New sail advice needed

[jdrutten]

Winter is finally releasing its icy grip on the upper midwest (although we're forecast for a couple inches of snow tonight), and I am finally getting around to trying to order a new mainsail for my in-mast furler. I know I should've ordered it last fall, but here I am. I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out all my options, and would appreciate some opinions.

I'm certainly interested in getting good sail shape and performance but acknowledge that as a weekend cruiser and occasional beer can racer, I probably don't need to look too far past mid-tier dacrons. I received several online quotes for crosscut "Challenge 7.45 oz" and 7.7oz Challenge Marblehead, as well as radial "warp" cloth and CDX Pro "CDX5". I also got a quote from a local sailmaker for a crosscut Contender Supercruise 8.4.

I'm looking mostly at the crosscut options. But this is where I get stuck. I have no feel for how to compare these sailcloths, and my local loft comes at about a 30% premium over the other options. The personal service of the local loft is certainly worth something, but I can't shake the feeling that I'd be paying more money for what may be a lower quality cloth. But is it? Additionally, the CDX5 comes out at about the same price as the local loft. I should add that the local loft has promised a short turnaround, which would be great. But I don't actually know how the cloths truly compare with each other. Comparing sailcloth feels like comparing mattresses. I'll be sleeping on this mattress for the next 10 years (hopefully longer), so I want it to be right!

I think if the supercruise was comparable with the marblehead, I'd be happy to go local. Really I just want something that will furl easily and will reasonably hold its shape for 10 years. I feel like I'm not seeing the whole picture here, so I'd really appreciate your help!

 

[dlochner]

The most important consideration in a new sail is the shape and construction. Cloth is down the list a bit.

Top of the line sailcloth on a poorly designed sail is worse than a well designed sail with mediocre cloth.

Like everything on a sailboat, there are tradeoffs. You can get a really bomb proof sail that will last a long time, but you may do so at the price of performance.

Set your priorities first, fast on the race course? longevity? price? performance in what kind of sailing conditions? easy of handling? sail weight? Every boat and skipper have different goals.

When I bought new sails a few years ago, I had several considerations. First, I was reducing the size of the Genoa from 150 to 135, to compensate for the reduced size I opted for a more performance oriented design and sailcloth. Since we were prepping for ocean sailing where conditions would be more challenging than our home waters we opted for a heavier sailcloth. The triradial design in a heavier cloth resulted in a sail that performed well in the conditions we anticipated, was easier to trim than the 150, and reduced the need to reef. The better design allowed for comparable sailing speed to our old crosscut 150. The downside, the sail is heavier than the old sail and it cost more than a crosscut sail.

Your decisions will be different than mine, I only list this to illustrate the kind of considerations involved in the decisions. Bottom line, if you are uncertain go with the loft that is willing to work with you to build a sail that meets your needs. The first step is to clearly define your needs.

Good luck.

 

[Tally Ho]

I needed a new head sail over the winter. I got quotes from several on-line sources, and got a quote from North Sails in Chicago. I had ordered a new main sail from North 2 years ago, and being pretty new at ordering sails, I wanted to talk to the loft, and get some local knowledge and hand-holding.

North came out and measured my main sail, made some recommendations based on my desire for full battens, etc. I like the sail, but the very top of the sail, the headboard in particular, would catch on the topping lift. After 2 seasons of fighting this issue, I took the sail in to the loft, explained the problem, and asked them to fix it.

I just picked it up this week, no charge, and modified as I requested…

While Precision Sail was a close contender, I chose to go with North because of the personalized service. If they had not fixed my main sail, I would have ordered from Precision. But again, they stepped up. And I appreciate the local knowledge and support

My new 135 jib is 6.8 oz Nordac cloth from north sail.

My main is 6.4 oz Nordac

I did negotiate a bit with North Sail and got them to drop their price a bit so the cost was just a little higher than a mail order shop.

Also, almost all sails are made overseas (even North Sail).

Greg

 

[CarlN]

Marblehead is the best conventional woven Dacron (Some of the new “crimpless“ might be better but much more expensive than Marblehead). Supercruise is a.big step down.

I would get a quote from Macksails. They are one of the few sailmakers who won’t laugh if you say you want a sail that will last 10 years. They made me sails from Marblehead cloth. Shape is still great after 7 years.

Sail Cloth

Discussion About Sailcloth As outlined earlier, years ago there were limited sailcloth options for sailmakers using Dacron for cruising and racing sails. That was then. The “this is now,&#822…

macksails.com

 

[NYSail]

Just had a new sail made by Neil Pryde woth radial warp cloth……… in mast still in living room waiting to hoist. Local guy came and did all measurements. Sail made overseas. Fabric shortages due to supply chain issues.

good luck

 

[jssailem]

I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out all my options, and would appreciate some opinions.

