We are thinking of selling our Legend 37 and moving to a new Hunter 36 (deep keel - no boom furler). The only review that we have found on it so far suggests that it is a bit sluggish. Does anyone have any performance results (sail and motor)? Thanks very much.
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FRENCH OWNER
We had by the past a 36 built in UK with a volvo 29HP(saildrive), the hull was a piece of ... and the stucture was badly made, floor was damaged, gaz installation didn't follow regulations,leaking water,bad sail... Finally,the boat was changed by a new one (built in AMERICA) last october and this boat has nothing to compare with the past one. The YANMAR engine is more powerful, less noisy than the Volvo, the hull is strong and all the errors have been corrected. We had to sail with bad weather in november and this boat was really powerful against the waves, wind and rain. We feel now really confident with this new boat. This is a bilge keels(1 meter 54) because we are living in a place where the tide is important and the boat can stand alone on the beach.The comfort is also good compare with other boats (more longer), i'm tall and i need this height not found on most 36. I hope this can help you to make your decision. Best Regards
We had by the past a 36 built in UK with a volvo 29HP(saildrive), the hull was a piece of ... and the stucture was badly made, floor was damaged, gaz installation didn't follow regulations,leaking water,bad sail... Finally,the boat was changed by a new one (built in AMERICA) last october and this boat has nothing to compare with the past one. The YANMAR engine is more powerful, less noisy than the Volvo, the hull is strong and all the errors have been corrected. We had to sail with bad weather in november and this boat was really powerful against the waves, wind and rain. We feel now really confident with this new boat. This is a bilge keels(1 meter 54) because we are living in a place where the tide is important and the boat can stand alone on the beach.The comfort is also good compare with other boats (more longer), i'm tall and i need this height not found on most 36. I hope this can help you to make your decision. Best Regards
not sluggish
No question the 36 is slower, just check the PHRF ratings, c. 99 for Legend 37 v. c. 140 for 356 or 36. But I wouldn't call the 356 sluggish. Certainly in even a bit of a breeze it picks up nicely and moves through the water, and sometimes I think I'm sailing a big dingy. It's no more "sluggish" than a Tartan 10, for example, would be, even though the 10 is rated slower than your 37. Don't know enough about the 37, but my guess is you'll be pleased with the extra accommodations and comfort in the 36, which is part of the tradeoff. --Paul H356 Caelum
No question the 36 is slower, just check the PHRF ratings, c. 99 for Legend 37 v. c. 140 for 356 or 36. But I wouldn't call the 356 sluggish. Certainly in even a bit of a breeze it picks up nicely and moves through the water, and sometimes I think I'm sailing a big dingy. It's no more "sluggish" than a Tartan 10, for example, would be, even though the 10 is rated slower than your 37. Don't know enough about the 37, but my guess is you'll be pleased with the extra accommodations and comfort in the 36, which is part of the tradeoff. --Paul H356 Caelum
Paper versus Real World
Paul We have looked at the various numbers on paper, but they are not always a good guide. We are more interested in real world results (ie what owners are actually achieving). Thanks very much for your feedback though.
Paul We have looked at the various numbers on paper, but they are not always a good guide. We are more interested in real world results (ie what owners are actually achieving). Thanks very much for your feedback though.
356 Performance
I have a 2002,....356 with in mast roller furling. There are a number of faster boats in the club, and I continually struggle with a PHRF that I think is unacceptable (to low) However, the last three seasons I have come in 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd overall within our club I find the boat can head in the wind and keep up with almost anyone. It's off the wind when you are against those guys with 150 genoas that present a problem. The main sail is large, but the angled spreaders are a handicap. That being said, the boat is not sluggish and a pleasure to sail
I have a 2002,....356 with in mast roller furling. There are a number of faster boats in the club, and I continually struggle with a PHRF that I think is unacceptable (to low) However, the last three seasons I have come in 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd overall within our club I find the boat can head in the wind and keep up with almost anyone. It's off the wind when you are against those guys with 150 genoas that present a problem. The main sail is large, but the angled spreaders are a handicap. That being said, the boat is not sluggish and a pleasure to sail
Numbers
Thanks for this feedback. What sort of speeds have you achieved under sail and motor and in what conditions?
Thanks for this feedback. What sort of speeds have you achieved under sail and motor and in what conditions?
