale. If I had bad weather I would rather be out with less worry about leeshore or shallow breakers. If you can not tell when you are pounding the boat, stay close to home. Racers pound the boat to make time but if you are making a passage, you should be able to feel the boat and how much you can drive it into the wind. Falling off and running will relieve much tension in the boat. It may not be the way you want to go, but getting there is important. If you have a crew, remember that there is only so much you can do and that the crew is dependant on your ability! If you take someone into this it should be thought out as to conditions, and survival. What will you do when. A plan is not a plan unless all on board knows it befoe it happens. I was in a race on Erie last summer that a man was lost over board on Friday night and found on the beach on Tuesday. Not bad conditions going out but when we made the turn back it got rough. I could not help with the man overboard because the boat I was crewing on was disabled from seasickness. Yes, the captian and the other crew. My only thought was getting the boat I was in back with all aboard. Like dumbies none of us had on lifejackets and when we realized we needed them we could not take the time to put them on and the green (seasick)could not have saved themselves. Be smart early, wear a jacket and take some anti seasickness. It hits everyone at sometime or another. I had better stop here. r.w.landau
336
Rodney, I think my friend would take his 310 back in very settled weather, but he is more susceptible to motion sickness than average. In reasonable weather conditions, your 336 should do fine. My previous boat was a 336 and really enjoyed her, just wanted the extra room of the 380. We found the boat to be cramped with more than just my wife and I on board on our overnight/weekend trips. Loved the performance, though. Paul Bednarzyk
Rodney, I think my friend would take his 310 back in very settled weather, but he is more susceptible to motion sickness than average. In reasonable weather conditions, your 336 should do fine. My previous boat was a 336 and really enjoyed her, just wanted the extra room of the 380. We found the boat to be cramped with more than just my wife and I on board on our overnight/weekend trips. Loved the performance, though. Paul Bednarzyk
Offshore between the capes w/380
If the only only concern you have on the voyage is the passage between Cape Hatteras and Cape Fear, then go for it. I too have a 380 and enjoy the area. Now having said that, take note of a few precautions. If the wind is anywhere near the east, I would run far offshore or jump in at Okracoke (during high tide)and go through the Pamlico Sound to the ICW and jump back out in Beaufort (Cape Lookout). Hugging the shoreline between the Gulf Stream and shore between Cape Hatteras and Cape Lookout with easterlys is not something to be taken lightly. Once out at Cape Lookout, there is usually a lot of marine traffic including the US Navy. NC has several military compounds and they exercise all types of manuvers near shore. You can jump in at Cape Fear, or Wrightsville Beach. BOth inlets are easy and well marked. There are several shoals offshore in coastal NC, but the biggest hazards are Frying Pan and Diamond and are well marked as well. Good luck and enjoy your trek. Jim Beacham s/v Kittiwake
If the only only concern you have on the voyage is the passage between Cape Hatteras and Cape Fear, then go for it. I too have a 380 and enjoy the area. Now having said that, take note of a few precautions. If the wind is anywhere near the east, I would run far offshore or jump in at Okracoke (during high tide)and go through the Pamlico Sound to the ICW and jump back out in Beaufort (Cape Lookout). Hugging the shoreline between the Gulf Stream and shore between Cape Hatteras and Cape Lookout with easterlys is not something to be taken lightly. Once out at Cape Lookout, there is usually a lot of marine traffic including the US Navy. NC has several military compounds and they exercise all types of manuvers near shore. You can jump in at Cape Fear, or Wrightsville Beach. BOth inlets are easy and well marked. There are several shoals offshore in coastal NC, but the biggest hazards are Frying Pan and Diamond and are well marked as well. Good luck and enjoy your trek. Jim Beacham s/v Kittiwake
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