Wish List

1. good sail shape
2. performance
3. weekend cruiser
4. occasional beer can racer
5. Last 10 YEARS - SAIL SHAPE
6. Local Service
7. Budget

I can understand the challenge. At some point you need to filter out the options that are less important and focus on the 3-4 items of most important NOW. Why? Because some of the criteria (wish list) are conflicting. Some of the wish list are not dependent on what you purchase but how you care for the sails and how you sail.

As an example, consider the Weekend Cruiser and Beer Can Racer.
Weekend Cruiser:
Loads up his boat with all the conveniences and goodies that will make the weekend a wonderful experience. Unlimited beverages, food, clothing options, more food, power equipment like generator to provide energy for AC, that Keurig coffee maker, dinghy, paddle boards etc. Easily an extra 1K-2K lbs of stuff. Then sailing slowly in 5-8 knots of breeze with heavy weight sails designed to last a lifetime. Of course the sails were put up at seasons beginning, just after splash, sitting out in the weather Sun Wind and Rain. But all is great because we got to our special spot on the Lake and had a wonderful time. Lets do it again in 2 weeks.

Beer Can racer:
Can picture his name on the season end trophy. The boat is stripped of every ounce of superfluous weight. You know that wooden door to the head, GONE. That refrigerator/freezer/stove/AC unit/fuel and water tanks all of it GONE. You may need a head and storage tank on a cruising boat, but we are racers - GONE.
Sails? Of course. But they are light weight to easily fill in the lightest of breezes. We carefully take them off the boat, wash/dry and fold them after each race. We store them in a special temp/moisture controlled locker. The sails cost a bundle but they are worth it for that extra half a knot speed giving us a 20 second advantage over the rest of the racers. We will need to be thinking about swapping them out in a couple of years as the sail technology changes. We are a lean mean racing machine.

Based on my opinion... I would be looking for a well designed sail from a reputable manufacture. Choosing a price inside my budget. Regarding sail cloth Dacron rather than mylar or laminate will save you some money. Sailing on the inland lakes, not the open ocean 24/7, I would look for the lighter weight material. The heavy weight material is designed for the boat that is making open water passage with the sails up 24/7.

How long you keep sails will be depend on how you take care of them and store them when not in use.

I found North Sail the best option for me. Fair price. Great sail knowledge. Boat was measured for the sails. The loft came to the boat and put the sails up discussing trim and fit. The loft took the sails back after a season and tweaked a couple of things that only showed up after the sails had been sailing. I expect to get 5-7 good years out of the sails. I take care of them not leaving them up on the boat when I am not going to go sailing within a 5 day period. When under power, the sails have covers to reduce the damage by UV and weather. In salt marine air, rinsing your sails will help extend their life.

Good Luck. It is tough looking for unicorns.

 

[jon hansen]

well said john. what john mentioned that i think is a must do, they bring the sail to the boat, install it, show me that is shapes correctly, then i write the check.

 

[dLj]

I can understand the challenge. At some point you need to filter out the options that are less important and focus on the 3-4 items of most important NOW. Why? Because some of the criteria (wish list) are conflicting. Some of the wish list are not dependent on what you purchase but how you care for the sails and how you sail.

As an example, consider the Weekend Cruiser and Beer Can Racer.
Weekend Cruiser:
Loads up his boat with all the conveniences and goodies that will make the weekend a wonderful experience. Unlimited beverages, food, clothing options, more food, power equipment like generator to provide energy for AC, that Keurig coffee maker, dinghy, paddle boards etc. Easily an extra 1K-2K lbs of stuff. Then sailing slowly in 5-8 knots of breeze with heavy weight sails designed to last a lifetime. Of course the sails were put up at seasons beginning, just after splash, sitting out in the weather Sun Wind and Rain. But all is great because we got to our special spot on the Lake and had a wonderful time. Lets do it again in 2 weeks.

Beer Can racer:
Can picture his name on the season end trophy. The boat is stripped of every ounce of superfluous weight. You know that wooden door to the head, GONE. That refrigerator/freezer/stove/AC unit/fuel and water tanks all of it GONE. You may need a head and storage tank on a cruising boat, but we are racers - GONE.
Sails? Of course. But they are light weight to easily fill in the lightest of breezes. We carefully take them off the boat, wash/dry and fold them after each race. We store them in a special temp/moisture controlled locker. The sails cost a bundle but they are worth it for that extra half a knot speed giving us a 20 second advantage over the rest of the racers. We will need to be thinking about swapping them out in a couple of years as the sail technology changes. We are a lean mean racing machine.

Based on my opinion... I would be looking for a well designed sail from a reputable manufacture. Choosing a price inside my budget. Regarding sail cloth Dacron rather than mylar or laminate will save you some money. Sailing on the inland lakes, not the open ocean 24/7, I would look for the lighter weight material. The heavy weight material is designed for the boat that is making open water passage with the sails up 24/7.

