New Trailer

Sumner · Oct 6, 2012

Do you have a trailer? Is it shot? You can convert a single axle to dual axle...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/trailer-mods-index.html

Sum

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Fred · Oct 6, 2012

I'm pretty sure that my trailer was upgraded from stock macgregor by PO. It now has dual axle, electric brakes and load equalizing hitch. It tows very well.

caguy · Oct 6, 2012

I'm not sure that your boat requires a dual axle. I would consider adding electric brakes to the single axle since you may be traveling through snow.

Sumner · Oct 6, 2012

atwhite2 said:
.. I have actually printed your project and showed a local shop... their response was "It would be cheaper to buy a new trailer."..

I agree with their assessment if they tried to do everything I did, but not if you add a second axle to the current trailer and don't add the third bunk and all of the other things we did. They should be able to cut the hangers for the current axle off, position an axle at the very back of the stock frame and then another axle ahead of that in way less than a day. They have to cut 4 spring hangers off and weld 6 on. Then they have to weld on some fender brackets. For a welding shop none of that is a big deal. I'd go get some other bids.

Show them these pictures...

...above is basically the stock frame. Cut the hangers off for the springs.

Above the left arrow points to the end of the original frame. Just start there with the new spring hangers for both axles. In the picture the spring hangers are welded to the sub-frame that I made below the original frame. Ignore that frame, just weld the hangers to the original frame in the same location. I copied someone else that did that to an original axle and it works fine, I just added the sub-frame.

I'll have to disagree with Frank, love ya Frank

, and suggest going with surge disc especially since you want to go to Florida and might be launching and taking out in salt water. They are a couple hundred more, but well worth it and I also love how they stop vs. the other trailer I have that has electrics on it.

If you are up to it you could run the brake lines and bleed them or have the welding shop do it. Not a big thing. They would also have to add the surge controller to the tongue. These guys should be quick at that type of thing if they work on or build trailers at all.

Not sure what your budget is but the other option is take the boat and present trailer to Florida, very carefully and buy a trailer there. MrBill do you still have the name of the place where you got your trailer. I don't anymore, but did talk to them a couple years ago and the guy quoted me about $3000 for a new aluminum trailer with brakes that was suppose to be like yours (nice trailer). If I wouldn't of already done so many mods to our trailer I might of gone that route.

I do think that you are on the right track trying to go to a second axle and having brakes for as much as you want to tow. We went to Canada and back with the single axle and no brakes and there is a world of difference now. I really don't mind now towing the trailer anywhere in any traffic and you will be in traffic going and coming to Florida.

Good luck and let me know if I can help some more and I might still have pictures from a couple other trailers that were modified and I'm trying to think who on here bought a trailer and added the bunks with moveable pretty easy to install bunk supports.

Personally I would not go with rollers for our water ballast boats. Roger designed the trailer bunks I believe to work with the hull and the water ballast chamber in it so as to not stress the hull. Notice how the earlier Mac/Ventures had bunks running lengthwise and then the water-ballast boats have the bunks across the trailer. I think there is a reason and would stick with it,

Sum

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anchorclanker · Oct 7, 2012

Single or tandem axle. Singles back easier and turn easier, tandems dont like to turn, it skids the tires sideways. If you get a flat with a single, you know it right away. If you get a flat with a tandem, especially at night, you could destroy the wheel or worse before you know it.

The biggest reason for a tandem is to carry more weight and put more of that weight over the axles and off the tongue. I would strongly consider a tandem if weight climbs over 3500 pounds. Below that weight, and above 2000 pounds, a 3500 or 4000 pound axle, centered under the trailer to give correct balance/tongue weight, with 6 or 8 hole wheels and 8 or 10 ply tires should be more than sufficient. Less tires to buy and maintain as well as less brakes and bearings to fuss with.

Brakes should be on everything over 1500 pounds GW, regardless of any states laws.

