Need advice on filling space between fiberglass....

[Leeward Rail]

Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening All,

On my C22, the previous owner had a furler installed. The yard that did the work, SCREWED the furling line cleat to the side of the cockpit coaming. As expected, over time one of the screws was loose, and the second one not far behind.

Based on the cleat location, I thought it would be an easy task to epoxy the existing holes, redrill, then bolt it in place.

The cleat is just at the aft end of one of the cockpit storage bins. (not the lockers)
The bins have a liner bonded into them, and there is a gap between the liner and the coaming.
I had assumed the space was accessible from inside the starboard locker area, but that's not the case.

I looked the option of moving the cleat further aft so that the mounting location would be accessible from inside, but then it will interfere with the aft pulpit stanchion.

The West System manual shows a method where you:
-over drill the hole
-saturate a piece of foam that can fill the space, with epoxy
-stuff the foam into the space and let it cure.
-drill the hole and prep for finishing

Another option may be to cut a hole to access the space from inside the starboard locker, and put a piece of epoxy saturated plywood up into the space.

I'm leaning towards using the foam method since it doesn't require any cutting.
Has anyone done this ?

Any other ideas or suggestions ?

Cheers,
Roy

 

[woodster]

use some six-10 west systems to fill those holes ...you can't saturate plywood with epoxy without using a pressure chamber under great pressure and still no guarantee it gets totally saturated

 

[CaptDon01]

Some photos of the cleat location would help, then I could take a look at my "new design" boat and possibly come up with an idea.

Don

 

[Leeward Rail]

Some photos of the cleat location would help, then I could take a look at my "new design" boat and possibly come up with an idea.

Don

hehe. Was out taking photos when you posted.

If you stick your hand up into the bin at the top, you can feel the gap between the fibreglass sections.
The space isn't very wide. Under 1/2" at the very least. More like 1/4". I'm currently looking for some soft material so I can press it into the gap to determine the thickness.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Many of us attach a small block to the base of the stanchion and put a Johnson Add-a-Cleat above it on the stanchion tubing.

 

[Leeward Rail]

I just got off the phone with gougeon brothers/west system tech line.

The "saturate foam with epoxy and stick in hole" method isn't great for this purpose.
A big enough piece of foam, would need to to compressed so much to fit in the hole, that it would force too much of the epoxy out of the foam.

His suggestion is to spray household expanding foam into the hole.
Once the foam cures, remove a bunch of it from around the hole with a bent nail.
Then fill the hole with six10, redrill, and mount the small cleat.
Kinda like "potting" a hole but in a larger scale.

He said that just using the six10 would likely slump down in the hole to much.

I found some plumbers putty so I'm gonna go measure the gap

 

[Leeward Rail]

The gap is approximately 1/2".

Looking at access inside the bin, the location of cleat, I should be able to use a bent piece of metal to push some household foam backer rod down into the gap from inside the bin.
Then I should be able to pull the ends of the foam rod up so it forms a cup shape around the hole area. Some tape along the top of the gap and I should have a nice space around the hole to fill with the six10.

I've got a call into our local west system dealer. Hopefully they have some six10 in stock.

Woodster:
Thanks for the heads up about the six10. I Didn't know it existed.
That makes sense about saturating the plywood with epoxy. I would assume even real wood would be almost impossible to saturate above a very small diameter because the thinned epoxy would likely cure before it soaked in, even if the wood readily absorbed it. :bang: Duh.

EDIT: the best part about the six10 is that it should work for potting deck hardware just like the little repair packages I've used, but with no waste.

WestSystem info:
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/six10-introduction/

Link to the Sbo store:
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?13554

 

[Leeward Rail]

Well, it's filled with epoxy...

First, I drilled out the hole to a larger size.
This way the tip of the tapered nozzle on the six-10 epoxy tube would fit in the hole. Not the whole way in. Just enough so that the beveled tip would sit snug into the opening.
This way I could pump epoxy into the opening with enough force to fill the void up, while minimizing the amount leaking out.

Inside the bin area, with holes from the tips of the over length screws that were originally used to install the furling line cleat.

The space between the fibreglass is approximately 1/2", so I bought some 5/8 Foam Backer Rod, which is available at most home reno stores. It's commonly used for filling large gaps before caulking around windows and doors.
Perfect for my needs.

Foam Backer Rod. Perfect for keeping the epoxy filler where it needs to be.

I took a length of the foam, and pushed it into the gap between the storage bin liner and the outer deck fibreglass.

Foam Started into Place

I then used a large bent 8" nail to push it down far enough to be below where the cleat is mounted.

Using the Nail to push the foam far enough down below the cleat location.

I then folded the foam back across the top, forming a loop, then put masking tape along the top to help prevent the foam from coming out when pumping epoxy into the space.
The masking tape also covered the existing screw holes so that the epoxy wouldn't leak out.

Foam Folder over the top, ready to be pushed into the edge with my fingers.

Foam in place, with tape over top to keep it from pushing out under pressure

Next up, was to use the tube of six-10 epoxy to fill the space, by pumping it into the outside holes.
I had my crew look into the bin area, and tell me if/when any epoxy was oozing out from under the foam and tape.
I pumped it into one hole until epoxy started being forced out the second. I then pumped epoxy into that second hole, until epoxy was being forced out the first hole.

