My Bilge Pump & Gauge Lights Don't Work..?

[Maine Sail]

This is a good reason why I often dislike the use of solder on boats. It is soooo often done incorrectly... If you must use solder please use the right solder and crimp first, then solder and also use plenty of strain relief and proper heat sinking, or technique, to avoid solder creeping up the wire.

This had been "soldered" to a terminal except the solder never adhered, cold solder joint, and the terminal had never been crimped so it simply parted ways. It only adhered to the small band near the back of the fitting but the rest of the terminal broke off. This was a live 12V wire dangling behind a gauge panel!!

Top Quality Soldering:

This was a bilge pump wire that had been soldered and fractured at the terminal. The wire then dangled live into the bilge causing some bad galvanic issues before tripping the fuse..

Please be careful and use some common sense! 55% of boat fires are electrical in nature.(source ABYC)

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Great example of why soldering gets such an undeserved bad reputation - people rely on it for a mechanical connections.

 

[KD3PC]

another problem with incorrect soldering and crimping is that often times the wrong stripper, or a knife is used to strip the wire and often the outer few strands are cut or scored. With just a little flexing, they WILL break where the insulation stops, which is often not in the crimp, nor soldered.

You must use the correct stripper for the size wire you have and make sure that it is not cutting too deeply into the wire strands....you should not see ANY copper on the tinned strands of quality marine wire

 

[Island Girl 34]

Soldering is not all bad!

To be fair, IF done correctly, soldering makes the best high quality, reliable connection that can be made. As a trained mirco-miniature technician in my former job, I have seen the right and wrong ways to make a solder connection. Solder is never used to make the mechanical connection. The wires must be solidly connected first then soldered correctly. There is a huge difference between the cold soldered horror story photos in this thread than a well made high reliability solder connection. Crimping is great in most places but there are some spots on boat where only soldering does the job right.

Just my .02

 

[Maine Sail]

To be fair, IF done correctly, soldering makes the best high quality, reliable connection that can be made. As a trained mirco-miniature technician in my former job, I have seen the right and wrong ways to make a solder connection. Solder is never used to make the mechanical connection. The wires must be solidly connected first then soldered correctly. There is a huge difference between the cold soldered horror story photos in this thread than a well made high reliability solder connection. Crimping is great in most places but there are some spots on boat where only soldering does the job right.

Just my .02

The big problem, and the reason the ABYC disallows solder only terminations, is because most individuals are not properly trained. I see a lot of failed crimps that were improperly done but more failures of solder joints. I still solder the center pin of PL-259's but that's about it these days. A monkey with the right tools can make a decent crimp connection but the same can usually not be said for solder and it requires a skill beyond what most installers & DIY's have.

I have seen plumbers solder & flux used, no heat sink to prevent creep, melted wire jackets and plenty of failed cold solder joints. VHF PL-259's are the most notorious I see for poor soldering and this can be a major safety issue. I have a PL-259 in my car where the installer got cold solder joints on both the pin and the braid...Took the tape off and I was holding the 259 in my hand detached from the coax. Never fun re-installing one 55 feet up in the air rocking back & forth...

If I had to take a stab at it I would say that under 5% of the solder joints I have seen on boats have been done correctly.

 

[Forrest15112]

A good method for wire is to tin the exposed wire with solder and then crimp. The crappy PL-259's, are usually caused by not enough heat or too much heat. Most will usually get the center pin OK but the braid is tough to heated up properly along with the connector. I've seen too many guys try to get this with a 40 watt iron. or melt the teflon dielectric trying with a gun. I much prefer crimp-on RF connectors. When used properly, there is no advantage to using solder.

 

[Bill Roosa]

So MS, how do i get a good mechanical connection before I solder? WUPTS?

 

[Maine Sail]

A good method for wire is to tin the exposed wire with solder and then crimp. The crappy PL-259's, are usually caused by not enough heat or too much heat. Most will usually get the center pin OK but the braid is tough to heated up properly along with the connector. I've seen too many guys try to get this with a 40 watt iron. or melt the teflon dielectric trying with a gun. I much prefer crimp-on RF connectors. When used properly, there is no advantage to using solder.

