Though only a prospective owner, I'd like to discuss the feasibility of the Macgregor 26X platform for an ocean crossing. I'm planning a Seattle-Hawaii-Seattle trip for 2008, and I'd like to do it with a boat I can afford, and use for coastal sailing as well. A representative of the manufacturer suggested that the '26 is not a reasonable boat for such a trip. I'd like to understand why, and if (and how) it could be made so. Anyone? -+- Sid Maxwell, Bothell WA
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A
Alex
Ocean Voyaging
Hello Sid...You know I'm not surprised you got that answer from the company rep. because the fact is he is just that. The last thing they need is the appearance of encouraging anyone to undertake such a passage. Too much direct liability there. The fact also is however that such passages and even global passages have been made on vessels smaller than an X. Vessels that didn't self right! Vessels that could sink! There is a lot of debate about what constitutes a blue water vessel and the heavy displacement folks will swear there is no other way. (Even though they know its been done) but not all agree either. If you read Ocean Voyaging by David M. Parker. A man of many years experience as a sailor and respected as such. He writes in there that after all his years moving to bigger and bigger vessels he finally came to the conclusion that a vessel about in the 27 foot length is the best suited for ocean passages. You'll have to read the book to learn why. Not to mention he covers many other areas on seaworthiness, etc. One thing I have always said and which he obviously agreed on in his book is that you can argue and argue the point all you want but the fact remains that when it comes to ocean passages, some risk is always inherent but the bottom line is how can any vessel that can sink be truly considered fully seaworthy? Sure you aren't going to get as smooth a ride on your journey as you would on a deep keel heavy displacement vessel but it can be done. I myself am hoping to sail from here to Hawaii in the future and I hope to do it in a 25-27 footer. I would definitely take along a sea anchor and a couple of drogues. Follow your dreams.
Hello Sid...You know I'm not surprised you got that answer from the company rep. because the fact is he is just that. The last thing they need is the appearance of encouraging anyone to undertake such a passage. Too much direct liability there. The fact also is however that such passages and even global passages have been made on vessels smaller than an X. Vessels that didn't self right! Vessels that could sink! There is a lot of debate about what constitutes a blue water vessel and the heavy displacement folks will swear there is no other way. (Even though they know its been done) but not all agree either. If you read Ocean Voyaging by David M. Parker. A man of many years experience as a sailor and respected as such. He writes in there that after all his years moving to bigger and bigger vessels he finally came to the conclusion that a vessel about in the 27 foot length is the best suited for ocean passages. You'll have to read the book to learn why. Not to mention he covers many other areas on seaworthiness, etc. One thing I have always said and which he obviously agreed on in his book is that you can argue and argue the point all you want but the fact remains that when it comes to ocean passages, some risk is always inherent but the bottom line is how can any vessel that can sink be truly considered fully seaworthy? Sure you aren't going to get as smooth a ride on your journey as you would on a deep keel heavy displacement vessel but it can be done. I myself am hoping to sail from here to Hawaii in the future and I hope to do it in a 25-27 footer. I would definitely take along a sea anchor and a couple of drogues. Follow your dreams.
T
Tim Bastian
Dream big !!!
Sid, People have told me all of my life that you can’t do this or you can’t do that and I’ve made it a point to prove them wrong. I agree with Alex. Though I don’t believe the Mac 26 was specifically designed to be an ocean passage boat there are a number of sailors that have used similar small boats to make ocean passages. Like everything we do there are risks in making such passages and these risks should not be taken lightly. However with proper preparation and by gaining experience before making such a passage I would think that it can be done in relative safely. I would highly recommend reading Lin and Larry Pardey’s Storm Tactics handbook and watching their Storm Tactics video. The book and video complement each other so don’t buy one with out the other. Lin and Larry sailed around the world in a 24 ft boat and they too say that the best ocean passage boats are in the 25 to 30 ft range. Safety equipment would be at the top of my list before setting off on such an adventure. An EPIRB and a life raft would be at the very top of my list. Good safety harnesses and PFDs would also be a top priority. I would also want a very good set of storm sails and a parachute anchor. A good SSB or ham radio would also be handy so you can call for help if things do get out of control. We are planning a much smaller passage to the Bahamas this spring and I have been called a fool by some for doing so. However there have been many Macs to make this passage safely and I feel that it is a good way to gain some ocean experience. If you would care to bring your boat and join us we would love to have you along. Check out our website http://hcgiles.home.mindspring.com/macflotilla.htm. We presently have 18 boats going and we welcome all who would like to come along. Best of luck, Tim Bastian Zephyr’s Aura Hixson, TN