Speed versus Comfort
I agree that the new 36 is very large down below and we are sold on the layout and the accomodation. Having said that, I will struggle to part with our 37 if the new 36 does not perform equally as well or better, as there are other production 36 footers that will do over 8 knots on a beam reach and based on what I am hearing I don't think the new 36 will get anywhere near that. Could you give me a bit of an idea as to the best speed that you achieved into the wind and with the wind behind you and what the true wind speed was in each instance. Thanks very much.
I agree that the new 36 is very large down below and we are sold on the layout and the accomodation. Having said that, I will struggle to part with our 37 if the new 36 does not perform equally as well or better, as there are other production 36 footers that will do over 8 knots on a beam reach and based on what I am hearing I don't think the new 36 will get anywhere near that. Could you give me a bit of an idea as to the best speed that you achieved into the wind and with the wind behind you and what the true wind speed was in each instance. Thanks very much.
will check
we had some pretty good days this summer. i'll check the log and send you a report on wind/speed. will be a couple of days before i can get to it.
we had some pretty good days this summer. i'll check the log and send you a report on wind/speed. will be a couple of days before i can get to it.
Keel and Main Configuration
Very useful information Al. What keel option did you go for? Do you have in-mast furling? Thanks again
Very useful information Al. What keel option did you go for? Do you have in-mast furling? Thanks again
Heel?
Thanks for the additional information Al. We have a shoal keel on our 37 and we find her very tender. We would definitely opt for the full keel if we went for the 36. Does your 36 heel much when sailing upwind?
Thanks for the additional information Al. We have a shoal keel on our 37 and we find her very tender. We would definitely opt for the full keel if we went for the 36. Does your 36 heel much when sailing upwind?
05H36 Performance (3)
Only when I have too much sail area out, David. Like most modern wide canoe-body hulls, Persephone sails fastest when sailed fairly flat. I usually trim (or reef) the sails to have about 15 degrees of heel. Once I find I'm having to put a lot of twist in the sails to spill excess wind, I reef-down and usually get a speed boost with the smaller - but better shaped - sail area, as she heels less. (One of the most important sailing instruments I have is my cheap inclinometer. That and the tell-tales are what I sail by. The ST60 Wind is a nice addition when fine tuning, but the little ribbons and the angle-of-heel are essential.) The stern's shape induces more weather helm as it's forced further under water by heeling. However, that is tied to her initial stability - which is form stability, not keel weight. Your deep keel will, indeed, give you a small enhancement to the boat's ultimate stability, as measured by the angle of vanishing stability. As I recall, the increment is about 2 additional degrees of AVS. I didn't feel it was worth the extra draft. (The relative amount of area under the positive and negative areas of the stability curve is essentially the same with either keel. She takes under 1/3 the wave energy to bring her upright from inverted as she does to get inverted in the first place. She's no Pacific Seacraft 40, but she's not as slow, either and has as much accommodation volume.) The boat's form stability is also due to the high freeboard. You can, of course, be heeled to 30 degrees by a big gust, but it gets very difficult to be pushed beyond that. Unless you really sail over-canvassed (or get pinned by a thunderstorm - been there, done that) you will have great difficulty getting the rail awash. (I love it when Persephone overtakes and pulls away from bigger "better" boats being sailed with their rails awash.) Will you only be sailing in deep water? Fair winds, Al
Only when I have too much sail area out, David. Like most modern wide canoe-body hulls, Persephone sails fastest when sailed fairly flat. I usually trim (or reef) the sails to have about 15 degrees of heel. Once I find I'm having to put a lot of twist in the sails to spill excess wind, I reef-down and usually get a speed boost with the smaller - but better shaped - sail area, as she heels less. (One of the most important sailing instruments I have is my cheap inclinometer. That and the tell-tales are what I sail by. The ST60 Wind is a nice addition when fine tuning, but the little ribbons and the angle-of-heel are essential.) The stern's shape induces more weather helm as it's forced further under water by heeling. However, that is tied to her initial stability - which is form stability, not keel weight. Your deep keel will, indeed, give you a small enhancement to the boat's ultimate stability, as measured by the angle of vanishing stability. As I recall, the increment is about 2 additional degrees of AVS. I didn't feel it was worth the extra draft. (The relative amount of area under the positive and negative areas of the stability curve is essentially the same with either keel. She takes under 1/3 the wave energy to bring her upright from inverted as she does to get inverted in the first place. She's no Pacific Seacraft 40, but she's not as slow, either and has as much accommodation volume.) The boat's form stability is also due to the high freeboard. You can, of course, be heeled to 30 degrees by a big gust, but it gets very difficult to be pushed beyond that. Unless you really sail over-canvassed (or get pinned by a thunderstorm - been there, done that) you will have great difficulty getting the rail awash. (I love it when Persephone overtakes and pulls away from bigger "better" boats being sailed with their rails awash.) Will you only be sailing in deep water? Fair winds, Al
Speed versus Heel Trade Off
Al We mostly sail around Sydney Harbour, so depth is not an issue. The problem (if you could put it that way) that we have with our 37 is that, as it is quite heavy, if we reef too much or spill too much air, we lose too much power. So the trade off is a bit more heel and, as you have pointed out, we then end up with more wetted surface area, more friction and a speed hit. You can certainly spend all day working the sheets and traveller to balance this (although a gust will push the toe rail under very easily if you are too near the margins). We were hoping that the new 36 would not require this level of trade off (and effort) as it is 1000lbs lighter than our boat and should therefore allow us to use less sail to get it, and keep it, moving.