Actually pre-solder tinning of wire before crimping is advised against and is specifically banned by many standards including NASA. You want the individual strands to cold form with the terminal for a proper "gas tight" crimp to be formed. Pre-tinned wire does not like to cold form the way individual strands do and this is why crimping of pre-tinned wire is frowned upon. Crimping first then soldering is fine, provided it is done correctly.

If you want to pre-tin it would be best to buy pre-tinned wire where each strand is factory tinned individually.

This is NASA's take on soldering pre-tinned wire:

"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."

 

[Maine Sail]

So MS, how do i get a good mechanical connection before I solder? WUPTS?

Crimping is generally how it's done. You are best though to use terminals designed for crimp then solder than trying to use crimp terminals then soldering them.. The catch here is that many of these crimp then solder terminals are of rather light weight construction, hard to find tin plated, and require yet another different crimp tool.

For the 95% or so of boaters out there who don't know how to solder (data based on what I see) I would simply advise staying with crimping. If you want very long lived crimp terminals use adhesive lined heat shrink crimp terminals.

That green soldered bilge pump wire above failed due to fracturing at the hard spot. It was right next to two adhesive lined heat shrink crimps installed in 1996, the year the boat was built. Those connections are still perfect despite living under water in this bilge for close to 15 years.

 

[Bill Roosa]

OK, I was thinking of wire only type connections though. Let me rephrase.

If I was to only use wire, how would I insure a strong mechanical connection before soldering?

 

[Bob McL]

Many years ago when I was working as an electronics tech on the Lunar Excursion Module, they had us change from a full wire wrap to a terminal to a half wire wrap, then solder. This meant that the solder had to provide the mechanical connection. The reason was weight. Note: I am not talking about a crimp terminal, but one designed like a small nail on a circuit board, usually gold plated.

 

[Maine Sail]

OK, I was thinking of wire only type connections though. Let me rephrase.

If I was to only use wire, how would I insure a strong mechanical connection before soldering?

If trying to wire to applicable & accepted standards such as ABYC E-11 there is no wire to wire connection that counts as "mechanical". Even Western Union splices are disallowed as a "mechanical" connection as are wire nuts etc.. Unlike shore based solid copper wiring we are dealing with finely stranded wire that does not splice or twist well to itself or develop any the required strength when doing so..

 

[J Hunter]

I did all my heavy gage terminal end soldering without using the very strict guidelines I saw you explain with very specific terminal ends and type of solder (if I remember). I don't doubt the superiority of the materials and methods you describe, but I have experienced no failures and had very specific reasons for choosing my unapproved methods and materials.

I used plain copper crimp lugs- way cheaper then the fancy ones that are correct. I used liquid acid flux, silver bearing solder and a small torch. I admit to bringing pipe soldering techniques into my electrical soldering, but I did not at anytime produce the disastrous results you predict and depict.

I stripped the wire for about a 1/4 inch space between the end of the crimp lug and the insulation. I etched both the copper lug and the wire end with the acid. I put a sleeve of heat shrink over the wire. I insert the wire into the lug and crimp it forcefully, I only use the wire/lug combo that matches the lug wire size rating. I hold the lug in a vise on the hole area of the lug with the wire sticking up. I spray a little heat sink compound on the insulation right up to the edge of the exposed wire. I hold the end of the solder right at the lug/wire interface I put the blue tip of my torch right on the the lug down close to where it's about to flatten out and opposite to the side I have the solder touching and as soon as I see the solder flow in and all the way around the wire I take off the torch. After it cools I clean off the heat sink snot and slip the heat shrink over the connection and shrink it in place.

I have had extreme difficulty years ago getting a lug/wire connection hot enough with an iron or gun to get a nice flow of electronic solder into the whole joint. I also have had a number of times when a plain crimped joint failed. I hacksawed one of my torch/bearing solder/liquid acid flux connections open to check it- it was completely full of solder with no voids.

I suppose I'd use your method and the super nice crimp lugs next time, but at that point it's getting up towards the price of buying pre-made cables. I forget did you say use solder at all on making your own battery cables? Don't you find getting that mass of lug/large wire end hot enough to get the solder flowing all at once difficult? Does the flux core solder ever sort of run short of flux by liquifying the flux and having it find a single gravity path and not etch all the surface area needed among all those strands and the complete inside bore of the lug?