Sid, People have told me all of my life that you can’t do this or you can’t do that and I’ve made it a point to prove them wrong. I agree with Alex. Though I don’t believe the Mac 26 was specifically designed to be an ocean passage boat there are a number of sailors that have used similar small boats to make ocean passages. Like everything we do there are risks in making such passages and these risks should not be taken lightly. However with proper preparation and by gaining experience before making such a passage I would think that it can be done in relative safely. I would highly recommend reading Lin and Larry Pardey’s Storm Tactics handbook and watching their Storm Tactics video. The book and video complement each other so don’t buy one with out the other. Lin and Larry sailed around the world in a 24 ft boat and they too say that the best ocean passage boats are in the 25 to 30 ft range. Safety equipment would be at the top of my list before setting off on such an adventure. An EPIRB and a life raft would be at the very top of my list. Good safety harnesses and PFDs would also be a top priority. I would also want a very good set of storm sails and a parachute anchor. A good SSB or ham radio would also be handy so you can call for help if things do get out of control. We are planning a much smaller passage to the Bahamas this spring and I have been called a fool by some for doing so. However there have been many Macs to make this passage safely and I feel that it is a good way to gain some ocean experience. If you would care to bring your boat and join us we would love to have you along. Check out our website http://hcgiles.home.mindspring.com/macflotilla.htm. We presently have 18 boats going and we welcome all who would like to come along. Best of luck, Tim Bastian Zephyr’s Aura Hixson, TN
M
Mike
Considerations
I have Sailed to the Bahamas from Key West in a 12' Rhoades Pinguin. The problem with sailing to Hawaii is not the size of the boat. The problem is how much gear and supplies you can take with you and the conditions you will encounter. The Macs, in general, are not a swift boat and the passage will be a very long one. For every one to two hundred pounds you carry, you can expect a drop in speed of about a knot Just the bare minimum of supplies for at least 30 days at sea are going to load you down a ways. Freash water is a major concern, do you carry fresh water or a desalinization unit? Your diet will be limited by what you can carry that won't spoil. Canned ham and meat spreads, cheese, eggs (for a few weeks), dry goods, beans & peas, or you can go the other route and take military rations. What about cooking? Are you single handing it? If so you will need an auto steer system or heave to to fix meals. Are you mentally ready for this trip???? One way to tell if this is for you is to take an 8'x8' tent out camping. Mark an area in front of the tent off that is the size of you cockpit. Spend at least a week (more if possable) camping without leaving the confines of the tent or the roped off cockpit area. It's better to find out if you can live in such a restricted area now. Remenber that you can't get off the boat once your under way. Deep water sailing is great but once you are out there and committed, you have placed your life and boat on the line. A life raft and transponder are NOT a sure fire warranty, you still may not be rescued in an emergency. Bigger ships than yours have gone down with all hands, even within visual range of others. And then there is seaworthyness. Macs are built light so that they can be plopped on a trailer and towed. This lightness is gained by making the hull thinner, the rigging lighter and fittings and gear minimal. In a severe sea, I would have concerns that it would all hold together. The power of wind and waves can be unbelievable. That boat that seemed so big at the dock can shrink to a postage stamp when faced with 40 knot gusts and 15' seas. There are many things that you need to know before you go. GPS is great but you should still carry a sextant and know how to use it. What happens if the GPS is damaged or goes over the side? Books tables and charts are all required safety equipment. Even something as simple as a soup can lable must be considered. As an example: When stocking canned goods, remove the lables and write the contents on the can with magic markers. Moisture will cause those can lables to come loose and you won't know if your going to be eating beans or peaches until you open the can. Worse, that paper lable can clog a bilge pump so fast you can't believe it. Do you take an outboard? If you consider the weight (speed reduction) and the limited amount of fuel you can carry, you might find that it's not worth the transit time it would cost. Sea anchors and a small parachute on the backstay will keep you head on into the waves in high seas. With your freeboard, the outboard would probably be much less effective under these conditions. Can it be done? YES. Are you and your craft ready for this? Thats another matter and only you know. Check with those in your area who have larger boats and have made the crossing. Listen to them and see if you can do the same thing with less boat and supplies. The most important thing you will need is knowledge. Read EVERYTHING you can on boat handling, seasonal weather in you planned sailing areas, survival at sea, emergency repairs under way, health and nutrition, navigation, emergency first aid, the condition of your boat, and examine your own mental abilities to cope. Don't say "I can do this", test yourself and know that "I can do this". Your boat and your life are on the line. THINK, THINK, THINK. IF you and your boat are up to it go for it. But you need to know in advance what you are facing. If you can take into consideration the risks and weigh your ability to deal with them, then go fot it. Expect to work hard every day and when you reach your destination you will experiance a joy known to but a few. Happy sailing, Mike