If youve been towing it on a single axle and it follows okay, perhaps a simple upgrade would suffice? If its carrying the load okay you can even keep the current springs. Just slide a heavier axle under it fitted with brakes and just bolt everything back up.

walt · Oct 7, 2012

Another data point on a single axle on a Mac 26 Classic

I have a 26S with the stock trailer probably coming in at slightly under 3000 pounds and the only modification I have done to it is change the tires to 15 inch with a higher load rating. I fixed the stock surge brake setup. I always tow with the outboard on the transom but try to keep any heavy stuff in the back of the truck. If you get the boat forward on the trailer where it’s supposed to sit, you will also generally have adequate tongue weight and this helps significantly in towing. Ive towed this way with a Dogde Dakota 4x4 and thought it tows fine.

I have put many thousands of miles on this setup, no complaints. Before I put the 15 inch tires on, I did one trip where I had taken the wheels off before the trip (for bearing maintenance) and apparently didn’t tighten the lug nuts enough as they came loose and the tire actually came off while I was driving. The trailer stayed in control as I watched the tire pass me. Note that you can have the same situation with either single or dual axle trailer, best advice here is check the lug nuts often especially if you have recently removed a tire.

Now the boat does mostly 1 to 6 day trips with little driving. The single axle trailer is one of the things I like about this boat now simply because I have one half the tire/bearing hassle. And, if you start making heavy (weight wise) mods to the setup (like major mods to the trailer), you’re getting the weight of everything up to where you should really consider brakes on both axles. The mods begin to snowball...

walt · Oct 7, 2012

Regarding the snow, I’m not sure what is best but have heard of one accident where a heavy sailboat with a dual axle trailer and surge brakes on only axle had the trailer get out of control and slide sideways on the Fwy. I’ve heard of another similar accident with a different sailboat but don’t know the details on the number of axles or brake situation. This particular boat would have come stock with a single axle trailer and surge brakes.

I don’t know what the answer is for snow and ice but would not assume that a dual axle trailer makes it safer. My opinion (after towing a fair amount on snow and ice with a Mac classic single axle) is that I like having the maximum amount of braking possible especially for the poor road conditions and that is having brakes on all axles.

Bob McL · Oct 7, 2012

If you get a flat with a tandem, especially at night, you could destroy the wheel or worse before you know it.

That is true, but when my wheel bolts came loose and destroyed the wheel, I was able to take it off and limp home on three wheels. No axle drag either.

walt · Oct 7, 2012

Bob, that is a good point. When I had my wheel come off the single axle trailer, it also broke off most of the studs and I had no choice but to fix things right then and there. It was not really much of a safety issue but it was a BIG convienience issue. I always check lug nuts now. However, when it comes time to replace the tires (Ive heard after six years regardless of use), then it will seem worth it to only have to replace two ($$$$)... I think my spare tire would cover a normal flat or even blowout.

Sumner · Oct 7, 2012

Bob McL said:
That is true, but when my wheel bolts came loose and destroyed the wheel, I was able to take it off and limp home on three wheels. No axle drag either.

I agree, there is more safety with 2 axles than one. I've been a number of places where if I had a flat with one axle I sure wouldn't of wanted to had to of pulled over right there. In fact some places you just can't pull over. Chances are that the tire might be ruined anyway and I'd like the option of going down the road a ways to a safe place to get off. Maintenance of wheel bearings is not that bad and with bearing buddies should not be a constant chore. Lube them and don't over-tighten them and check for heat every once in a while. If they are lubed and tightened properly they should go thousands and thousands of miles.

I can't remember anyone that has gone to 2 axles wanting to go back to one. I think a fairly common weight thrown around for an empty Mac S or D and a trailer is about 2800 lbs.. That is an empty boat with no outboard. I'll bet that most boats going to a lake with an outboard on the back and the other things we accumulate is going to be 3100 to 3200 lbs.. Getting up in that range I'll take the second axle and good working brakes.

