Non self tailing winches

[john6206]

Hey everyone,

the 1983 Catalina 30 I looked at yesterday has non self tailing winches. Are those useful?
I almost think that should be my first boat project.

actually the first project would be sourcing rebuilt winches.

for context, I’ve used self tailing winches on larger boats, and I find the winches on my Capri 18 fairly useless. But the 135 Genoa on the Capri is small enough to easily pull it like a dinghy.

 

[dmax]

Swapping them out as the first project sounds right - especially on a 30 footer.

 

[DArcy]

the 1983 Catalina 30 I looked at yesterday has non self tailing winches. Are those useful?

They are useful, you would not be able to sheet the genoa without them. BUT...

I had non-self tailing winches on my C&C27. Swapping them out to self tailing was the best boat project I did on that boat. Definitely consider the budget for new winches in pricing out that boat.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I wouldn’t make it my first project. We had non-self tailing winches on a 28 foot boat and never minded them. On our current 37’ boat we do have self tailers. It’s a little easier to trim with self tailers but I wouldn’t consider it a necessity. It just means you need two hands to trim in, and a few seconds to cleat before leaving the sheet unattended. Not a very big deal. With three or four turns of the sheet it should be easy to keep the line from slipping as long as you have a hand on the tail. If you sail the boat for a bit and decide you really want to upgrade then go ahead, but I wouldn’t make it a priority without trying what you have first.

 

[john6206]

So… is the technique one hand on the tail and the other on the winch handle?
with my Capri 18, the sheet just slips on the drum.

 

[shemandr]

I had a Ranger 29 without self tailers. A dodger, cockpit shower, depth finder, mast painting, a new outhaul and many other projects got done before those self tailers.

 

[Davidasailor26]

So… is the technique one hand on the tail and the other on the winch handle?

Yes, exactly. Keeping a bit of tension on the tail makes the friction needed to keep the line from slipping over the drum.

 

[jssailem]

the technique one hand on the tail and the other on the winch handle

Yes.
If it slips, add another wrap.
The sail is most often trimmed by hauling in the sheet. No winch is needed. You can also add friction by running the line under the cleat horn and tailing it in your hand while you run the winch handle.

Sailing with a crew means having four hands available.

Solo sailing self-tailing winches means not having to hear the phrase.
"This is too hard. I thought I would just be sitting in the sunshine."

 

[dmax]

In a blow, you can't use two hands to grind the winch unless you have two people with non-self-tailers, not ideal. To me, they are night and day.

 

[JBP-PA]

I'm with David, you might want to replace them, but not as your first project. Thousands of people use non self tailing winches just fine. Aside from safety issues, sail your boat for a year and then decide what are the priority upgrades.

 

[dlochner]

If winches are slipping there are not enough wraps on the winch or the winch is too smooth, there should be some etching on the drum to increase the friction and holding power.

When I've purchased used boats, the priorities are:

1. Safety Items (and one or two items just because I want them, but only one or two)
2. Essential maintenance/preserving value
3. Ease of use
4. Comfort
5. Improved sailing (new sails, etc)
6. Cosmetics

New self-trailers would be in the third category.

 

[Tally Ho]

Sailors have used non-self-tailing winches for a long time. And on any boats with self-trailers, there is a set of non-self tailing winches on the coaming for a spinnaker or other head sail. They do the job, BUT they are not as convenient as a self-tailing winches on the.

I single hand a lot, and often crank on the jib sheet with one hand while steering with the other. Or I need 2 hands to crank on the genoa sheet in a bit of a blow.

My 1988 boat had self trailers, but they seemed too small. So one winter I took the cabin-top winches off and sold them. Then I moved my primary winches to the cabin-top and I found 2 old, neglected larger winches to mount as my primaries.

A few things to keep in mind…

- You probably won’t be able to just remove and replace winches. The bolt holes/patterns won’t line up. So that means filling the old holes with epoxy, marking and drilling new holes using the “drill &fill” method where you drill over-sized holes first, fill with epoxy and then drilling new the new holes for the bolts. This helps seal the deck so you don’t get water damage in the coring.

- Getting to the underside of the winches can be a challenge. In my case, I had to remove the cabin liner in the head and aft berth to get to the cabin-top winches. One of the primaries was easy to get access to from the lazzerette, but the other side had to be accessed through a small access hole on the ceiling of the aft berth. Not easy to get new backing Plates up there, let alone hold it in place while getting nuts on the bolts.

- If you are sourcing used winches, getting parts may be an issue. In my case, one of the internal bearing cages on my old salvaged winch is cracked (the plastic bearing cage). I don’t know how I am going to replace the bearing at this point (but it is holding up for now). Pawls and springs from different brands may be close enough to work. But just know that some manufacturers are no longer in business.

Here is a video of the Barlow 27 salvaged winches I got for my “new” primaries!

They are still on Tally Ho and servicing me me well.

Greg

 

[Ward H]

I suspect your 83 has the curved traveler? If it does I would replace that with a straight one from Garhauer before I replaced the winches.

