this is slightly longer than your average post, but it may well be worth reading if you are running a 2 stroke engine.... in anything. TC-w3 rated oils vs. the old and better style 2 stroke oil.
not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting.
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Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
The only thing worse then and anchor thread is and oil thread
The only thing worse then and anchor thread is and oil thread
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
according to the article,
snowmobile oil (JASO/ISO or API-TC) has better qualities than a TC-w3 oil for the engine.... the TC-w3 oil is slightly better for the enviroment as it is ashless..... the others are "low ash"
for water cooled engines it may make little difference, but for the air cooled ones it can be very noticeable....
the JASO/ISO oil is the same as the API-TC oil.... both have the best lubricating qualities for 2stroke engines, and should be used in air cooled engines and some manufactures will void the warrenty if a TC-w3 oil is used in it.
the TC-w3 is a newer formulation forced on to the oil companies and the public by legislation....
according to the article,
snowmobile oil (JASO/ISO or API-TC) has better qualities than a TC-w3 oil for the engine.... the TC-w3 oil is slightly better for the enviroment as it is ashless..... the others are "low ash"
for water cooled engines it may make little difference, but for the air cooled ones it can be very noticeable....
the JASO/ISO oil is the same as the API-TC oil.... both have the best lubricating qualities for 2stroke engines, and should be used in air cooled engines and some manufactures will void the warrenty if a TC-w3 oil is used in it.
the TC-w3 is a newer formulation forced on to the oil companies and the public by legislation....
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
What could EVERY outboard manufacture possibly know and I am sure they support the use of inferior oil that increases there warranty issues
All TC what ever oils are done in a real test on real outboards with the wear measured to be certified which always causes issues with non-certified oils
What could EVERY outboard manufacture possibly know and I am sure they support the use of inferior oil that increases there warranty issues
All TC what ever oils are done in a real test on real outboards with the wear measured to be certified which always causes issues with non-certified oils
As the son of an outboard mechanic that was in his prime at the time the TC-W3 oils really became standard in the market, and saw firsthand the dramatic difference in engine life from their use, I can tell you first hand that the ashless component is VERY important for the long life of a 2-stroke engine, and I for one will never put anything else in my engine.
BTW, TC-W3® is a NMMA-owned trademark, it is something the oil companies must pay get their product quality certified to use that term, it is NOT an oil company owned name, and the NMMA is the one setting the standards to which the oil must be formulated to.
EDIT, wanted to add the certification must be renewed annually by the oil company, it's not a get it once and use it for life thing.
http://www.nmma.org/certification/certification/oil/tc-w3.aspx
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
All of the changes to oils, all oils, not just 2 stroke, have been brought about primarily by EPA and insurance companies, either for alleged environmental reasons, or rediculous and unfounded safety reasons such as fire potential of large stocks of product. Almost none of the changes have been made with any effort or concern to increase engine performance or longevity. They have removed zinc from 4 stroke oils, which has led to many severe problems with older piston engines. And they have turned outboard 2 stroke oils into something closer to liquid soap rather than actual oil.
Back in the day, 2 stroke oil was 2 stroke oil. Chainsaw, snowmobile, dirt bike, it was all the same. And well made engines that were maintained and had proper oil/fuel mixes had very long lives. It was not uncommon back in the 1980's, to come across old outboards and chainsaws from the 40's and 50's that had never been apart, by evidence the original paint was on the engine, screws and gaskets, and many still ran perfectly. But reductions in oil mix, first 50:1, and then some recommending 100:1 mixes in those old motors, brought rapid ends to those motors and they dropped like flies. It is interesting that all motor manufactures now limit ratios to 50:1, they all learned their lesson.
Anyway, call me nuts but I run high quality chainsaw oil in all two strokes, outboards included. I also bypass and/or remove oil injection systems and run mixed fuel. When, not if the oil injection system fails, and they all fail, lubrication failure will destroy your motor. I run close to 50:1 (40:1 to just below 50:1) in outboards, but I like closer to 30:1 in my saws. And I do not run synthetics.
