New Boat, Head Issues Already

[sigbear]

Hi Peggy,

My wife and I bought a New 2009 Catalina 309 last year and everything went great with the boat, however, this year we started having problems with the head.

It seems like the head works perfect for a day or so and then the bowl, even with just liquid in it, goes down ver slowly. It is a 17 gallon gallon holding tank and after being pumped out the last time we didn't put any solids or TP in the head, so, there was probably 6 gallons in the tank and the bowl would not empty, very little suction when pumping the handle and the handle is hard to push down so we have to ease it down.

Every time we pump out we go through the same issues, head works great, gets 1/4 to 1/2 full and it starts all over again.

I had the tank pumped out and filled it with water and pumped out again today.

Any suggestions?

 

[Ron20324]

It sounds like it's been sitting for 2 or 3 years with no pumping. Probably the rubber parts are stiff with age. As a first-quick step, put some mineral oil or veggie oil down the bowl. Peggy would have you follow with another grease, another way. It sounds like there is another valve in trouble, but one step at a time. Have you referred this back to the broker since it's new?

 

[Steve Dion]

should we assume that it is a Jabsco?

If so, cut your loses and replace it. My preference is a Raritan. The manual heads are really bullet proof. We have the SeaEra electric and it is greatly appreciated by the Admiral and visiting guests.

 

[sigbear]

Thank's for the quick replies, I will try mineral oil and yes it's a Jabsco.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Peggie would do none of the above!

At least not yet...

Sounds to me llike a blocked tank vent is causing each flush of the toilet to increasingly pressurize the tank... creating increasing back pressure that's making it harder and harder to flush. It works ok for a few flushes after you pump out...then gets worse as the tank becomes more and more pressurized.

The most common location for a vent blockage is the vent thru-hull. It's even worse on Catalinas, 'cuz Catalina runs vent lines into rail stanchions that have only a tiny slit in the back side of 'em. I'd bet real money that slit is blocked, 'cuz dirt daubers love to build nests in waste tank vent thru-hulls...plus, heeling can spill waste out of the vent. So that's the first thing I'd check. And then I'd move the vent line to a real thru-hull that you can backflush regularly to make sure it doesn't ever become clogged.

The other common location for a vent blockage is the other end of line--that end of the hose and the vent fitting on the tank...they both get clogged by waste buildup caused by heeling.

If it's not the vent, it has to be the toilet...we'll deal with that if we have to. But I don't see any reason to spend the money to replace it, only to find out that all you really needed to do was clean out the tank vent line. Otoh, if Steve and Ron want to buy it for you...:dance:

So clean out the vent and let me know if that solves the problem.

 

[Rick D]

I Agree With Peggy

Like you care....

 

[thinwater]

I will only add that though Peggy's diagnosis is most logical, it could be worn parts too, which only becomes obvious when there is some back pressure.

Grease the piston, consider replacing the joker valve because it sounds like it's due, and then definitely what Peggy said.

 

[sigbear]

Well, the vent was the 1st. thing that I thought of,so, I disconnected the vent hose on top of the holding tank and had my wife pump air through it while I was top deck at the vent and the air came out pretty strong. I also ran a piece of wire into the vent elbow into the tank just in case.

Sigbear

 

[Ron20324]

... Otoh, if Steve and Ron want to buy it for you...

Steve said it, not me. He's buying. I love my Jabsco. So much so, in fact, that I seem to hug it every Saturday night

 

[weinie]

Steve said it, not me. He's buying. I love my Jabsco. So much so, in fact, that I seem to hug it every Saturday night

You could try running the mascerator pump until the tank empties. If no bubbles come out after the tank has been emptied, you can be sure the vent line is clogged. You should also hear the air being sucked in if you put your ear next to the vent if the line is clear.

 

[rpwillia]

Got a recommendation?

... I'd move the vent line to a real thru-hull that you can backflush regularly to make sure it doesn't ever become clogged...

Would this be a vent that has a fitting or just one you could push a hose up to?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Not sure I understand your question...

Would this be a vent that has a fitting or just one you could push a hose up to?

It would be a vent line connected to a thru-hull that looks just like the one in the photo. Can be bronze or marelon...I don't recommend nylon or stainless.