I don't know how heavily the prior owner had loaded the boat/trailer, but our axle was bent when we got the boat/trailer. It was wearing the tires out on the insides and we had to get new ones during the trip to Canada. Now with 2 axles and 5000 miles I see no noticeable tire wear. The trailer is much more stable getting passed by semi's and in 50+ mph side winds in Texas and/or if you have to do some evasive driving.

Back to adding a second axle for those that are interested in that option.

Above is a picture of Todd Patterson's (no relation) showing how he added a second axle to the stock frame.

Here it is...

...on the road going to Lake Powell and here are a couple more pictures and why he added the second axle and what he thinks of it.....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Endeavour-Misc/misc-pics-2.html

I received these pictures a couple years ago before I modified our trailer and basically ended up with our axles in the same place, but added a sub-frame under the stock frame and also added the third bunk as we really load our boat down.

I have not been in touch with Todd since and I'm not sure if he still has the Mac or frequents this board or not. In respect for him please look at his pictures and read his dialog and consider that he is not here to deal with comments either positive or negative. I appreciate that he responded to me at the time and have had excellent luck with the axles where he placed them. This would not be a hard mod for a welding shop at all.

One small problem is that Roger made the axle width kind of odd ball and I never found a stock width axle (there are a couple common widths) that was the same. I ended up making our second axle....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-trailer/trailer-mods-10.html

...to exactly the same width as the stock one. There are commonly available 3500 lb. axles that are just an inch or two wider and they would only space the wheels/tires out about 1/2 to 1 inch wider than the stock axle and that isn't a big deal. Also a number of axle manufactures will make-up an axle to any width you want for not much more than their stock ones,

Sum

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Fred · Oct 7, 2012

I am planning to retrieve my trailer from summer storage in a week or two. I will take some pictures of the axle mounting and bunk details at that time.

Kestle · Oct 7, 2012

I have a non-Mac trailer that a yard put together for me when the original rusted out (and stranded me suddenly).

Our car doesn't tow a lot of weight, so am going to go aluminum on the next one. Anyone have suggestions, besides two axels, what to consider? I planning on scrapping this one next year.

Jeff

anchorclanker · Oct 7, 2012

The point of having a second axle is not to defer maintenance by neglecting wheel bearings or failing to check lug nuts regularly. I'm sure thats not what was meant, but there is no reason to drag extra wheels down the road when they are not really needed. A flat doesnt always require an immediate stop, even loosing a trailer wheel, I will drag it down the road to a place its safe if needed.

Wheel bearings get too hot to touch when they start to fail. Stops every 50 miles to make a walk around, checking tires (I touch them to see if they are hot) for damage, touching the bearing cap to see if its not overheating, shaking the wheel in and out to check looseness, etc.. A cheap IR heat gun is another useful tool.

Sumner · Oct 7, 2012

anchorclanker said:
The point of having a second axle is not to defer maintenance by neglecting wheel bearings or failing to check lug nuts regularly. ........ Stops every 50 miles to make a walk around, checking tires (I touch them to see if they are hot) for damage, touching the bearing cap to see if its not overheating, shaking the wheel in and out to check looseness, etc.. A cheap IR heat gun is another useful tool.

I went to a second axle as it is the safe thing....

...to do with a boat our size, especially for the way we load it down. If we aren't over 3500 lbs. we are very close to it. The tracking with the second axle is much, much better. On the wheel bearings I check ours when we get gas or eat, but not every 50 minutes and shouldn't have to check it as often as I do, but it doesn't hurt. How often do you check the wheel bearings on your car?

I'll bet that 90% or more of wheel bearing failures on trailers is people meaning good and greasing the bearings and then putting them on too tight. I once did that on a front wheel bearing on a car. Our ....