Why? Because I am sick and tired of having to read and memorize all the changes coming down the pike every few months of how or which oil they screwed up this time. Chainsaws work harder and run hotter than almost any 2 stroke, and rev higher than almost any other 2 stroke engine short of model airplane engines. If the bearings and rings and cylinder can stay clean and lubricated in one a chainsaw, that oil will work in an outboard. And ive never had a failure in either one when it was mixed right. Unlike most engines, chainsaws are often carted miles and miles into the backwoods, and many are flown in to fight forest fires. The saws, as well as the oils and saw chains, lead a tough life and yet must always perform. Any failures are rapidly seen and heard in the market, and can make or break a competitor in that market almost overnight. Generally, chainsaws dont have oil failures. Well, unless you dont mix any oil into the fuel, or not enough.
My brother put straight gas into my big 064 Stihl and it didnt make it halfway through a log before it destroyed the piston and froze. Fricken thing was 15 years old and ran like a top, and then was destroyed in about 4 seconds. I wanted to throw it at him.
All of the changes to oils, all oils, not just 2 stroke, have been brought about primarily by EPA and insurance companies, either for alleged environmental reasons, or rediculous and unfounded safety reasons such as fire potential of large stocks of product. Almost none of the changes have been made with any effort or concern to increase engine performance or longevity. They have removed zinc from 4 stroke oils, which has led to many severe problems with older piston engines. And they have turned outboard 2 stroke oils into something closer to liquid soap rather than actual oil.
Back in the day, 2 stroke oil was 2 stroke oil. Chainsaw, snowmobile, dirt bike, it was all the same. And well made engines that were maintained and had proper oil/fuel mixes had very long lives. It was not uncommon back in the 1980's, to come across old outboards and chainsaws from the 40's and 50's that had never been apart, by evidence the original paint was on the engine, screws and gaskets, and many still ran perfectly. But reductions in oil mix, first 50:1, and then some recommending 100:1 mixes in those old motors, brought rapid ends to those motors and they dropped like flies. It is interesting that all motor manufactures now limit ratios to 50:1, they all learned their lesson.
Anyway, call me nuts but I run high quality chainsaw oil in all two strokes, outboards included. I also bypass and/or remove oil injection systems and run mixed fuel. When, not if the oil injection system fails, and they all fail, lubrication failure will destroy your motor. I run close to 50:1 (40:1 to just below 50:1) in outboards, but I like closer to 30:1 in my saws. And I do not run synthetics.
Why? Because I am sick and tired of having to read and memorize all the changes coming down the pike every few months of how or which oil they screwed up this time. Chainsaws work harder and run hotter than almost any 2 stroke, and rev higher than almost any other 2 stroke engine short of model airplane engines. If the bearings and rings and cylinder can stay clean and lubricated in one a chainsaw, that oil will work in an outboard. And ive never had a failure in either one when it was mixed right. Unlike most engines, chainsaws are often carted miles and miles into the backwoods, and many are flown in to fight forest fires. The saws, as well as the oils and saw chains, lead a tough life and yet must always perform. Any failures are rapidly seen and heard in the market, and can make or break a competitor in that market almost overnight. Generally, chainsaws dont have oil failures. Well, unless you dont mix any oil into the fuel, or not enough.
My brother put straight gas into my big 064 Stihl and it didnt make it halfway through a log before it destroyed the piston and froze. Fricken thing was 15 years old and ran like a top, and then was destroyed in about 4 seconds. I wanted to throw it at him.
its like everything else in life, everyone has their own ideas of what is right and what works for them..... but when the big name manufactures, developing and installing expensive air cooled engines say their testing shows a certain type of oil will harm the engine, and its clearly conclusive, I will give it good consideration before I continue to use it in my engine....
As I look at my bottle of TC-w3 oil, I see it says it is "recommended by all the leading manufactures of 2 cycle water cooled engines" and "all other 2 cycle engines where an engine oil meeting TC-w3, TC-w, or JASO M 345 FB standards is recommended"
yet on my bottles of 2cycle oil that came with my new chainsaw and with my weed whacker, it clearly states that it "exceeds JASO FC and ISO L-EGD specifications for air cooled engines".... which is a higher temp rating than the TC-w3 offers.
most outboards are water cooled and the TC-w3 is fine for them, but the air cooled ones, (my dinghy motor) powersaws, weed whackers and such, run at higher temps.
