Newbie w/ questions about vessel length

Joe · May 8, 2015

For me..... 22 ft plus. Acceptable coziness is relative to your crew. Just be judicious with your bathroom use because Catalina has some strict regs regarding MSD's.

That said.... concentrate on your sailing lessons and getting experience on a variety of boats.

markwesti · May 8, 2015

Well Chris it all depends on your comfort level . If you are going to charter , I would say 30'-35' would be nice . Back in the 80s' Ms. Westi and I would spend 2 wks. at the Isthmus on our 23' O'Day . If you are looking for your first boat , that's a different story . Our current boat is a Westsail 28' , it has storage like you wouldn't believe . How long do you plan to stay? I will guess you plan to go to Avalon or the Isthmus both have shore facilities , so storage really is not a factor . The main thing is have fun . One hint . If you plan to go to the Isthmus, by the time you get there it will be blowing pretty good so request a mooring on the far left side , because it will be less crowded there . And look for us ! One last thing the Buffalo Milk awesome .

Brian S · May 8, 2015

I know of a guy who would sail his O'day 192 (18.5') out to Catalina solo. He would just pick his weather window wisely. I would not sail mine through the Pacific like that, but with time and experience on larger bodies of water, I'd get more comfy with the idea. Part of the answer is 1) how big a boat to feel safe? and in your case 2) how big a boat for 4 people for how long? So, like you said, you'd be ok with 4 people overnight...

Kings Gambit · May 8, 2015

Chris_X said:
Thanks for the advice. I would probably just stay one night and come back home. After a succesful trip to Catalina, trips to San Diego or Santa Barbara would be something I'd like to tackle!

I after i complete the class, I plan on buying a lido 14 or cat 16/18 to practice on so I can experience as much as I can in a harbour. Once I get experience and feel very comfortable, I'd like to move up to something larger that is capable of going in the open ocean. Hopefully I will befriend someone who can teach me more and possibly give me more hands on knowledge before I plan to go to Catalina on my own time!

A couple of things that might not mean much now, but will when it comes time to go. The magnetic course to Isthmus Cove at Two Harbors from the Long Beach Breakwater (Queen's Gate) is about 208-210 deg. The summer afternoon wind is typically out of 240 deg M (southwest), often at 15 kt; so, you most likely will not be sailing directly to Isthmus Cove unless you plan to beat over there against 3 to 4 ft seas. Most people will motor outbound before the afternoon wind gets up [if they have sense enough] and sail home on the broad reach. However, the course to Avalon is more favorable for sailing over.

In any event, whether you're going to do that or not, bigger is better. You'll stay drier, get there faster in both directions, and ultimately have a more enjoyable trip, IMHO. What size?---the biggest boat that a charter company will let you take that you can "afford." Splitting the cost with another couple has worked for us. I'd go for no smaller than 34 ft; 38 or 39 ft is better for two couples; 42 to 44 ft probably best all around, but much more pricey. However, many people make this trip in just about every size boat from a 20 to 22 footer & up. Your dime, your call! Just remember--the further the cockpit and helm station are from the bow (length), and the higher above the waterline (freeboard)--the drier and safer "feeling!" If you're wet, you're cold and the ladies will not like that!!

Joe · May 9, 2015

If you have to wait till you can acquire a 35 ft boat just to go to Catalina..... you might never go anywhere. Don't get ahead of yourself on this plan.. it will evolve as you learn more.

Anonymous 121765 · May 9, 2015

Chris,

I think it's great that you wanna take up sailing pal.

Reading the replies here, I would also like to add this:

Learning to sail on your first boat takes time & patience. Sailing a boat is only part of the learning course. You have to learn about tides, conditions, weather, rules of the road, equipment, safety, navigation etc. etc. before you make that trip to Catalina the first time.

Remember the phrase, "The Prudent navigator............". You will hear this alot in courses.

If it were me or I you, I would get together with a sailing club & cut your teeth while learning the ropes with more experienced sailors on their boats. You will learn correct ways rather than fumbling thru mistakes on your own. Take local sails & trips to the island with experienced sailors first.

Knowledge & confidence will follow remembering to work smart, not hard. Personally, the smallest boat I would use is a 28 footer for ocean trips. When conditions get big, boats get small. You will never forget the first time you experience fear while in a storm.

CR

Kings Gambit · May 9, 2015

Joe said:
If you have to wait till you can acquire a 35 ft boat just to go to Catalina..... you might never go anywhere. Don't get ahead of yourself on this plan.. it will evolve as you learn more.

