Offshore/Bluewater Prep (1) Rigging and Sailplan

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Areas of Special Concern: a - stay and shroud strength b - mast strength c - jury-rigging options d - headsail furling e - sailplan balancing f - BandR downwind g - heavy weather sails [a - stay and shroud strength] Average shroud/stay wire gauge (diameter), and thus raw breaking strength, on our type of vessels will tend to be less than that on your typical heavy fullkeeled vessel with similar sail area and mast height. This is not as big a disadvantage as it may seem at first sight. Simply because no offshore/bluewater (os/bw) vessel should have to rely on a shroud NEVER failing in order to keep the mast onboard. No matter how thick the wire, every shroud will have a finite probability of failing, if not because of wire strength than because of eventual damage to the fittings (i.e. turnbuckles and chainplates). There are simply too many links in a single shroud set-up to be absolutely sure that failure will not occur, if not today then perhaps in 5 years. Few cruisers do have the money and facilities to replace their shrouds every few years. A much more efficient way than going way up in size to avoid the severe consequences of possible failure is to provide redundant shouds or stays, as a little bit of statistics will quickly show. Fortunately, to some extent that redundancy is present for the shrouds (and on BandR rigged Hunters for the backstays, if you happen to have them). The most scary stay is usually the forestay. If it fails your mast is likely to come down, certainly with the strong aft-pulling BandR rig and/or in your typical autopilot/windvane controlled os/bw situation. Therefore, adding a babystay, or better a full inner stay is a no-brainer in my book. Als, there are countless additional advantages to that solution, as we will discuss later. With the BandR rig, or other fractional rigs, this should usually be accompanied by running backstays in order to balance the forces on the mast. In case you don't have any fixed backstays, this is again a no-brainer for os/bw cruising. By now, you have added considerable redundancy except when it comes to upper shroud failure. Luck and quick reflexes might save the day here, especially if you happen to have a strong toerail (preferably reinforced with a Wichard or similar toerail-mounted padeye) as well as a heavy snatchblock and can quickly free up your main halyard to provide the necessary counterbalance. For intermediate or lower shroud failure, your running backstays should provide you with several balancing options. A general tip for os/bw cruisers: when you replace your stays and shrouds try to use Norseman or other field-installable fittings where possible. By installing short, threaded lower fittings on the new shrouds and keeping a couple of long threaded spares on board you have a pretty good chance of being able to make easy emergency repairs underway as many wires tend to fail right at the lower fitting (because of crevice corrosion). [b - mast strength] Although a light and flexible mast is not necessarily weaker than a heavy and stiff one that might tend to break rather than bend, the integrity of the stays and shrouds becomes the all-decisive issue in the first case . That is why I decided to discuss that first. If you have done all you can to provide sufficiently strong and redundant standing rigging your relatively light mast construction should not have to bother you (as long as you keep from being rolled, in which case most masts will go overboard anyhow; more about that in later threads). The one special treatment which I have accorded my relatively light mast is to avoid drilling dozens of holes for a full series of mast steps, in spite of the many advantages that may have for conning and fixing masthead problems underway. Instead you may want to look for other solutions for getting up the mast quickly, e.g. the ladder type that can be pulled up in the mast groove with the main halyard. [c - jury-rigging options] When the best-laid plans have failed, for one reason or another, it is a comforting idea to know that you can try to fall back on jury-rig solutions for problems ranging from partial or complete mast failure to holed hulls or lost rudders and that you have an almost infinite number of tie-off points for your most ingenuous contraptions in the form of a full toerail. My heart broke when I saw that most makers of medium light cruisers now have abandoned toerails altogether. I know