TC-w3 oil will work, as would regular engine oil in a pinch....
my dad used regular engine oil to mix his gas for all his 2 stroke engines, water cooled or otherwise, and he never had a problem except with the smoking an plug fouling once in awhile.... so it probably doesnt really matter unless the engine it being run at WOT for long periods, but the article is interesting... to me anyway.
one thing I will add that has came to mind after reading the article...and it may be a coincidence, but in the past 10 years since I have been using the TC-w3 oil, i have burnt up a few weed whackers, 1 blower and 1 chainsaw... Ive blamed it on the cheap imported junk that is available, but i have been using the TC-w3 oil and with this information I will be able to change oils and see if it may have been the oil that has been the problem, rather than the imported equipment.
As I look at my bottle of TC-w3 oil, I see it says it is "recommended by all the leading manufactures of 2 cycle water cooled engines" and "all other 2 cycle engines where an engine oil meeting TC-w3, TC-w, or JASO M 345 FB standards is recommended"
yet on my bottles of 2cycle oil that came with my new chainsaw and with my weed whacker, it clearly states that it "exceeds JASO FC and ISO L-EGD specifications for air cooled engines".... which is a higher temp rating than the TC-w3 offers.
most outboards are water cooled and the TC-w3 is fine for them, but the air cooled ones, (my dinghy motor) powersaws, weed whackers and such, run at higher temps.
TC-w3 oil will work, as would regular engine oil in a pinch....
my dad used regular engine oil to mix his gas for all his 2 stroke engines, water cooled or otherwise, and he never had a problem except with the smoking an plug fouling once in awhile.... so it probably doesnt really matter unless the engine it being run at WOT for long periods, but the article is interesting... to me anyway.
one thing I will add that has came to mind after reading the article...and it may be a coincidence, but in the past 10 years since I have been using the TC-w3 oil, i have burnt up a few weed whackers, 1 blower and 1 chainsaw... Ive blamed it on the cheap imported junk that is available, but i have been using the TC-w3 oil and with this information I will be able to change oils and see if it may have been the oil that has been the problem, rather than the imported equipment.
I believe you are spot on with this, TC-W3 oil is for water cooled (aka pretty low temperature) engines running below 6000 RPM, the snow mobile oils and other types of oils are for engines running at higher temps or higher RPMs, or both.
Use the correct oil for the engine and you'll see much better results.
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
Anchor, do you use a particular type of chainsaw oil? Where do you get it?
Anchor, do you use a particular type of chainsaw oil? Where do you get it?
as the thread title says, not all 2stroke oils are created the same what i have found out is... there are 2 cycle oils formulated for water cooled engines and there are 2 cycle oils formulated for air cooled engines....
they are different and they have different properties, and the one for the water cooled engine shouldnt be used in an air cooled engine if you want longevity.
I only offered some information, not to worry anyone, but maybe it will make a difference in your pocketbook some day...
they are different and they have different properties, and the one for the water cooled engine shouldnt be used in an air cooled engine if you want longevity.
I only offered some information, not to worry anyone, but maybe it will make a difference in your pocketbook some day...
Buy Stihl. American made and the best. The problem with the older models is the emissons and the availability of parts. Just had some work done on my late 70's model chain saw. Many parts are no longer available.
Stihl also has quality oil for two cycle engines.
ryobi oil at lowes and home depot is an oil with the proper designation for air cooled two cycle engines.
master mechanic has it titled on their bottle, "2 cycle oil for all air cooled engines"
and as Steve Dion said, the stihl oil.... I checked today at the saw shop and the cycle shop and they both confirmed what I have just found out and thought i would share
I have 2 different brands of TC-w3 oil and they both say for water cooled engines.... so it seems that its a fairly common thing from several manufactures, but a lot of people, including myself, dont seem to read the labels correctly... and others probably dont care
master mechanic has it titled on their bottle, "2 cycle oil for all air cooled engines"
and as Steve Dion said, the stihl oil.... I checked today at the saw shop and the cycle shop and they both confirmed what I have just found out and thought i would share
I have 2 different brands of TC-w3 oil and they both say for water cooled engines.... so it seems that its a fairly common thing from several manufactures, but a lot of people, including myself, dont seem to read the labels correctly... and others probably dont care
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
I've been using Shell Nautilus oil (and ethanol-free gas) for about 7 seasons on our 1981 Suzuki 5 HP. I disassembled the carb last year and everything was clean and nice, and the plugs are still clean.