Well he does not have to buy one! There are two charter companies in Rainbow Harbor @ Long Beach where he can get boats in a range of lengths. I used one company myself for several charters in the past 15 yr. For example, when I owned my 30-ft Pearson and my wife and I wished to go to Cat Harbor with another couple for a 4-day weekend, we chartered the Catalina 42, etc. In my opinion, newbies SHOULD charter at least a few times b/f buying a boat of their own. There are many folks who enter boat ownership almost totally blind [clueless] and end up with the "wrong boat." Look at all of the fairly new preowned boats for sale out there. What does that signify? Entering boating and making it work requires preparation in my opinion. [Of course, about the only classes one can easily charter these days are Bavarias, Beneteaus, Catalinas, Dufors, Hunters, & Jeanneaus. All basically the same type of boat. In the "old days" in FL, one could "get a charter ride" on a Cal, Cape Dory, Island Packet, Morgan, Pearson, or even a C&C if out of Canada!]

Kestle · May 9, 2015

I'm with Captnron...join a sail club.

Jeff R.

Bill Roosa · May 9, 2015

There are two trains of thought on owning a boat. do I buy it for the passage (10% of the time spent on the boat) or do I buy it for the anchorage (90% of the time on the boat)
A great passage boat will get you there fast so you don't experience a lot of bad weather that a slower boat might but when you get there a lot of the room that make anchorage nice will not be there. If you buy an anchorage boat it will not be a high performance one since it will be beamy and heavy but your stay will be comfortable
so the real question is can you take an anchorage boat and make it work because of your great Captain skills?

Bill Roosa · May 9, 2015

Course longer means faster in most cases and longer generally has more room than shorter soooooo as long as you can afford and still have the skills to handle. Longer also come with more "stuff" so maintenance goes up as well as the skill to use all the additional controls/features.

Kestle · May 9, 2015

Thought I'd add somethings from 45 years of sailing. You learn for yourself, and also watching others do dumb stuff. That's why restaurants put their decks out so we ca watch sailors crash into things.

Try ASA or another sailing school first. Then race. Getting screamed at does wonders for your learning curve, and it's fun. Race on dingy's and big boats. Practice man overboard drills with a hat or cushion to learn how hard it is. Learn to have a maintenance log for your repairs like a commercial boat does. Learn how to heave-to, and to properly call the Coast Guard for help. Treat it like an airplane, as it does move in three dimensions (left/right, back/forward and most importantly down).

My last point is really, really important. Never take people out by yourself until you have 1-2 years under your belt and ALWAYS wear a life vest ( http://sortieenmer.com/ ). This video is really accurate; you don't want to know why I know. You will be the best on your boat, and if something happens to you, they are screwed.

This may sound dramatic, but there a lot of really good - yet dead - sailors. I've been in one boat that sank in Nantucket Sound, and one badly holed (one foot by one foot hole in hull, broken back from a collision). The later was because a newbie didn't know how to control his boat and crashed into another, which T-boned us so hard it went onto the cabin top of our race boat (only 15 knots of wind btw).

Safety is knowing you don't have to imagine a potentially bad outcome as it starts to happen, and what to do so it doesn't happen.

Jeff

Kestle · May 9, 2015

You should google " died sailing to Catalina Island" and see what comes up, and why. You hear about at least one person a year, and they are not all newbies. Again, I'm not trying to be dramatic, but your question tells me how little you know about sailing, and not about local Santa Ana conditions, Hurricane Gulch, local container ship traffic lanes, how many horn toots means your getting a Harbor Police visit etc., etc.

Please, please do not do Catalina for a bit with another newbie. Especially early in the summer. Like now. I know a great instructor I can recommend who has his CG license. PM me if you'd like his contact info.

Good boats don't rescue bad skippers.

Jeff

Benny17441 · May 9, 2015

I see a lot of beginners shopping around for smaller boats as they figure them will be easier to handle. The truth is that the smaller boats demand more seamanship and are less forgiving than the larger models. Any size boat can get to Catalina with a fair weather window and an experienced crew. It is the larger boat that will provide comfortable accommodations once you get there. Purchase the largest boat your budget may allow for the type of sailing that you envision and do not make the costly mistake of getting a small boat which may quickly be outgrown .

Kings Gambit · May 10, 2015

Benny17441 said:
I see a lot of beginners shopping around for smaller boats as they figure them will be easier to handle. The truth is that the smaller boats demand more seamanship and are less forgiving than the larger models. Any size boat can get to Catalina with a fair weather window and an experienced crew. It is the larger boat that will provide comfortable accommodations once you get there. Purchase the largest boat your budget may allow for the type of sailing that you envision and do not make the costly mistake of getting a small boat which may quickly be outgrown .