 

[stevenhagberg]

I had a '77 C30 with non-self tailing winches. I single-handed it a lot.
I was used to sailing a 43' boat with self-trailers and thought that upgrading the winches would be one if the first things I would do. I sold the boat 10 years later and never changed the winches.
I found that without self trailers I became a better sailor, really focusing on the timing while tacking so I could usually trim the sheet by hand except for a couple of turns at the very end. The cleats were well placed and jammed with just a turn under both horns. It took me awhile to trust that but they never slipped.
the money I would have spent on winches went to new sails. Now that was a MAJOR improvement.
My current C30 has self tailers. Nice to have but mostly because not having cleats on the coming gives me more places to sit while sailing.
And yeh, the traveler is another upgrade that is more worth doing than the winches.
And after that adjustable jib lead cars from Garhauer. Better upgrade than winches.
Of course if money is no object, do it all!
Good luck. I think you will enjoy your boat.

 

[jssailem]

without self trailers I became a better sailor, really focusing on the timing while tacking so I could usually trim the sheet by hand except for a couple of turns at the very end. The cleats were well placed and jammed with just a turn under both horns. It took me awhile to trust that but they never slipped.
the money I would have spent on winches went to new sails. Now that was a MAJOR improvement.

Nice to have but mostly because not having cleats on the coming gives me more places to sit while sailing.

Truth in them words...

 

[dmax]

The beauty of self tailers is that you don't have to use them as such

 

[Benny17441]

On a 30' boat any type of winch is useful. It is just a matter of getting used to non-self tailing winches. Had a pair of Barient 22's Two speed winches and never had a problem. The secret is placing enough wraps in the drums for the anticipated load.

 

[Joe]

You guys know what non self tailing winches are known as in the marine equipment world?............. STANDARD winches. Racing sailors still prefer standard winches where speed is more important than one handed ness. That's why they still sell 'em.

Tailing and grinding a winch is basic crew work in sailing. The grinder provides the power by cranking the winch handle to turn the gears that turn the drum. The tailer, who is also the trimmer in the team, will pull on the line which is wrapped around the drum.
This resulting friction engages the drum's connection to the power of the winch which, in turn, gives assistance to the trimmer's effort in controlling the sheet.
Grinding and Tailing.... that's two peoples.... But... you can operate the winch single handed too... no problem. Use one hand to tail and the other to grind. If you have a well placed cam cleat or open jam cleat.. you can quickly snap the line in to change position for the tailing hand while you continue grinding with the other hand. Instead of trying to go full circle turning the winch handle, (hard on the shoulder) With a maximum of 3 wraps on the drum, pull the sheet in most of the way by hand before going to the winch. When winch power is needed, insert the handle with one hand, holding the sheet with the other or snapping it in the cam cleat. When ready to start winching last couple feet, .....tail with one hand while you grind with the other... using a ratchet motion, no round and round. If you're on a single speed winch, then the ratchet part is easy.... almost natural. With a two speed winch you'll have to develop the skill to ease the tail to reset the handle position. Think of it as feathering the clutch on a manual transmission car. That's actually what you're doing when you tail a winch... kinda in reverse tho..

But look, here's the deal....... there are so many other significant priorities on upgrading older boats. A reliable autopilot for instance. Standing rigging, modern electronics, proper plumbing and electrical, fresh sails............ When I acquired this boat back in 99 I thought the winches needed upgrading to self tailing also...... but it's so expensive and once you're used to the standards they move down the priority list. I just couldn't justify it, when I want stuff that really improved my sailing... rigid vang, new sails, adjustable jib leads.... lots of garhaurer stuff...... y'all know what I'm talking about.... the years went by and I still could justify spending 4 K on shiny winches when the old standard 2 speed barlows were so strong and reliable..... but I finally did...

Quite frankly, the main reason I upgraded to the ST's was part vanity and mainly because I had the money and because WM had a triple bonus credit promotion at the same time as the yearly 2 for 1 Lewmar sale. As someone once said... "it was an offer I couldn't refuse. After the triple (in reality 12%) store dollars and the half price saving.... wow... I ended up with a new chartplotter allowing the creation of a N2k network which inspired me to acquire more stuff......... new instruments, audio, tiller pilot, vhf, AIS....... yeah.... and after that I decided the deck needed a kiwi-grip make over, along with beautiful new stanchions and lifelines with the "real" pelican hooks........ and ... whoo boy... I've always wanted a dodger..... not a crappy one.. but a really wonderful piece of canvas artwork. I'll take a new dodger over shiny winches any day.... So after putting 20k into a 6k boat... over 25 years... I'll say this:... enjoy your boat for a season, only replace what's really needed, make a new list next year.

 

[fox9988]

The Barton Wincher (Pair) - Barton Marine

A specially designed rubber moulding which fits over the top of standard winches, converting them to self-tailing. This simple operation works when the line is sheeted under load, which means the coils climb up the winch drum and then become gripped by the underside of the Wincher’s rubber body.

bartonmarine.com

Not perfect but worth the money.

 

[stevenhagberg]

... When I acquired this boat back in 99 ....... So after putting 20k into a 6k boat... over 25 years... I'll say this:... enjoy your boat for a season, only replace what's really needed, make a new list next year.

Very good post. I am most impressed that you managed to keep your expenses for improvements to less than $1,000 a year!