that it is not easy or cheap to install one either..... So, what can I say? Here in the South Pacific, there are very, very few cruising boats without toerails. If you don't have a toerail, install as many strong padeyes close to the rail as you have time, money and energy to do. Anyone have a better idea? [d - headsail furling] It is probably safe to assume that most of our type vessels are not equipped with top-of-the-line headsail furling systems. Our Legend 43 was equipped with a Hood furling system which lasted approximately 7 years and 25,000 NM before we replaced it(after careful consideration and price vs. construction comparisons) with a......... Hood furler. In 1997 Hood had just come out with a new offshore type that appeared to incorporate many of the construction tricks of the Harken systems (maybe some Harken patents had ended?). At any rate, this system worked very well for us on our Hawaii to Australia, Australie to Vanuatu and Vanuatu to Fiji vv. passages. I am not in the business of selling furlers and am not going to give any type numbers or buy/don't buy recommendations. After all, I may just have been lucky, who knows? I just want to point out that for the typical BandR rigged Hunter with relatively small genoa -- PARTICULARLY WHEN EQUIPPED WITH A STAYSAIL -- the genoa furler never has to do any real heavy duty work, as we will be using the staysail instead of the genoa in all fresh breezes, let alone in heavy weather...... So, what about the strength of the staysail furler? Again, no real problem. Staysails are so small (150 - 200 sq ft range for our Legend 43, if I remember well) that furling and unfurling the sail can be done with relatively litlle force being put on the furler. Our simple Hood endless loop furler has been working fine for 8 years and 30,000 NM, or so. It is getting a little cranky now and needs to be replaced. However, I am not going to buy top-of-the-line gold-coated furlers here either. [e - sailplan balancing] Why discuss that here? After all, every OS/BW sailor needs to pay a lot of attention to that in order to keep the autopilot and/or windvane happy, not to mention heaving-to and a lot of other situations where sail balance makes all the difference. Well, one only has to read the posts on Phil's boards for a little while to realize that a lot of folks are wrestling with this; usually in the form of excessive weather helm. If anything has a way of spoiling an otherwise perfectly good OS/BW passage it is that problem, simply because it is nearly always associated with excessive heel and also tends to keep the crew handsteering, thereby significantly reducing the comfort level onboard. Although I don't have all the answers either, it would seem to me that the shape of our relatively beamy vessels has a lot to do with that problem. Many narrow beam, fullkeeled vessels tend to tolerate heeling better without creating a lot of weather helm. So, balancing the sailplan, especially under breezy conditions, in such a way as to avoid excessive heel and weather helm is something we will need to give special attention to. Again, the most effective way may well be to install an inner stay with staysail, which will keep you on your feet in stronger winds without providing nearly the amount of heeling the typicall poorly furled (baggy) big genoa does. Learning how to flatten both the headsail and the mainsail is very important too. Since this is more difficult with (i) old sails, (ii) sails which cannot be reefed deeply or efficiently enough and (iii) mainsails which lack adequate stiffening battens, everyone will have to asses their biggest liability here. A good friend of us who tried everything he could to reduce weather helm on his new Hunter without much success decided to install a boomfurling type mainsail (with full horizontal battens, I believe). Hope it will do the job. For OS/BW use involving distant ports in 3-rd world countries I would advise anyone to first try to sail without automated furling systems (and as many other advanced mechanical or electrical systems one can manage to do without) in order to avoid sitting in port waiting for special parts. Here in Vanuatu this is probably the "namba wan" reason why expensive Hinckleys, Swans and Oysters tend to do less sailing than we do (i.e. too many gadgets that can break down). [f - BandR downwind] You Catalina and Beneteau sailors can skip this, of course. First of all, I love the BandR rig since it has enabled us to sail upwind (and enjoy doing so) in the Tradewind