The "sail" across the San Pedro Channel to Santa Catalina Island is one that literally hundreds of sailboats make each year. It may be the most traversed sailing passage in the country, as far as I know. Characteristics of the passage differ depending on which harbor one is departing and the season. Yachts departing Marina del Rey have a fair sailing angle on the afternoon SW wind in summer, sailing ca. 170 deg M to Isthmus Cove @ Two Harbors on a wind at 240 deg M. For boats leaving Newport Beach and harbors southeast to Dana Point, it's more of an uphill slog in the same conditions. From Long Beach, as I mentioned above, the wind is too far forward to sail to Isthmus Cove on a summer day's afternoon. Conversely, in winter there is more wind from the SE, so one CAN sail from Long Beach to Two Harbors. The only problem--SE wind in winter is often associated with approaching weather so things can get a bit dicey, and some anchorages are quite lumpy in a SE wind. Although the coves and anchorages of the north side of Catalina Island are well protected from the west and northwest winds accompanying passages of winter cold fronts, they're very exposed to the northeast Santa Ana winds that may come a day or two after the passage of the front. For you folks sailing the southeastern US, it's almost the same story following passage of a cold front there. The next day begins with strong NE winds that blow for a couple of days, etc., except that ours can be much stronger due to the influence of the coastal mountains and valleys.

So, the question as to whether one can, or should, sail to Catalina in a certain boat of a certain size at a certain time from a certain place has the same MANY answers of all such questions: maybe yes, maybe no, or definitely yes, or definitely no, etc. I continue to hold the common view of many sailors here and elsewhere, that if you're going out in the ocean, even a familiar one, you and your boat should be prepared generally for unexpected conditions or situations that could prove threatening. Knowledge, experience, good judgement, and a well maintained, well found yacht, are your best friends! Don't leave home without them!

zeehag · May 10, 2015

depending on weather, anything will sail to catalina and back.
friend and i did it frequently in a coronado 25. sometimees it was easy sometimes we were busy as hell..
i have done it in a 38 chris craft commander in rough weather--it wsnt fun
san pedro/santa barbara channel can get rowdy-- but 26 macgregors have done trip without problems as have other small boats.
as said before by others--depends on comfort level and weather.

there are even sailboard races to and from catalina, so.......

Kestle · May 10, 2015

Respectfully again.

One of my bucket list items is to paddle the channel in my kayak. Would I allow a newbie to do that? **** NO!

Seriously folks, the question showed he needs more knowledge before he buys a boat.

LEARN TO SAIL WELL, THEN BUY THE DAMNED BOAT!!!!!!

Is that how you bought your first car?

C'mon! Can doing something and should doing something are different.

There's a lot of experience on this list. I for one will take him across in typical wind.

Please PM me. We will leave from San Pedro at 2 pm, so he can experience the wind. He can helm. Just him and me. 4-5 hours of bashing to windward.

Kings Gambit · May 11, 2015

Kestle said:
We will leave from San Pedro at 2 pm, so he can experience the wind. He can helm. Just him and me. 4-5 hours of bashing to windward.

Masochist(!)

Bad Obsession · May 11, 2015

There is a lot of good information being thrown around out there. When I was in my mid teens I spent a lot of time racing sailboats. You will learn more stuff about sailing by racing with an experienced crew. Eventually I had worked my way through every position on the boats I raced on. I was a trimmer, spinnaker trimmer, bow man, mast man, and I did some helming. I have forgotten some of the stuff I learned back then when it comes to tweeking sails, but I am a cruiser now and I am not always trying to squeeze that .10 extra knot out of the boat by tweeking a halyard or other sailing control.

Start small. Sailing a dingy is forgiving and gives you valuable skills. You can sometimes rent dingys and sail them for a while to get comfortable on them. I learned on a sunfish and it was a great teacher and a lot of fun. Start in lighter winds and then do more sailing in bigger winds.

When you get to your first cruising boat go to a medium sized boat, 22-27 feet. You may find that you like that sized boat because there are some unique options that you have there. Being able to trailer a boat can be nice and it can save maintenance costs. Remember that what-ever you get the bigger it is the more it will cost. Not just the initial cost, but the cost in maintenance (I would suggest looking at the typical maintenance of a boat before purchase too because this can be expensive).

Once you sail your cruiser for a few times, find a close by place to do an overnight.

By taking small steps it should help you out.