 

[Steve Dion]

If you don't recommend nylon or stainless, what should we use?

Oh ya! Bronze or Marelon, but why?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Ok...we've eliminated a blocked vent

Step 2. Replace the joker valve in the toilet. Here's why:

JOKER VALVE 101

Most people think that the only thing the joker valve does is acts as a check valve to stop backflow from returning to the toilet or odor from the tank from escaping through the toilet. But that's not a joker valve's most important function...in fact, the joker valve is THE single most important replaceable part in a manual toilet.

Here’s how the discharge half of the pump works: On the upstroke of the piston, a vacuum is created in the area beneath the piston. This causes the joker valve to close tightly, and the flapper valve beneath the pump to open, allowing some of the contents of the toilet bowl to be drawn into the bottom half of the pump. Then, on the down stroke of the piston, the flapper valve is slammed shut, and the effluent is forced out of the bottom of the pump, through the joker valve, and off down the line. But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston...less vacuum is generated when you pump it. And as it becomes more worn less and less vacuum, till finally the bowl contents simply move up and down a bit, but don't go anywhere. Sometimes the flapper valve needs to be replaced too, which is why toilets (except for a Jabsco manual) should also be rebuilt at least every 5-6 years as PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE.

You prob'ly won't notice the loss of efficiency at first because it's so gradual...same as we don't see that we've gotten a little older than we were yesterday when we look in the mirror each morning. But I guarantee you that if it's been more than 2 years since you replaced the joker valve, you need to pump the toilet at least 50% more times to move the bowl contents to the tank...or, they just aren't getting there any more.

So...replace the joker valve and after you've done that put a tablespoon of veggie oil down the toilet just to see if that helps...if it does, we'll discuss how to lube it the right way. If it doesn't work, don't spend another DIME on that toilet...replace it with a Raritan PHC...which you can get as a "conversion"...check it out here: sbo.com PHII PHC LBA

Grease the piston...

Whyizzit that so many people think that greasing the piston rod accomplishes anything? It's parts that rub against each other that need lubrication and the piston rod doesn't rub against anything...it's the stuff ON the piston rod--the seals, o-rings etc--that rub against the inside of the pump cylinder that need lubrication to keep 'em from wearing due to friction.

Weinie...if the vent is blocked, he wouldn't be able to dump the tank...'cuz it would pull a vacuum, same as pumpout would.

Steve... Bronze or Marelon, but why?

Nylon isn't UV resistant...it'lll turn into powder. Waste will corrode and pit SS. So that leaves bronze or marelon as the only choice for waste vent thru-hulls.

Hey Rick... :bang:

Standing by...

 

[captron]

Heads here heads there heads everywhere

God I luv this forum!

Step 2. Replace the joker valve in the toilet. Here's why:

JOKER VALVE 101

Most people think that the only thing the joker valve does is acts as a check valve to stop backflow from returning to the toilet or odor from the tank from escaping through the toilet. But that's not a joker valve's most important function...in fact, the joker valve is THE single most important replaceable part in a manual toilet.

Here’s how the discharge half of the pump works: On the upstroke of the piston, a vacuum is created in the area beneath the piston. This causes the joker valve to close tightly, and the flapper valve beneath the pump to open, allowing some of the contents of the toilet bowl to be drawn into the bottom half of the pump. Then, on the down stroke of the piston, the flapper valve is slammed shut, and the effluent is forced out of the bottom of the pump, through the joker valve, and off down the line. But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston...less vacuum is generated when you pump it. And as it becomes more worn less and less vacuum, till finally the bowl contents simply move up and down a bit, but don't go anywhere. Sometimes the flapper valve needs to be replaced too, which is why toilets (except for a Jabsco manual) should also be rebuilt at least every 5-6 years as PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE.

You prob'ly won't notice the loss of efficiency at first because it's so gradual...same as we don't see that we've gotten a little older than we were yesterday when we look in the mirror each morning. But I guarantee you that if it's been more than 2 years since you replaced the joker valve, you need to pump the toilet at least 50% more times to move the bowl contents to the tank...or, they just aren't getting there any more.

