New Self Tailing Winches

[LeeandRick]

The arthritis is getting bad enough we've decided to put self tailing primary winches on the old (46 years) boat. We chose Lewmar EVO 30ST. Reading through the manual (page 21 of Lewmar winch service manual B2304 issue 6) I came across a term I'm not familiar with, "yet still allows the valued ability to tail through giving even faster sail control". Any thoughts?

 

[jssailem]

When using the winch you can pull the sheets and the line will run around the winch and off even though the line is in the jaws of the self tailer (tail through).

You can also crank the winch and the line will run through the winch in the same manner.

Because you have run the line through the winch ST jaws the line runs Kim one direction.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Johns description is excellent. To put is in application terms, you can wrap the line around the winch and lock it into the jaws in preparation for the tack. During the tack you pull the tail and it allows you to hand trim as far as possible without the need to leave the line out of the self-tailer with just a small increase in friction.
Think of it as similar to how a halyard clutch works. You can hand pull in one direction but it will not give back anything you take in.

 

[thinwater]

This is just my opinion... but....

You do NOT use the selftailer jaws during a tack, only for trimming coming out of the tack. Additionally, I like to have a cam cleat down stream of every winch for faster release (optional). In fact, this is why many people are not overly fond of selftailing winches, at least for racing, because they generally slow tacks.

• Before tacking you reduce the number of turns on the working winch so that it can be released more quickly. This is doubly important on a selftailer, since throwing off extra turns is more awkward (they try to snag on the stripping arm). If holding the tail in your hand, you will need a firm grip in a breeze.
• You normally place only 1-2 turns on the new working winch to start. This allows for faster hauling until the slack is out. Only when the sail has started to fill on the new tack do you add turns and place the tail in the jaws. You could place it in the jaws early, with the full count of turns, but there is a greater chance of overrides, there will be a lot more friction, and you will have to grind farther. In other words, it will take longer and be more work. Better to pull in the slack with minimal turns, then throw on 1-2 more turns and only then use the selftailer.
• A trick to quickly release the tail from old working winch is to feed the tail around the reverse side of the winch. A light tug from across the cockpit will pull the tail from the jaws and allow release.

Finally, be careful of using the selftailer jaws to reduce the number of turns you use on the winch. When the wind increases, the jaws will slip. The number of turns should be the same as with non-selftailing winches.

So yeah, you can pull the line through the selftailer, but you shouldn't and very seldom will.

 

[LeeandRick]

Thanks guys, I thought this was the meaning. My old self tailing winches did not work this way. You pulled the tail and it locked in within half turn and that's all you got. Thanks again.

 

[Tom J]

When using the winch you can pull the sheets and the line will run around the winch and off even though the line is in the jaws of the self tailer (tail through).

You can also crank the winch and the line will run through the winch in the same manner.

Because you have run the line through the winch ST jaws the line runs Kim one direction.

When I first got my C310, I did not realize this about my self tailers. I used to crank in the slack, until a friend was manning the winches one day, and grabbed the tail and started hauling. I thought, "Cool!".

 

[Sailfanatic]

....During the tack you pull the tail and it allows you to hand trim as far as possible without the need to leave the line out of the self-tailer with just a small increase in friction.
...

While the ST allows this tailing through, I 've never made use of this ability. Is the idea to set the lazy sheet on the winch with just two turns, then through the ST? Then after the sheet is trimmed fully, remove it from the ST, add several turns and then back into the ST? If you are trimming fast with more than two turns you are likely to override...

 

[capta]

This is just my opinion... but....

You do NOT use the selftailer jaws during a tack, only for trimming coming out of the tack. Additionally, I like to have a cam cleat down stream of every winch for faster release (optional). In fact, this is why many people are not overly fond of selftailing winches, at least for racing, because they generally slow tacks.

• Before tacking you reduce the number of turns on the working winch so that it can be released more quickly. This is doubly important on a selftailer, since throwing off extra turns is more awkward (they try to snag on the stripping arm). If holding the tail in your hand, you will need a firm grip in a breeze.
• You normally place only 1-2 turns on the new working winch to start. This allows for faster hauling until the slack is out. Only when the sail has started to fill on the new tack do you add turns and place the tail in the jaws. You could place it in the jaws early, with the full count of turns, but there is a greater chance of overrides, there will be a lot more friction, and you will have to grind farther. In other words, it will take longer and be more work. Better to pull in the slack with minimal turns, then throw on 1-2 more turns and only then use the selftailer.
• A trick to quickly release the tail from old working winch is to feed the tail around the reverse side of the winch. A light tug from across the cockpit will pull the tail from the jaws and allow release.