Epoxy filler pumped into the bottom hole, eventually forces itself out of the top hole

Then, I wiped down the second hole, put some tape over it, and slowly pumped epoxy in, until my crew told me that she saw some oozing out inside the bin.
This way I made sure that I had as few air pockets as possible. (hopefully none)

Tape over the top hole. Space now completely filled with Epoxy filler

I smoothed off the excess, and used paper towels and acetone to clean up.


In hindsight, I should have lined more of the bin with tape. By the time she saw the epoxy, it was too late to prevent a small amount of it from dropping onto the bin area.
Like any caulking system, there is a delay between when you stop pumping, and when it stops flowing. The pressure built up in the void between the fibreglass made even more of a delay, so a even though I was pumping slowly, a decent sized blob oozed out inside the bin.
Simple to clean up, but easier if we didn't have to.

My only concern is that where was no decent way to ensure the inside fibreglass surfaces were clean. Here's hoping it bonds well. Worst case I can inject some normal epoxy into the cleat mounting holes and re-drill them.

<will update post once the epoxy cures and I can continue>

 

[Leeward Rail]

Tonight's low temp here will be 40 F just before sunrise (is currently 57 F), so I have resorted to sticking an automotive trouble light into the storage bin area, and covered that part of the cockpit with a tarp. (just like raising baby chicks hehe)
For you uninitiated warm climate sailors, that will heat the area to allow curing :cussing::cry:
(This six-10 has a minimum application temperature of 50F)

I'm not sure if having the trouble light's metal cage laying right on the gelcoat will run the risk of scorching it. Just to be sure, I have a timer set to remind me to go out and check it once in a while, until I'm sure it will be ok.

Edit: On a good note.. the light shining through the gelcoat to the outside of the deck, shows a nice solid dark area around the cleat mounting location. Looks like it has no air spaces. :dance:

 

[woodster]

Tonight's low temp here will be 40 F just before sunrise (is currently 57 F), so I have resorted to sticking an automotive trouble light into the storage bin area, and covered that part of the cockpit with a tarp. (just like raising baby chicks hehe)
For you uninitiated warm climate sailors, that will heat the area to allow curing :cussing::cry:
(This six-10 has a minimum application temperature of 50F)

I'm not sure if having the trouble light's metal cage laying right on the gelcoat will run the risk of scorching it. Just to be sure, I have a timer set to remind me to go out and check it once in a while, until I'm sure it will be ok.

Edit: On a good note.. the light shining through the gelcoat to the outside of the deck, shows a nice solid dark area around the cleat mounting location. Looks like it has no air spaces. :dance:

the light bulb trick ...just like when we need to keep the pump house from freezing ..the old ways prevail once again

 

[CaptDon01]

That's actually a pretty typical place for the furling line cleat. I'll try to get some time this weekend and go to my RV storage lot and take a look at my boat like yours.

Don

 

[Gene Neill]

Well, it's filled with epoxy...

In hindsight, I should have lined more of the bin with tape. By the time she saw the epoxy, it was too late to prevent a small amount of it from dropping onto the bin area.

It's a little late now, but this stuff works well and would seal the heck out of a gap like that.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=64347

 

[Leeward Rail]

Woody: Yeah. The thing about old tried and true methods, is most of them fit in with the "keep it simple" concept. I've never seen the "light bulb as heater" idea used on pump houses here, since the winter temps get too far below freezing for it to work. But I've seen it used a lot on the other type of houses, where you want the seat warm, in spring and fall. ;-)


The light bulb trick was 100% successful.
With a tarp over top, the 72 watt Halogen bulb (meant to replace a 100w conventional one), kept the fibreglass nice and warm, but not enough to damage the gelcoat.

By Saturday AM the epoxy was cured, so I could redrill the holes and mount the cleat with new stainless machine screws/bolts

Before I could mount the cleat, I needed to sand the outside area smooth. (The original screws had damaged the holes so I needed to spread epoxy on that area)
I've been using 3M Roloc bristle discs for automotive repairs for a while, and they also work well for this type of thing. They are discs that attach to a die grinder or drill with a special mounting pad. The look like round rubber brushes, and are available in various abrasive levels. I've been using the white ones, which supposedly correspsonds to 120 grit paper. I find that, when used correctly, they do the job quickly, while being soft enough to not remove too much material too fast.
http://3mcollision.com/products/abr...istle-disc-07528-white-2-inch-fine-07528.html

 

[Jacktar]

If this doesn't work how about just thru bolting with fender washers on inside of box and nylon insert nuts. Although a little flexy the strain should not be too great just for the furling line load. Maximum would only be placed on it when you reef it .

 

[Leeward Rail]

If this doesn't work how about just thru bolting with fender washers on inside of box and nylon insert nuts. Although a little flexy the strain should not be too great just for the furling line load. Maximum would only be placed on it when you reef it .

Not a bad idea at all. While the foam and epoxy method I used worked great, your method is definitely one that other people reading this thread can use.

 

[Leeward Rail]

It's a little late now, but this stuff works well and would seal the heck out of a gap like that.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=64347

That stuff looks exactly like the West System Six-10, I used. Right down to the mixing nozzle, and actual tube design. Makes you wonder who made it.
I notice the Jamestown Distributors version includes an extra mixing nozzle and is slightly cheaper.