belts, instead of the one-way downwind ride most other cruisers get here until the Trades disappear long enough (usually when a depression comes through with all the associated bad weather) to enable them temporarily to sail back (not to mention the final sail back to the mainland which often forces them far into the Variables where they risk severe punishments from the polar lows; sorry, I am getting on my soapbox here..). So, do we BandR rig sailors have to pay the pied piper when we need to sail downwind? To a certain extent; yes, we may never enjoy the rush of running downwind under a 150% genoa while the boom is let way out without the tightly vanged main touching the shrouds. However, part of the rush feeling may well come from the risk of the boom dipping into the high swells and causing a spectacular broach. So, what is a BandR rig sailor to do unless he or she wants to use a spinnaker or similar unstayed headsail, thereby experiencing an equal or bigger rush? Well, here comes the staysail again...... Just pole out the staysail to one side and your 90-110% genoa to the other and you are good to go over a 40-50 degree downwind angle, including dead downwind, in very good directional balance with little or no yawing and acceptable rolling behavior. By switching the poles you can add another 20-30 degrees to your total sailable downwind sector. What to do with the main? Just flatten it under second or third reef and center it to provide additional roll resistance (or drop it altogether). Of course, some sailors will argue that they would rather prefer to sail smaller apparent downwind angles (i.e. less than 160 degrees) in order to increase speed and VMG, thereby reducing the need for letting the boom out. In Tradewind areas with big swells, however, we find it very difficult to achive a balanced sailplan that way because the quartering waves keep pushing the stern off course far enough to make steering very difficult for helmsman and autopilot/windvane alike, especially since the main is not really let out far enough to achieve optimum stability (i.e. when the quartering wave pushes the bow upwind the vessel does not like to come back since the main is starting to draw better and wants to round up further). [g - heavy weather sails] Again a topic that may seem a bit out-of-place in this discussion. Why would our vessels need different heavy weather sails and sailplans than a typical heavy fullkeeled cruiser? Well, first of all, trying to heave-to a medium-light finkeeler in a stable manner in heavy weather is often described as difficult or even impossible, e.g. by older textbooks. In fact, our heavy weather experience with Hunter Legends 33.5 and 43, both with shallow draft bulbwingkeels (presumably even harder to heave-to than regular finkeelers) suggests that this is not true. However, careful balancing is necessary and -- once more -- the staysail really shines here, especially as it is positioned closer to the mast and has a continuously adjustible clew thereby allowing us to fine-tune the amount of draw by sheeting the clew more to windward or to leeward. At the same time, it may be neccessary to have a small amount of mainsail out, e.g. using the third reef position (third reefs are an absolute necessity for all os/bw cruisers unless one is set up to deploy a loose-footed trysail instead). In heavy weather no cruise likes to leave the cockpit unless it is absolutely necessary. Certainly a medium-light cruiser with fairly buoyant bow or stern can move strongly enough to make going forward even less desirable (although it is hard to decide what is more risky: a strongly moving but relatively dry deck or a less strongly moving but regularly pooped one). This is one reason why a roller-furled staysail is a great way to switch headsails in a strong breeze as one never has to leave the cockpit. If even the staysail (or very strongly reefed genoa) becomes too large (or baggy) to deploy some type of strorm jib may be needed. We have a Galesail on board for these occasions but have not yet had to deploy it. Another good solution would be a special babystay on which a storm jib could be quickly hanked on. In this thread I do not intend discus the use of drogues, sea anchors etc. This remains reserved for future thread no 6 or 7 (if I remember well). Well, guys, have at it! I know this is far from comprehensive but I am fresh out of breath and need to get on with the rest of my life.... Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II" (Legend 43, hull #1)
 