Finally, be careful of using the selftailer jaws to reduce the number of turns you use on the winch. When the wind increases, the jaws will slip. The number of turns should be the same as with non-selftailing winches.

So yeah, you can pull the line through the selftailer, but you shouldn't and very seldom will.

We have electric winches and they function as mentioned. We just pull in the 3/4" sheet until it's too much pressure, then push the button. It makes no sense to ever take it out of the self tailer unless you are easing the sheet. We don't even cleat the lines off, finding the self tailing jaws to be sufficient.

 

[capta]

The arthritis is getting bad enough we've decided to put self tailing primary winches on the old (46 years) boat. We chose Lewmar EVO 30ST. Reading through the manual (page 21 of Lewmar winch service manual B2304 issue 6) I came across a term I'm not familiar with, "yet still allows the valued ability to tail through giving even faster sail control". Any thoughts?

I would like to suggest that you spend the extra money and get two speed winches. Your arthritis will thank you.

 

[thinwater]

Much of this relates to how fast the boat tacks. Some boats can hand-haul the sheets in before they load up, virtually eliminating cranking. In fact, on a 30-foot boat, if you are cranking more than a few turns, your timing is probably off. My last boat was a 34' cat, and I seldom cranked more than a few turns. It's about timing. You want the jib in just as it fills. Cranking should only be tuning.

 

[LeeandRick]

I would like to suggest that you spend the extra money and get two speed winches. Your arthritis will thank you.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm with you already. The new winches are 2 speed with a lower gear ratio (2:1 and 4.2:1) vs the old 2 speed (1:1 and 2:1). The power ratio is almost doubled in the final gear, (size 16 vs 30) between the two, which my wife is going to love. She might even let me steer occasionally, now.

 

[Hayden Watson]

While the ST allows this tailing through, I 've never made use of this ability. Is the idea to set the lazy sheet on the winch with just two turns, then through the ST? Then after the sheet is trimmed fully, remove it from the ST, add several turns and then back into the ST? If you are trimming fast with more than two turns you are likely to override...

I put the full required wraps on mine. For a light breeze, three turns are sufficient but when the wind is up I need four. The only problem that you can get into is with over-wraps which on my boat only occur with the line is hand trimmed with too much gusto. I use a full two handed alternating pull so that the line comes in a a steady rate not jerk real fast and then grab for another pull. If you do that, the inertia of the winch will spin the line loose and it will over-ride.
Thin-water's comments about not using the ST for tacks is mostly true for racing in light displacement boats that tack really fast. On a heavier boat, if you tack too fast you park the boat and it takes a long time to get back up to speed. On my C30 I get the best resulted when in a bit of breeze, I take about 4-6 seconds to make the 90º turn, That is pretty slow and leaves plenty of time for the trimmer to get the line across and tight before the sail fills. This is with a 135% and even when we have the foredeck run the clew across.

 

[Joe]

Just to second the comments by Thinwater and Capta, using the ST jaws when tacking or gybing is SLOW.... and not necessary. I only use the self tailing feature to make adjustments. I left the cam cleats in place that I used with the old standard Barlows and I think it was a good decision. When I tack I can pull in the sail by hand and snap it down it the cleat.... once the boat's on course I can reset the sheet and trim it with the ST feature. One hand on the tiller the other on the winch. The idea of "tailing through" the winch seems like a lot of wear and tear on the sheets..... but.... I'm willing to give it a try next time out...just to see for myself.
To me, the biggest advantage of the self tailing winch is with halyards. The palm handled winch handle allows me to ratchet up the sail with both hands.... rather than doing full circles... which is HARD on the arthritic shoulder. I never hoist with the clutch engaged.... it's just too rough on the rope's cover.

 

[FastOlson]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm with you already. The new winches are 2 speed with a lower gear ratio (2:1 and 4.2:1) vs the old 2 speed (1:1 and 2:1). The power ratio is almost doubled in the final gear, (size 16 vs 30) between the two, which my wife is going to love. She might even let me steer occasionally, now.

Go for it! Our primaries are Lewmar 46ST, and we would never want any less "help"!
Remember, seldom has anyone ever returned from a breezy day of sailing and complained that the large winches on the boat made the sailing Too Easy!

 

[thinwater]

The OP's boat is a 26' trailer boat. That was the focus of my comments.

BTW, my last boat was a cruising cat, and it was NOT fast through tacks... but the same method was still best, just with slower timing.