I describe this not to suggest this to anyone else, I'm sold on your mastery and understanding of the proper methods for this work Main, I only describe it in detail to get your opinion on the actual material and workmanship weaknesses in my homespun method and clarification on the solder material, method, tools and time required for the actual soldering of heavy gage 12v wire terminals when I do it again.

 

[Ken Cross]

It depends

I am properly trained but use crimp connections for most connections. It's faster and in most cases will never fail. I've connected both moisture proof and standard connections in the aerospace industry.

I'm glad MainSail spoke up about the hazards of pre-tinning. Pre-Tinning is only good in a few cases.

Regardless of connection type there are 3 normal failure modes:

• Corrosion (always keep water and humid air out)
• Mechanical breakage (such as bending back and forth until something breaks)
• Poor techniques (like overheating or cold solder, under or over crimping)

 

[kpgraci]

First, was that Phil or Maine that came up with that horrible pun?

On topic, I don't trust crimped connections, maybe I'm wrong, but I crimp then solder. I've built a lot of electronic kits when I was a kid, so while I have no formal tranning I can solder a lot better than what we see in Maine's first picture, that's bad, way too much heat. Anything exposed I wrap up in tape, that way no one can see it.

 

[Maine Sail]

I did all my heavy gage terminal end soldering without using the very strict guidelines I saw you explain with very specific terminal ends and type of solder (if I remember). I don't doubt the superiority of the materials and methods you describe, but I have experienced no failures and had very specific reasons for choosing my unapproved methods and materials.

I used plain copper crimp lugs- way cheaper then the fancy ones that are correct. I used liquid acid flux, silver bearing solder and a small torch. I admit to bringing pipe soldering techniques into my electrical soldering, but I did not at anytime produce the disastrous results you predict and depict.

I stripped the wire for about a 1/4 inch space between the end of the crimp lug and the insulation. I etched both the copper lug and the wire end with the acid. I put a sleeve of heat shrink over the wire. I insert the wire into the lug and crimp it forcefully, I only use the wire/lug combo that matches the lug wire size rating. I hold the lug in a vise on the hole area of the lug with the wire sticking up. I spray a little heat sink compound on the insulation right up to the edge of the exposed wire. I hold the end of the solder right at the lug/wire interface I put the blue tip of my torch right on the the lug down close to where it's about to flatten out and opposite to the side I have the solder touching and as soon as I see the solder flow in and all the way around the wire I take off the torch. After it cools I clean off the heat sink snot and slip the heat shrink over the connection and shrink it in place.

I have had extreme difficulty years ago getting a lug/wire connection hot enough with an iron or gun to get a nice flow of electronic solder into the whole joint. I also have had a number of times when a plain crimped joint failed. I hacksawed one of my torch/bearing solder/liquid acid flux connections open to check it- it was completely full of solder with no voids.

I suppose I'd use your method and the super nice crimp lugs next time, but at that point it's getting up towards the price of buying pre-made cables. I forget did you say use solder at all on making your own battery cables? Don't you find getting that mass of lug/large wire end hot enough to get the solder flowing all at once difficult? Does the flux core solder ever sort of run short of flux by liquifying the flux and having it find a single gravity path and not etch all the surface area needed among all those strands and the complete inside bore of the lug?

I describe this not to suggest this to anyone else, I'm sold on your mastery and understanding of the proper methods for this work Main, I only describe it in detail to get your opinion on the actual material and workmanship weaknesses in my homespun method and clarification on the solder material, method, tools and time required for the actual soldering of heavy gage 12v wire terminals when I do it again.

The problems with your crimps are most likely, your crimps.

#1 If you can get solder to flow into a properly crimped battery lug then it was not properly crimped to begin with. Solder will not flow where there is physically no space for it to flow. A proper crimp will leave a connection so tight that even submersion in water for six months will leave the sealed end of the crimp lug bone dry. I've done this and loaded the sealed end with grains of sugar. After six months I removed it from the water, drilled a hole and the dry sugar fell out.

#2 Plumbers flux will eventually lead to increased corrosion. It is an acid. In plumbing pipes the water inside the pipes flushes and dilutes the acid. There is nothing to dilute it inside a battery lug. This is why there are electrical grade solders and cleaners and plumbing grade.