T

Tim Schaaf

Shroud strength

Notwithstanding Henk's advice to make one's standing rigging as redundant as possible (I agree), but overloading a boat drives the load on the rigging way up, as does adding ballast. For simplicity's sake, one can visualize the windward rigging pulling the windward side of the boat UP, causing it to heel. If there is more weight, there is more load for the same amount of heel. Sooooooo, it may still be advisable to increase the shroud size, a little, since most medium-light cruising boats are carrying a proportionately larger load (or overload). In addition, if one opts for the more corrosion resistant 316 stainless, it is really important to go up a size, as 316 has a considerably lower working and breaking strength than 302 or 304. Henk, I am enjoying the thread. Good job.
 
T

Tom

Henk, by your statement where you say

"You Catalina and Beneteau sailors can skip this, of course. ...the BandR rig since it has enabled us to sail upwind (and enjoy doing so) in the Tradewind belts, instead of the one-way downwind ride most other cruisers get here until the Trades disappear " Are you implying that Catalina and Beneteau's can't sail to weather like a Hunter with a B
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Tom; no downwind BandR PROBLEMS

for Catalina and Beneteau owners is what I meant. As to upwind capability; well...., I would like to think that BandR's downwind problems are somewhat (more than?) compensated by the improved upwind performance. Until we have a Catalina or Beneteau with traditional Marconi rig in Vanuatu, so we can compare upwind performance in the Trades, I have no proof that I am right. So, which Beneteau or Catalina owner is joining us here? :)) Flying Dutchman
 
T

Tom

Henk, Not me but there is a Catalina 36

boat that sails back and forth between the Pacific and Atlantic . His boat's name is "Alaskan Po Boy".....don't know if his boat makes it to Vanuatu though... The C36 is just a single spreader rig, as opposed to othe models. When looking at the Polars it seems like it will do well to weather. One other remark......you mention that in case of "upper shroud failure......... you can quickly free up your main halyard to provide the necessary counterbalance"....... Wouldn't it make more sense to use a spare spinaker or jib halyard? Why use the main? It would seem that you would want to do a *quick* (very quick) tack to the other side to keep the pressure off the side with the broken stay and should not concern yourself with spending all the time and hassle of dropping the main in order to get main halyard. Or am I missing something here.
 
R

R.W.Landau

Henk, I hope you knew what you were in for.

Henk' I think it good advice to add shrouds to compensate for possible problems.Also, that an inner stay is good not only for the one forestay worry, but for the balanced sail plan. I am not sure that the topic of redundant shrouds was understood. I understand it to mean add ,say inner lower shrouds that angle fore and aft if there is only one upper and lower shroud. I agree that it might not be a good idea to not use a stronger mast. Remember that the boat was designed to only take a given load on the compression post and the larger the rigging the force on the compression post. If the boat was to roll I would much perfer to lose the mast than the cabin top. Pleaser correct me if I have misunderstood your thinking. It looks like we will be in rigging and sail plan for a while. Henk, thanks for your insite. r.w.landau
 
T

Tom

OK...One Issue that need to be discussed

One Very important one! Mainsail Reefing You discuss reefing but not the best way to accomplish this. I would rather not venture out of the cockpit, But there is something to be said for the simplicity of regular reefing via hook at gooseneck and reefing ties in the sail. The second is single-line reefing...Though with the "potential" to jam and lots of additional friction getting the reef in. And the Third is 2 line jiffy-reefing, Very nice....But with 3 reef points that bring an extra 6 lines into the cockpit...whew!.... What have others been satisfied with in OS/BW cruising ? (especially when it gets nasty)Any problems with what people have?
 
T

Tim Schaaf

Cherubini's and reefing

Henk, if you are still in Vanuatu in a couple of years, S/Y Casual Water, a Cherubini 33, will be there, with her standard single spreader, double lowers rig, like all the other Cherubinis! And she goes to weather in the tough stuff pretty well, at least as well as her skipper! I will need some credit for your longer waterline, however. Seriously, one additional safety issue relates to a deck stepped, as opposed to a keel stepped mast. The keel stepped mast will often stay up for a little while after loosing a shroud, where a deck stepped mast will not. Of course, the deck stepped mast won't tear a hole in the deck! However, I think that the only boat with a keel stepped mast that Hunter ever produced was the Cherubini 37, although I may be wrong, and, in any case, we have what we have. As far as reefing goes, my preference is for regular jiffy reefing, executed at the mast, while hove to.
 