Al We mostly sail around Sydney Harbour, so depth is not an issue. The problem (if you could put it that way) that we have with our 37 is that, as it is quite heavy, if we reef too much or spill too much air, we lose too much power. So the trade off is a bit more heel and, as you have pointed out, we then end up with more wetted surface area, more friction and a speed hit. You can certainly spend all day working the sheets and traveller to balance this (although a gust will push the toe rail under very easily if you are too near the margins). We were hoping that the new 36 would not require this level of trade off (and effort) as it is 1000lbs lighter than our boat and should therefore allow us to use less sail to get it, and keep it, moving.
Easy To sail
I find that if we heel too much we lose speed most tmes. I rarely if ever reef the 110 jib,the traveler can be adjusted on the arch without leaving the wheel,I just reef my Inmast main if too much heel and she will increase the speed with a lot less heel and a smoother ride. The Hunter sail plan is a lot less work than those back stay boats with the big jibs. I do a lot of singlehanded sailing on my 36. Nick
I find that if we heel too much we lose speed most tmes. I rarely if ever reef the 110 jib,the traveler can be adjusted on the arch without leaving the wheel,I just reef my Inmast main if too much heel and she will increase the speed with a lot less heel and a smoother ride. The Hunter sail plan is a lot less work than those back stay boats with the big jibs. I do a lot of singlehanded sailing on my 36. Nick
05H36 Performance (4)
David - You're right-on, with "less-is-more" wrt sail area in this boat. The 05H36 hull is quite easily driven, and only requires (my) full sail area in light airs. It's not a C&C 115 (or even a 99), but it accelerates pretty well. The new 07-08H36s have a slightly redesigned bow and stern for still less resistance. The range over which I can depower the sails by dropping the traveler, for any amount of canvas, is fairly good and by then going to additional twist it is extended a lot farther. However, like Nick, I also often singlehand. I don't usually do continual trim-tweeking. Get'em balanced and sit back. I generally use full sail only in apparent winds less than 12-15 kts; 1-reefed main (w/full jib) from there to 18-20; 2-reefed main (w/5 turns on the furler) from 20-25; and 3-reefed main (w/8 turns on the furler) from 25-30. Over 30 is usually 3-reefed mainsail, only, with increasing amounts of twist in higher winds (with traveller full-up and centered boom when closehauled, of course). I don't know what your 37's freeboard is, but the 05H36 is at the very limit of what I can step up to from a floating dock to haul myself up by the shround. That freeboard gives a pretty firm limit to heel of about 30 degrees in most cases. So I'm not talking about heel control for not scaring the wife - rather about keeping boatspeed up by not going near that angle. It sounds like you have no depth issues to worry about, so taking the additional keel depth makes sense. It can't help but improve tracking and the (small) addition to AVS is good, too. In any case, I think you'll find the H36 a lot of boat for the money. Last year I posted to the knowledgebase a summary of mods I've done to Persephone, which may (or may not) be of interest - at http://kb.sailboatowners.com/brand?post=987 Fair winds, Al
David - You're right-on, with "less-is-more" wrt sail area in this boat. The 05H36 hull is quite easily driven, and only requires (my) full sail area in light airs. It's not a C&C 115 (or even a 99), but it accelerates pretty well. The new 07-08H36s have a slightly redesigned bow and stern for still less resistance. The range over which I can depower the sails by dropping the traveler, for any amount of canvas, is fairly good and by then going to additional twist it is extended a lot farther. However, like Nick, I also often singlehand. I don't usually do continual trim-tweeking. Get'em balanced and sit back. I generally use full sail only in apparent winds less than 12-15 kts; 1-reefed main (w/full jib) from there to 18-20; 2-reefed main (w/5 turns on the furler) from 20-25; and 3-reefed main (w/8 turns on the furler) from 25-30. Over 30 is usually 3-reefed mainsail, only, with increasing amounts of twist in higher winds (with traveller full-up and centered boom when closehauled, of course). I