I have Sailed to the Bahamas from Key West in a 12' Rhoades Pinguin. The problem with sailing to Hawaii is not the size of the boat. The problem is how much gear and supplies you can take with you and the conditions you will encounter. The Macs, in general, are not a swift boat and the passage will be a very long one. For every one to two hundred pounds you carry, you can expect a drop in speed of about a knot Just the bare minimum of supplies for at least 30 days at sea are going to load you down a ways. Freash water is a major concern, do you carry fresh water or a desalinization unit? Your diet will be limited by what you can carry that won't spoil. Canned ham and meat spreads, cheese, eggs (for a few weeks), dry goods, beans & peas, or you can go the other route and take military rations. What about cooking? Are you single handing it? If so you will need an auto steer system or heave to to fix meals. Are you mentally ready for this trip???? One way to tell if this is for you is to take an 8'x8' tent out camping. Mark an area in front of the tent off that is the size of you cockpit. Spend at least a week (more if possable) camping without leaving the confines of the tent or the roped off cockpit area. It's better to find out if you can live in such a restricted area now. Remenber that you can't get off the boat once your under way. Deep water sailing is great but once you are out there and committed, you have placed your life and boat on the line. A life raft and transponder are NOT a sure fire warranty, you still may not be rescued in an emergency. Bigger ships than yours have gone down with all hands, even within visual range of others. And then there is seaworthyness. Macs are built light so that they can be plopped on a trailer and towed. This lightness is gained by making the hull thinner, the rigging lighter and fittings and gear minimal. In a severe sea, I would have concerns that it would all hold together. The power of wind and waves can be unbelievable. That boat that seemed so big at the dock can shrink to a postage stamp when faced with 40 knot gusts and 15' seas. There are many things that you need to know before you go. GPS is great but you should still carry a sextant and know how to use it. What happens if the GPS is damaged or goes over the side? Books tables and charts are all required safety equipment. Even something as simple as a soup can lable must be considered. As an example: When stocking canned goods, remove the lables and write the contents on the can with magic markers. Moisture will cause those can lables to come loose and you won't know if your going to be eating beans or peaches until you open the can. Worse, that paper lable can clog a bilge pump so fast you can't believe it. Do you take an outboard? If you consider the weight (speed reduction) and the limited amount of fuel you can carry, you might find that it's not worth the transit time it would cost. Sea anchors and a small parachute on the backstay will keep you head on into the waves in high seas. With your freeboard, the outboard would probably be much less effective under these conditions. Can it be done? YES. Are you and your craft ready for this? Thats another matter and only you know. Check with those in your area who have larger boats and have made the crossing. Listen to them and see if you can do the same thing with less boat and supplies. The most important thing you will need is knowledge. Read EVERYTHING you can on boat handling, seasonal weather in you planned sailing areas, survival at sea, emergency repairs under way, health and nutrition, navigation, emergency first aid, the condition of your boat, and examine your own mental abilities to cope. Don't say "I can do this", test yourself and know that "I can do this". Your boat and your life are on the line. THINK, THINK, THINK. IF you and your boat are up to it go for it. But you need to know in advance what you are facing. If you can take into consideration the risks and weigh your ability to deal with them, then go fot it. Expect to work hard every day and when you reach your destination you will experiance a joy known to but a few. Happy sailing, Mike
N
Norman
To Hawaii and back, almost.
There was a guy some years ago on the Mac/Venture fourm who claimed he and a friend sailed his Mac25 from LA to Hawaii. The main thing I remember about the thread was that someone asked how long it took, the answear "29 days" then when asked how long the return trip took, he said, 5 hours, by United Airlines. he sold his boat in Hawaii rather than make the trip back. I thought that was kind of funny.
There was a guy some years ago on the Mac/Venture fourm who claimed he and a friend sailed his Mac25 from LA to Hawaii. The main thing I remember about the thread was that someone asked how long it took, the answear "29 days" then when asked how long the return trip took, he said, 5 hours, by United Airlines. he sold his boat in Hawaii rather than make the trip back. I thought that was kind of funny.
R
Robert
Some other reasons....
Hi Sid, You may want to check out www.sailingusa.info/keelboat.htm, and run the specs of the boats that you are considering for use in your passage to Hawaii. Such things as capsize formula and angle of vanishing stability would be something that you would definately want to consider in purchasing a boat such as you are needing. Capsize formula, which should be 2 or less in ocean going sailboats, denotes how stable a vessel is to capsizing. The smaller the number here the better. The angle of vanishing stability, which should be 140 or greater, will give a good idea of how well the boat will right itself from a capsize. The greater the number here, the better. I am relatively new to sailing, but I am lucky to have a mentor who together with his wife just came back from 10 years of circumnavigating the world. He had a Valiant 40, but when asked his preferance, he said he would prefer using a smaller vessel such as a Westsail 32 because of ease of handling and outright safety and durability of the boat. So, out of curiousity, I ran the formulas on this and several other boats and was quite surprised at what I found. Now, I know that it takes more than a bunch of numbers to determine a decent vessel, but it's a start. If you run the numbers on a Westsail 32 and 28, Allied Seawind II, and Mac 26 you will understand fully why the Mac Rep said that the Mac was not a reasonable boat for such a trip. I have a Mac 26S and absolutely enjoy her and would not hesitate doing lake, bay or coastal passages, which is what the boat was designed and built for. I would opt for an ocean going, heavy weather vessel to cross oceans. You know, the right tool for the right job. Best of luck, Robert.