So...replace the joker valve and after you've done that put a tablespoon of veggie oil down the toilet just to see if that helps...if it does, we'll discuss how to lube it the right way. If it doesn't work, don't spend another DIME on that toilet...replace it with a Raritan PHC...which you can get as a "conversion"...check it out here: sbo.com PHII PHC LBA

Grease the piston...

Whyizzit that so many people think that greasing the piston rod accomplishes anything? It's parts that rub against each other that need lubrication and the piston rod doesn't rub against anything...it's the stuff ON the piston rod--the seals, o-rings etc--that rub against the inside of the pump cylinder that need lubrication to keep 'em from wearing due to friction.

Weinie...if the vent is blocked, he wouldn't be able to dump the tank...'cuz it would pull a vacuum, same as pumpout would.

Steve... Bronze or Marelon, but why?

Nylon isn't UV resistant...it'lll turn into powder. Waste will corrode and pit SS. So that leaves bronze or marelon as the only choice for waste vent thru-hulls.

Hey Rick... :bang:

Standing by...

 

[rpwillia]

Thanks

It would be a vent line connected to a thru-hull that looks just like the one in the photo. Can be bronze or marelon...I don't recommend nylon or stainless.

Peggy, A picture is worth a thousand words. Now I just have to figure where to put it. If I put it lower than the tank (the tank on the 310 sits sort of high) but have a vent loop in it would that work? I do like the idea of shoving a hose up to it to flush the tank as it would agitate the tank up nicely.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

That's easy...

Put it in the hull directly below the stanchion it's in now...just below the toe rail.

If I put it lower than the tank (the tank on the 310 sits sort of high) but have a vent loop in it would that work?

Nope...you don't want any loops, sags, bends or anything else in a tank vent line..and it cannot be lower than the tank. It needs to be a straight line from the tank to the hull that's at least as high as the tank.

However, you'd only flush out the VENT LINE via the vent thru-hull...that's not how you'd flush out the tank. You'd do that by putting water into the tank via the deck pumpout fitting.

 

[rpwillia]

Response

Put it in the hull directly below the stanchion it's in now...just below the toe rail.

If I put it lower than the tank (the tank on the 310 sits sort of high) but have a vent loop in it would that work?

Nope...you don't want any loops, sags, bends or anything else in a tank vent line..and it cannot be lower than the tank. It needs to be a straight line from the tank to the hull that's at least as high as the tank.

However, you'd only flush out the VENT LINE via the vent thru-hull...that's not how you'd flush out the tank. You'd do that by putting water into the tank via the deck pumpout fitting.

:theman:

 

[jsalley]

Peggie, I also have a Catalina 309 like the OP, though an earlier version. All newer Catalinas (at least since the early 2000's) have the holding tank vented through the hull topside, about 6" below the toe rail, but the vent is 3/4" and the through-hull fitting has a 90 degree angle inside which is not ideal. I'm having a similar problem as the OP with my head, which is a W-C Headmate, though the difficult pumping doesn't seem to correlate with the level in the holding tank. Tank pumps out without difficulty and the vent line doesn't seem to be obstructed, so I suspect the joker valve, based on your posts above. Sound like I'm on the right track?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

It won't cost you much to find out

And if it's been at least two years since the joker valve was replaced, it needs to be, whether that solves your problem or not.

However, if the main problem is a toilet that's gotten stiff and hard to pump, but it's not back pressure, the pump prob'ly is just in desperate need of lubrication. A $5.99 tube of SuperLube thick teflon grease will solve that problem...you can flush a tablespoon of vegetable oil to see how much lubrication does or doesn't help.

If a new joker and lubrication doesn't solve your problem, IMO it's time for a new toilet. Thetford discontinued the Headmate--the whole W-C product line--a couple of years ago, so I wouldn't put any more than the price of a joker valve into it.

Btw... Hose sizes are always determined by the INNER diameter (ID), so I'm 99% certain that your tank vent hose is actually 5/8"--which is the standard size for all tank--fuel, water AND waste--vents. 3/4" would be the outer diameter (OD). Hose sizes are always ID and fittings sizes are always OD....to know which size hose fits onto which size fitting.

I see that you're in Deltaville...I'll be there next month. The Chesapeake Bay Grand Banks Owners have invited me to give seminars at their rendezvous at Doziers. Drop by to say hi if you can.