#3 The difference in price between heavy duty tin plated lugs is not a lot but the difference in longevity that I see is rather dramatic when comparing tin plated lugs to bare copper. Tin plated lugs are not immune to corrosion, but it does hold it off significantly longer. Also many of the bare copper lugs are very light duty and the wall thickness is very thin leading to the old "fishing with a wet noodle syndrome"... I have seen 2/0 wire terminated with these lugs and the weight of the wire alone will bend the lug. If you're using bare copper lugs you can paint them with silicon dielectric grease after you connect them to the battery. No-Ox-Id is also good and actually holds up better than silicone dielectric and is a conducting grease not a dielectric so it actually aids your electrical connection.. Either of these will greatly reduce the corrosion potential.

#4 If you had a crimped lug fall off then it was simply not properly crimped. A properly crimped battery lug should easily hold over 1000 pounds of tensile force on sufficient sized battery cable.

#5 Most don't want to invest in a $150.00+ in the proper crimping tool but Genuinedealz.com will terminate lugs for $1.00 per crimp. This is well worth it. Simply measure what you need, and note the lug hole sizes, and they'll make them up for you.


The bottom line is if you're comfortable with your work on your boat then your good to go.

 

[J Hunter]

thanks main. All good info. My crimpers are definitely what is wanting - they are industrial electricians crimpers but they let the lug eggl out as they simply pinch the middle of the wire between just two sides of the lug. That's why my solder can flow down the sides and fill in the voids. And I also used the cheaper larger strand wire that affords small voids between the strands too. The flux I used isn't the paste with acid, it's the total liquid acid stuff, which tends to leave very little residue or react ability after it etches the copper and evaporates. Not as strong a crimp, not a mechanically sealed crimp at all, void spaces in the pre soldered connection, but I do have at least a substandard but immobile mechanical connection with the solder serving to seal out water that gets past the shrink wrap.

 

[Maine Sail]

thanks main. All good info. My crimpers are definitely what is wanting - they are industrial electricians crimpers but they let the lug eggl out as they simply pinch the middle of the wire between just two sides of the lug. That's why my solder can flow down the sides and fill in the voids. And I also used the cheaper larger strand wire that affords small voids between the strands too. The flux I used isn't the paste with acid, it's the total liquid acid stuff, which tends to leave very little residue or react ability after it etches the copper and evaporates. Not as strong a crimp, not a mechanically sealed crimp at all, void spaces in the pre soldered connection, but I do have at least a substandard but immobile mechanical connection with the solder serving to seal out water that gets past the shrink wrap.

But up on the lake corrosion is not nearly as much of a concern as we deal with in the salty stuff, so if it is working....

 

[Forrest15112]

Actually pre-solder tinning of wire before crimping is advised against and is specifically banned by many standards including NASA. You want the individual strands to cold form with the terminal for a proper "gas tight" crimp to be formed. Pre-tinned wire does not like to cold form the way individual strands do and this is why crimping of pre-tinned wire is frowned upon. Crimping first then soldering is fine, provided it is done correctly.

If you want to pre-tin it would be best to buy pre-tinned wire where each strand is factory tinned individually.

This is NASA's take on soldering pre-tinned wire:

"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."

That's interesting but I have had good results from crimping tinned wire. You can actually tell the difference by the way it crimps. It won't completely crimp like untinned wire does. I'm certain it isn't as strong as crimping untinned wire but isn't weak like a cheap crimper tool job either. My reason for doing it is in an exposed environment, the tinning will protect the wire from corrosion. In those situations, I'm not as worried about the strength of the connection but I think I have a new way now... I typically use nylon butt splices or ring terminals in this manner and have never thought to solder afterwards. You must use non insulated terminals and splices right? Thanks for the tip. That's really useful.

 

[Forrest15112]

The problems with your crimps are most likely, your crimps.

#1 If you can get solder to flow into a properly crimped battery lug then it was not properly crimped to begin with. Solder will not flow where there is physically no space for it to flow. A proper crimp will leave a connection so tight that even submersion in water for six months will leave the sealed end of the crimp lug bone dry. I've done this and loaded the sealed end with grains of sugar. After six months I removed it from the water, drilled a hole and the dry sugar fell out.

This is really interesting but, dude, we need to get you a girlfriend or something.