D

Don Bodemann

Cherubini corrections

Tim, My 1977 Cherubini 33 Hull #0007 came from the factory with a double spreader rig (this was changed mid year as some of the later 77s were single spreader like yours) and for your information, some of the early 30s were keel stepped. They also had a center board which I'm not aware of any other Cherubini Hunter having.
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Tom's mainsail halyard and reefing remarks

I apologize for the shorthand approach to these threads. You are absolutely right about tacking immediately. That is the textbook approach that I would follow myself (fortunately I have not had to try it yet). After that I would prefer using the main halyard since, for the (fractional) BandR rig, one will have to provide a very strong pull in aft direction to minimize the gap in the broken shroud wire and the main halyard would seem to be the most effective for doing that. The spinnaker halyard could help, of course. However, I would be a bit worried about putting that mast sheave under great tension while pulling strongly sideways (the halyard might jump the sheave). The list of all possible vessel improvements for OS/BW cruising is discouragingly long. Therefore, as mentioned earlier, I will keep trying to skip any issues that are not specifically related to preparing a medium-light cruiser/racer for OS/BW work. So, unless you can point out a direct relationship between mainsail reefing methods and our type of vessels I am personally going to skip that topic. This does not mean in any way that it does not belong here but simply that I do not have the energy or motivation to start that discussion up. If anyone else is inspired to discuss it in some detail here, I will be the first to enjoy reading it! BTW I will be traveling for a few days. So please have a great discussion but don't expect responses from me for a while. Flying Dutchman
 
T

Tom

Henk, (or anyone)....pretty basic question

What do you (or any OS/BW cruisers) have for mainsail reefing? 1)Traditional Reef points, with Goosneck hook 2)Single line jiffy reefing 3) 2 line Jiffy reefing What do people like or dislike in what they have?
 
B

bob

henk, i have an underlying question...

i own a hunter legend 40.5 that i use for florida coastal/islands cruising...my boat was primarily designed and built for this purpose, and i couldn't be happier with her... i have a basic question that i ask with all respect to your bluewater experience...the topic of this thread is outfitting my boat for bluewater cruising...i have no doubt that this can be done, as you have done with your legend 43...but if i decide to expand my horizons to bluewater cruising, why shouldn't i sell my boat, and buy another boat (with dedicated sea berths, less open interior, etc) that was specifically designed and built for that purpose... i realize that any production boat would require substantial additional equipping for bluewater cruising...but why take a coastal cruising design, and do the substantial additional work to turn it into a bluewater boat... i realize that an initial answer would be cost...but my current thinking is that i would rather sell my boat and buy a somewhat older bluewater design, and the cost differential wouldn't be that great...a number of the modern bluewater designs, such as the saga 43, will sail well to weather... your thoughts will be appreciated...
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Bob; I understand your position

and Bob Perry's Saga 43 looks like a great vessel, as far as I can see from the specifications, plans and photographs (I have never sailed one or even crawled through its bilges). I certainly have no reason to believe that -- with the proper rig -- she would not go to windward as well or better than our own Legend 43. In fact, at 19,000 lbs the Saga 43 is quite a bit lighter....... So, why am I not doing just what you suggest? Well, like so many other Hunter owners, my wife and I first bought our Legend 43 for coastal sailing (and scuba diving) in the Channel Islands, before gradually setting our sights on further destinations. At that point we had already made most of the necessary upgrades to be safe and sound in the Channel Island area while probably putting another 80 k$, or so, into these upgrades. Not only would much of this money, as well as our personal time investment, have been lost if we would have decided to sell and then start over with a used Saga 43, or similar vessel, but we would probably end up investing another 1 or 2 years and 80 k$ into making that vessel ready as well, aside from the 100 k$, or so, difference right up front So, now you are out of another 180 k$ plus a lot of time, and WHY? Not only is any vessel that is properly prepared for the rocky, unruly, foggy and busy shipping areas of the Channel Islands ready to go to Mexico or Hawaii with little additional preparation but also my co-skipper and wife of 37 years steadfastedly picks larger Hunter Legend or Passage models as her favorite vessel at boatshows, over ANY other vessels she sees there.... Finally, I see no overriding argument to replace a Hunter 43 hull with another lightly built FRG hull produced by a small manufacturer with far less resources at his disposal than Hunter Marine. Basically, there are 3 "cruising myths" that I have tried to debunk over the years on rec.boats.cruising and CWBB, namely: (Myth #1) OS/BW cruising is more demanding on crew and vessel than coastal cruising on the US West Coast or East Coast; (Myth #2) Custom (or semi-custom)-designed and -built hulls by small manufacturers who provide a lot of TLC (i.e. "everything is being laid up by hand and cut to size with a pocket knife" style) are better than production hulls built by large manufacturers using state-of-the-art design, construction and test methods; (Myth #3) choosing the "right boat" is a more important step towards successful cruising than (a) keeping your cruising partner happy; (b) properly preparing yourself and your vessel; and (c) choosing the right cruising destination and lifestyle. See yah out there; Flying Dutchman
 