And Joe is right about halyards. If you can't just jump them, self tailing is nice. If you do hoist through a clutch, it should be engaged ONLY enough to prevent backsliding, which generally means with the handle at least half open, depending on rope size.

 

[Tally Ho]

I have ST winches on my O’Day 322, and before I tack, even when I am single-handed, I take the sheet out of the jaws and hold the line as I tack...then grab the sheet on the opposite side with a few wraps around the drum, and pull the sheet tight. Then put the line in the jaws, and fine tune the genny.

Doesn’t seem slow to me...

Greg

 

[LeeandRick]

The OP's boat is a 26' trailer boat. That was the focus of my comments.

BTW, my last boat was a cruising cat, and it was NOT fast through tacks... but the same method was still best, just with slower timing.

Thanks @thinwater . We tack just as you described in your first post. I'm guessing the only time we might use the tail through technic would be if reaching and had to come up hard to miss an obstacle.

We use the tail reverse direction on the winch when only two of us are onboard in higher winds. If guest are aboard we lay the tail around the winch in the same direction as winch turns one turn to keep someone from pulling it out of the gripper when they sit on it.

Thanks again.

 

[jssailem]

Lee
We know it is not always gale force winds out there in the Georgia Strait.

I use the "tail through" function when the winds are lighter, I am tacking and I know I will want to crank the winch a bit too do final trim. Or if I have a back wind and it is just easier to grab the tail and trim the sail than to reach for a button or the winch handle then bear off to fill the sail.

No hard and fast rules to use or ignore the features of the hardware.
More of letting the spirit move me and the boat.

 

[capta]

Cranking should only be tuning.

I don't think this is possible on many, if not most boats, especially if you want to keep as much way on as possible.
Then there are the boats with staysail stays that hamper swift tacking. One surely doesn't want that sail to fill on the wrong side of that stay so, patience is required. That means you've a lot of sheet needs to be pulled in after the wind has passed the bow.
One thing many new sailors do when they tack is to put the helm hard over at the beginning of the maneuver. Well, that's just like throwing out a barn door behind the boat and will quickly bring her to a near stop.
If you've been doing that, try throwing the helm over only as far as necessary to get the bow to begin to swing through the wind. It should make tacking significantly easier. Multihull sailors learn this PDQ, or they spend a lot of time in irons.

 

[thinwater]

I don't think this is possible on many, if not most boats, especially if you want to keep as much way on as possible.
Then there are the boats with staysail stays that hamper swift tacking. One surely doesn't want that sail to fill on the wrong side of that stay so, patience is required. That means you've a lot of sheet needs to be pulled in after the wind has passed the bow.
One thing many new sailors do when they tack is to put the helm hard over at the beginning of the maneuver. Well, that's just like throwing out a barn door behind the boat and will quickly bring her to a near stop.
If you've been doing that, try throwing the helm over only as far as necessary to get the bow to begin to swing through the wind. It should make tacking significantly easier. Multihull sailors learn this PDQ, or they spend a lot of time in irons.

The OPs boat is 26 feet. That is the focus.

Yes, an inner stay is a problem. I've had one on every boat I've owned when I set a reacher up wind, an it is a problem. Your boat has one, is twice the length of the OPs, 5 times the headsail area, and over 10 times the sheet load. It is simply not a useful comparison in this context.

The best turn-in speed is certainly boat and conditions dependent. It is also common to increase the helm slightly as the boat slows and the turn proceeds. It is also important to match the turning speed to the speed the crew can haul the jib across. With F-24, for example, which can turn very quickly at speed, the determining factor in turn rate is often hauling sheets. No use turning the boat faster than they can get the jib in, it only results in flogging, more grinding, and a slower over all tack.

I have sailed multihulls for 4 decades, including a 34' PDQ cruising cat, and the best tacking methods was to turn relatively quickly, starting somewhat slow but quickening as the boat slowed, and getting the jib in JUST as it could fill on the new tack (about 25 degrees AW). At that instant there is still little load. The wind then grabs the sail, pulls the bow through the wind, and starts the boat accelerating before the turn is even fully complete. In fact, on a boat that can very easily go into irons, like my PDQ, it is the very best way. Backing the jib, on the other hand, only slows the boat, making it more likely you will find yourself dead in the water and pulled into irons than simply getting the jib in at the proper moment. Watch beach cats race and see if anyone (other than beginners) ever backs the jib. They don't.

And it does not require crew on boats up to ~ high 30s. The turn is handled by the AP, you realease the jib when it breaks and pull it across at the rate the turn allows. When you get it right, when the jib pops full the first moment it can and the boat is pulled around and accelerates, it's wonderful.