How long you keep sails will be depend on how you take care of them and store them when not in use.

I found North Sail the best option for me. Fair price. Great sail knowledge. Boat was measured for the sails. The loft came to the boat and put the sails up discussing trim and fit. The loft took the sails back after a season and tweaked a couple of things that only showed up after the sails had been sailing. I expect to get 5-7 good years out of the sails. I take care of them not leaving them up on the boat when I am not going to go sailing within a 5 day period. When under power, the sails have covers to reduce the damage by UV and weather. In salt marine air, rinsing your sails will help extend their life.

Good Luck. It is tough looking for unicorns.

I never realized beer can racers were so competitive...

Very nice explanation...

dj

 

[FastOlson]

Try not to get side tracked by anyone's references to "racing" vs "cruising".... it's all about sailing performance. If and when you show up on the starting line as a registered participant you will then be a real "racer"--- whether you sail an El Toro or a Westsail......

Good shape IS also important, no matter how you use your boat.

Before getting too far into the spec's, be sure that your sail maker really knows about your particular year and mast make for a furling mainsail. The sailmakers that I have known will ask about this. In general, a "thinner" sail with "thinner" vertical battens will roll up easier and jam less than one that is a tad too thick. Differences in cloth type and weight will influence this. Sometimes significantly.

Furling can be nice, but it has to be reliable. I have crewed on boats where a winch was required to furl a reluctant mainsail into a spar. Kind of Concerning, but then it was not my boat.

 

[jdrutten]

Amazing responses! Very helpful. Thanks all!!!

I'm hearing that I need to be sure I know my needs and my top options and focus on those. I'm also hearing that sail design is important and I will need a loft that will work with me.

I've been in touch with Mack who initially turned me on to the Marblehead option, along with Precision and a couple others. Everyone seems willing to talk, in fact Precision keeps emailing to set up another consultation. That Nordac looks very interesting, but sheesh, at this point I'm not sure I need more (and maybe more expensive?) options.

There aren't many full service sail lofts in these parts, and my local guy has already committed to come out to install and verify proper shape. At his request, I already dropped my old sails off for measurement, but I'm assuming he'll come down to the boat to measure prior to building. So I guess I'm already half committed to him.

And it seems like no one is particularly interested in pairing up my Selden furling mast with battens, partial or full. I figure maybe if I was looking more into thinner laminates it might be more of an option, but any time I bring it up they seem to happy to steer me to a hollow leech.

Thanks again for the food for thought. I'm planning on pulling the trigger soon.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I didn't read all the comments in detail, but I don't recall anyone responding to your in mast furling mainsail needs.
Dacron is the cheapest way of going and it is built the most inexpensive way. Usually in a cross cut design. Dacron holds up a long time when it comes to not falling apart, but it also doesn't hold its shape, important for performance, in comparison to other sail materials. And there are different grades of dacron too. Sails that are made of other materials hold their shape longer than dacron, and usually they are made with more pieces, which, with many glued together rather than stitched.
It is important to talk to your sailmaker of choice to build a sail for an in mast furling mainsail, as that will have bearing on performance and rather than horizontal battens, they will put in vertical battens. I have sold many boats with in mast furling mains and if properly made, you'd be surprised at how efficient they are under sail, allowing good windward performance (but rig and hull and keel design are factors as well). I've also done a lot of offshore passage making with in mast furling systems (Selden to be exact), and I think they are great additions to cruising for carefree sailing.

 

[jdrutten]

As a follow-up, should I be concerned if a sailmaker is only asking to measure the old sail instead of measuring the actual rig?

 

[kappykaplan]

The sailmaker should measure the rig. The old sail is, well, old and stretched.

 

[FastOlson]

As a follow-up, should I be concerned if a sailmaker is only asking to measure the old sail instead of measuring the actual rig?

Yes, you should!

 

[jdrutten]

The sailmaker should measure the rig. The old sail is, well, old and stretched.

Yes, you should!

Yeah, I suppose I kind of figured. My old sail was stretched enough that I had to reposition the rodkicker further aft on the boom in order to be able to flatten the sail. The boom is now quite a bit lower and is just barely above the bimini/traveler arch. So yeah, I wasn't feeling real comfortable about measuring the sail vs measuring the rig. Kind of shakes my confidence a bit.

 

[kappykaplan]

Yeah, I suppose I kind of figured.

 

[jssailem]

Assure the rig is complete. All halyards and rigging tuned and ready to hoist a sail (i.e. the out haul is functioning on the boom not frozen in place).
Then

• measure the rig.
• Decide, based on your planned use, how many reef points are desired
• how you want to feef the sail.
• Discuss how to tension the luff of the main sail
  • with Halyard
  • with cunningham