Hi Sid, You may want to check out www.sailingusa.info/keelboat.htm, and run the specs of the boats that you are considering for use in your passage to Hawaii. Such things as capsize formula and angle of vanishing stability would be something that you would definately want to consider in purchasing a boat such as you are needing. Capsize formula, which should be 2 or less in ocean going sailboats, denotes how stable a vessel is to capsizing. The smaller the number here the better. The angle of vanishing stability, which should be 140 or greater, will give a good idea of how well the boat will right itself from a capsize. The greater the number here, the better. I am relatively new to sailing, but I am lucky to have a mentor who together with his wife just came back from 10 years of circumnavigating the world. He had a Valiant 40, but when asked his preferance, he said he would prefer using a smaller vessel such as a Westsail 32 because of ease of handling and outright safety and durability of the boat. So, out of curiousity, I ran the formulas on this and several other boats and was quite surprised at what I found. Now, I know that it takes more than a bunch of numbers to determine a decent vessel, but it's a start. If you run the numbers on a Westsail 32 and 28, Allied Seawind II, and Mac 26 you will understand fully why the Mac Rep said that the Mac was not a reasonable boat for such a trip. I have a Mac 26S and absolutely enjoy her and would not hesitate doing lake, bay or coastal passages, which is what the boat was designed and built for. I would opt for an ocean going, heavy weather vessel to cross oceans. You know, the right tool for the right job. Best of luck, Robert.
A
Alex
We forget something here
Numbers considered one has to remember that with an average heavy displacement deep keel ocean going vessel the numbers stand alone but with the Mac 26X we have an innovation in design which keeps being left out when the numbers are brought uop. That is that "she likes to pop right back up" from lying on her side"
Numbers considered one has to remember that with an average heavy displacement deep keel ocean going vessel the numbers stand alone but with the Mac 26X we have an innovation in design which keeps being left out when the numbers are brought uop. That is that "she likes to pop right back up" from lying on her side"
D
Doug
I'd say no way
While I suppose it is possible to use the 26 in an ocean crossing, It's not a good idea. The most I'd consider is a trip to an offshore island, maybe even the Bahamas from Florida. Weather forecasts could cover the three or four day passage. These boats are inexpensive and lightly made. They are designed for lakes and bays. I like my boat, and I've sailed on the Chesapeake Bay in my 26S for some time now. While it's been a great boat for the price, I know it's limitations. With a 26X, I bet it's not worth putting a motor on at all, considering the fuel you'd need to carry to run it any length of time. Playing off a previous writer's tent idea, consider spending 30 days in a low cost tent from Wal-Mart, versus a higher end tent from a camping store. If your tent collapses and blows away, you're in a world of hurt. If you're going to go through the planning an ocean crossing, get a more stout boat.
While I suppose it is possible to use the 26 in an ocean crossing, It's not a good idea. The most I'd consider is a trip to an offshore island, maybe even the Bahamas from Florida. Weather forecasts could cover the three or four day passage. These boats are inexpensive and lightly made. They are designed for lakes and bays. I like my boat, and I've sailed on the Chesapeake Bay in my 26S for some time now. While it's been a great boat for the price, I know it's limitations. With a 26X, I bet it's not worth putting a motor on at all, considering the fuel you'd need to carry to run it any length of time. Playing off a previous writer's tent idea, consider spending 30 days in a low cost tent from Wal-Mart, versus a higher end tent from a camping store. If your tent collapses and blows away, you're in a world of hurt. If you're going to go through the planning an ocean crossing, get a more stout boat.
J
Jerry
I'd turn back, if I were you
While I do get irksome at those who say a Mac 26, with water balast, is not a real boat,- For your purpose, I must agree with them. Shop for a more worthy, used, ocean cruiser. The middle of the Pacific is no place to mess around on a cheap, plastic toy. And, I mean this lovingly because I own one (26s). -jerry
While I do get irksome at those who say a Mac 26, with water balast, is not a real boat,- For your purpose, I must agree with them. Shop for a more worthy, used, ocean cruiser. The middle of the Pacific is no place to mess around on a cheap, plastic toy. And, I mean this lovingly because I own one (26s). -jerry
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