I've been using Shell Nautilus oil (and ethanol-free gas) for about 7 seasons on our 1981 Suzuki 5 HP. I disassembled the carb last year and everything was clean and nice, and the plugs are still clean.
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
Winkfish, I generally buy Stihl, but any top brand of chainsaw oil will be fine, or run one of the premium motorcycle racing 2 stroke oils.
There is enough information online to keep a guy confused for days if you want real answers. Google "flash point of motor oils, or "2 stroke vs 4 stroke oils". If you read about all the different applications, not just boat motors, you'll find its not rocket science. Back in the day they simply added standard 30W oil in ratios up to 32:1 in virtually all 2 strokes and didnt have trouble, and in racing they used castor oil, often in alcohol blends more similar to model airplane fuels complete with nitromethane. In fact racing outboards for many decades used castor oil, and many of the synthetics are close derivatives. Motul for example, has vegetable and coconut oil derivatives in its makeup. My understanding of moving away from regular motor oil was to find an oil that produced less ash. The ashless or low ash oils burned much cleaner and left behind less residues.
Lots and lots to read, or not. In the end you either live in bliss, make your life extremely complicated, or figure out ways to simplify it.
Winkfish, I generally buy Stihl, but any top brand of chainsaw oil will be fine, or run one of the premium motorcycle racing 2 stroke oils.
There is enough information online to keep a guy confused for days if you want real answers. Google "flash point of motor oils, or "2 stroke vs 4 stroke oils". If you read about all the different applications, not just boat motors, you'll find its not rocket science. Back in the day they simply added standard 30W oil in ratios up to 32:1 in virtually all 2 strokes and didnt have trouble, and in racing they used castor oil, often in alcohol blends more similar to model airplane fuels complete with nitromethane. In fact racing outboards for many decades used castor oil, and many of the synthetics are close derivatives. Motul for example, has vegetable and coconut oil derivatives in its makeup. My understanding of moving away from regular motor oil was to find an oil that produced less ash. The ashless or low ash oils burned much cleaner and left behind less residues.
Lots and lots to read, or not. In the end you either live in bliss, make your life extremely complicated, or figure out ways to simplify it.
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
The Stihl Chainsaw oil DEFINITELY makes for better life extension in all chainsaws. The local 'tree service crew' that I deal with put me onto the Stihl oil several years ago ... Im 'aggressive' with my saws and usually entirely rebuild a saw 'once' and have noticed the prolonged life (bearings and cylinder wall) with the Stihl oil. It also doesnt form the gums in the carburetors as fast as 'common' 2 cycle oil. Now locally where I live ALL the 'good' saw vendors (Stihl, Husqvarna, etc.) have it in stock.
The Stihl Chainsaw oil DEFINITELY makes for better life extension in all chainsaws. The local 'tree service crew' that I deal with put me onto the Stihl oil several years ago ... Im 'aggressive' with my saws and usually entirely rebuild a saw 'once' and have noticed the prolonged life (bearings and cylinder wall) with the Stihl oil. It also doesnt form the gums in the carburetors as fast as 'common' 2 cycle oil. Now locally where I live ALL the 'good' saw vendors (Stihl, Husqvarna, etc.) have it in stock.
Re: not all 2stroke oils are created the same... interesting
I noticed that as well Rich, that and the fuel doesnt turn sour very fast. Ive had gas cans with fuel over a year old that was still fully useable.
I noticed that as well Rich, that and the fuel doesnt turn sour very fast. Ive had gas cans with fuel over a year old that was still fully useable.
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