...teardrop isn't real light at about 1800 lbs. loaded and has a 2000 lb. axle and springs. I've towed it over 50,000 miles from one side of the country to the other and would go whole trips with never touching them. Never a problem with them. I have no problem though with you pulling over every 50 miles if you want,

Sum

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Fred · Oct 7, 2012

I have seen Macgregors who's hull's were deformed by bunks on trailers. I would be skeptical about rollers which would seem to introduce even more local force. Macgregors tend to have fairly thin skin.

tkanzler · Oct 7, 2012

The previous owners upgraded the stock 26X trailer with a second axle. They did it to make it tow straighter (more stable) on the highway, towed by their minivan. Outfitted lightly but typical for how I use the boat, the combo is also a bit over it's gross weight rating of 3500 lb (per the nameplate), but I doubt there are many 26X's on OEM trailers out there even with a single axle that are under the GVWR.

One thing I did after I got it is to soften the springs. The original axle is 3500 lb (based on the bearings), but the springs were MUCH heavier at 0.430" thickness (1-3/4" wide, which is standard), times 4 leaves, and 26" centers. The spring rate is very high (I calculated it, but don't recall the actual value). With the second 3500 lb axle, with 1750 lb (each) springs (4 leaves at 0.323" thickness, 25-1/4" centers), it had 8000 lb or more of suspension capability.

I took two leaves out of the original (now has 2 leaves), and one out of the new one (now has 3 leaves), but shortened the middle one to evenly space the steps. The boat rides much softer now, as determined from both the feel of bumps through the steering wheel and seat, and from the sound of things banging over bumps.

If you go with a 2-axle trailer, try to go with a softer suspension than what's likely to be on there, or you'll end up with a very stiff, hard riding trailer (7000 lb worth of suspension for a 3000 or so boat/trailer combo). This is even more important, I would think, with independent suspension (torsion bar), as there is no equalization between the two axles, and each axle will put a shock load into the boat/trailer proportionate to it's (high) spring rate, times two for two axles, when going over large bumps.

anchorclanker · Oct 7, 2012

Sumner said:
I've towed it over 50,000 miles from one side of the country to the other and would go whole trips with never touching them. Never a problem with them. I have no problem though with you pulling over every 50 miles if you want,

Well, the industry says trailer lugs should to be checked every 500 miles. I try to check them at least every 1000, and much sooner after starting out. Not checking them at all is rather foolish, and suggesting such is poor advice. I lost a wheel once when I was young. I didnt know about checking them so often and hadnt been doing it. Over the years I have found them loose on many occasions, and not just on trailers either.

The point is that he does not need a second axle simply because someone thinks its so many times safer, or so he can neglect things more and still not have big problems. The guy admitted he doesnt have the tools and knowledge and isnt getting much help from local shops. A simple upgrade he can accomplish with normal hand tools would be far better than what he has now. Four nuts and four U bolts will be much simpler than all kinds of welding and fabricating. Even swapping in heavy springs he could do quite easily, or have done.

Boats are often sold with what many call "ramp" or "storage" trailers. They have too light duty of springs and axles to really carry the boat well for any distance, and have no brakes and often no mounting plate on the axle to mount brakes. The only way to add brakes to these is replace the axle. I have seen boats well over 7000 pounds on trailers without brakes riding on some of these light weight axles.

5 hole wheels use a 1 ton axle (some rated to 2500 pounds), 6 hole wheels run a 3500 pound axle, and 8 hole wheels run 4000 - 4500 pound axles. A 3000 pound boat should have a trailer with at least a 3500 pound axle, which would run 6 hole hubs. Carrying that boat on a 2000 pound axle, which 5 lug wheels clearly specify, it would sway all over on those light springs and tires.

The 5, 6, and 8 hole hubs generally each have the next size larger bearings and so are not generally interchangeable. You cannot put 8 hole hubs on a 5 hole axle for example. Simply by noting the number of lugs one can determine a trailers basic weight capacity. If you started out with a light 5 lug wheel under your boat, and added a second 5 lug axle, it would be somewhat safer. But a single 6 or 8 holer could carry it just as well or better and carry much larger brakes.

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