don't know what your 37's freeboard is, but the 05H36 is at the very limit of what I can step up to from a floating dock to haul myself up by the shround. That freeboard gives a pretty firm limit to heel of about 30 degrees in most cases. So I'm not talking about heel control for not scaring the wife - rather about keeping boatspeed up by not going near that angle. It sounds like you have no depth issues to worry about, so taking the additional keel depth makes sense. It can't help but improve tracking and the (small) addition to AVS is good, too. In any case, I think you'll find the H36 a lot of boat for the money. Last year I posted to the knowledgebase a summary of mods I've done to Persephone, which may (or may not) be of interest - at http://kb.sailboatowners.com/brand?post=987 Fair winds, Al
I purchased an 08 36 last September
I've got the shoal draft keel and in mast furling option. I didn't have a chance to completely test out the boat due to the short time I had it before having to put it up for the winter, but I do know that this is a fast boat - don't know about racing it (I don't race) but for cruising it powers up quickly and easily reaches 7 knots in anything over 12 knots of wind while keeping the admiral happy (anything over 10-15 deg heel and she starts to panic). In my limited experience with the boat, it wasn't tender and very little weather helm - gave plenty of time to adjust to wind gusts with limited heeling. I know that Hunter increased the water line and reshaped the bow on this years model - I don't know if that has made some difference in the sailing characteristics over previous years. I do know that the traveler on the arch is one of the best things about sailing this boat since I single hand most of the time. The winches are also easy to reach.
I've got the shoal draft keel and in mast furling option. I didn't have a chance to completely test out the boat due to the short time I had it before having to put it up for the winter, but I do know that this is a fast boat - don't know about racing it (I don't race) but for cruising it powers up quickly and easily reaches 7 knots in anything over 12 knots of wind while keeping the admiral happy (anything over 10-15 deg heel and she starts to panic). In my limited experience with the boat, it wasn't tender and very little weather helm - gave plenty of time to adjust to wind gusts with limited heeling. I know that Hunter increased the water line and reshaped the bow on this years model - I don't know if that has made some difference in the sailing characteristics over previous years. I do know that the traveler on the arch is one of the best things about sailing this boat since I single hand most of the time. The winches are also easy to reach.
our story
I said I'd check the log, and did. We sailed for a long time at 7 to 8 mph (not knots) on a reach across Lake Michigan this summer, often at or a little over 8, in what I'd say was a nice but not heavy breeze. Coming back, on a slightly broader reach, we were steadily up over 8 on a double-reefed main, obviously in a stronger breez (and very comfortably upright, too, I might add).
I said I'd check the log, and did. We sailed for a long time at 7 to 8 mph (not knots) on a reach across Lake Michigan this summer, often at or a little over 8, in what I'd say was a nice but not heavy breeze. Coming back, on a slightly broader reach, we were steadily up over 8 on a double-reefed main, obviously in a stronger breez (and very comfortably upright, too, I might add).
Holy secs./mi Batman!
This info could be rather misleading unless the PHRF in Florida is drinking a much better class of booze than SoCal. Your SoCal rating would be 150, and even with adjustments for furling ,etc. (which SoCal Phrf won't give you unless you are in a "Cruiser" class, with that rating (210) you could probably beat Pyewacket to Diamond Hesd on the Transpac. Would like to have the explanation of how that works?
This info could be rather misleading unless the PHRF in Florida is drinking a much better class of booze than SoCal. Your SoCal rating would be 150, and even with adjustments for furling ,etc. (which SoCal Phrf won't give you unless you are in a "Cruiser" class, with that rating (210) you could probably beat Pyewacket to Diamond Hesd on the Transpac. Would like to have the explanation of how that works?
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