B

bob

thanks, henk...i take your points...are the....

channel islands you refer to the english channel islands?
 
T

Tom

Henk, Any comments on my previous post

on setting up for reefing mainsail.
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
AKA Santa Barbara Channel Islands!

Bob, you must be an East Coaster or Great Lakes sailor.... ;-)) Flying Dutchman
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Sorry Tom, no time.... try "Search"

Tom, I tried to make clear that I will be unable to engage in such briad discussions if I am going to keep my New Year's Resolution to post a series of installments on OS/BW prepping within the coming weeks and months. However, several past threads have roughly addressed the same questions you are asking. I just typed "reefing" and "techniques" while searching all current and past fora and had no trouble finding at least 10 posts or so that might get you started. Success! Flying Dutchman
 
T

Tom

Henk, Ok....I understand....I just saw you posting

comments to this thread discussing a Saga 43 design vs. your hunter again. And I'd like to bring this discussion BACK to Rigging and Sail Plan not the relative merits of mass construction techniques vs. small semi-custom companies. And YES there are discussions on reefing in the archives. And I am happy with the reefing system I have for Coastal Cruising But just as you said to start off these threads I would like to hear input on Mainsail Reefing as it pertains to Off Shore and Blue Water sailing. I *know* there must be alot of differences to watch out for and issues that might not matter while coastal cruising. Isn't that what this thread is all about?........And not the relative pros
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Sorry, Tom, let me try to explain again

These threads are NOT meant to compare OS/BW techniques with inland and/or coastal sailing techniques in general, since that would amount to writing an entire book on OS/BW sailing. Instead, I am trying to focus on the SPECIFIC OS/BW prepping needs and techniques for relatively light cruisers/racers (which is something you cannot find in most OS/BW books since they tend to be strongly biased towards the heavy end of the sailboat spectrum). Flying Dutchman
 
T

Tim Schaaf

Reefing, Tom

Tom, on my h33, I have luff hooks for the gooseneck, and reefing lines for the clew. I have three reefs. My mainsail is loosefooted and full battened, which allow me to flatten it a bit better than my old main, so I can reef a bit later. My halyards are at the mast, which, for me, works very well. I single hand, mostly, and I have seen few systems where the halyards are led aft where one does not, in fact, have to dart forward to sort out something or other. So, I would rather concentrate everything in one spot, that being the mast. Boats with the luxury of crew might differ in this. I have reef points to secure the bunt of the reefed sail, but make sure not to overtighten them. Sometimes I don't use them at all, since they are not there for stregth, but for orderliness. I certainly have not gone as far afield as Henk (although I am about to), but this system has quite a few thousand miles of offshore and coastal Pacific sailing, and has worked well. The key, I believe, is working out a non-stressful way of reefing, which for me is heaving to. Casual Water then sits quietly, like a duck, and I slack the mainsheet. With the mainsail almost luffing and the boat stopped, it is a snap to reef.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.