MSD portapotty and resale value on a trailer sailor

[Gene Neill]

I'm thinking about installing a self-contained MSD potty on our C22, but I'm wondering how many potential buyers would see this as a downside. My concern is that many/most people who buy a 22' swing keel boat are only planning to trailer sail/day sail on some lake or river where pumpout facilities don't exist, and/or to sail in near-shore waters where overboard dumping is illegal.

For these people, the MSD potty would be useless because they couldn't empty it. And now there are a bunch of big holes in the boat. Two holes through the deck, four through the liner, and one through the hull. Plus four screw holes where the pump was mounted.

What does the group think? Will she be harder to sell?

 

[sailme88]

The way I look at this is: You upgrade a boat to the way you want it... or you upgrade to sell it. Sounds like you are hung up in no man's land. If you are looking to sell, why not reduce the price commensurate for the head costs and let the new owner figure it out....

 

[justsomeguy]

You've already put all those holes in her, correct?

 

[Justin_NSA]

I'm thinking about installing a self-contained MSD potty on our C22, but I'm wondering how many potential buyers would see this as a downside. My concern is that many/most people who buy a 22' swing keel boat are only planning to trailer sail/day sail on some lake or river where pumpout facilities don't exist, and/or to sail in near-shore waters where overboard dumping is illegal.

For these people, the MSD potty would be useless because they couldn't empty it. And now there are a bunch of big holes in the boat. Two holes through the deck, four through the liner, and one through the hull. Plus four screw holes where the pump was mounted.

What does the group think? Will she be harder to sell?

I think you answered your own question, although @sailme88 is right. For now, it's your boat to enjoy as you see fit.

 

[thinwater]

Not being able to empty it would be an enormous negative. In fact, on my F-24 we've gone to using WAG bags instead of the using the portable head (we drape the bags in the head). Less hassle, no water to freeze in the winter. Since we nearly always just day sail, we just use shoreside faculties ahead of time, use a urinal or wizz off the side, and have not used the bags in years.

My last boat had an installed head. Nice. The boat before that had a porta-a-head, and it was a drag, but we cruised that one up to two weeks, so it worked.

I would not want a holding tank I could not pump overboard with my own pump or otherwise drain unassisted.

 

[31seahorse]

A "self contained MSD potty" sounds to me like it will include a holding tank as part of the unit. Even if there were pump out facilities where that boat and its equipment would be used, would the holding tank withstand pump out vacuum activity without collapsing yet still be able to be completely emptied?

All the sailboatdata sketches show what appears to be a port-a-potty type of head tucked under part of the v berth. That seems appropriate for those "I really gotta go!" situations. The portability of those designs allow for complete emptying and rinsing in a standard lakeside bathroom facility. Although, from personal experience one needs to time the disposal carefully so there are no other guests in the bathroom area! I think there are also bag style containment systems that might be useful in some situations with disposal in a dumpster.

If you plan to sell the boat (which will surely happen at some point in the future) I would keep the boat as original as possible regarding the comfort facilities.

 

[Sailor Sue]

Personally I don't think that would enhance your resale prospects.
I also don't see the advantage of a permanent mount. In addition to all the holes you've already mentioned, you now have to move the whole boat to a pump out facility.

 

[Leeward Rail]

I figure that they stopped installing them in the C22 for a reason.
But people also wanted them.

Since every land and water vehicle I have owned end up well above any possible resale value recovery (like most boats), I just say do what ya want.

 

[LeeandRick]

There are some areas (some places on the Canadian side of the Great Lakes) where MSD is required. When I pulled the old 42 year old sea head and associated parts out of my boat, I thought about another MSD. After weighing the pros and cons and my planned cruising area the ease of a use of a large portable (5 gal) was installed. My winter marina even has an RV dump station which makes dumping easy. We also use a water squirt bottle to rinse with which uses less water, that goes in the holding tank, to rinse. We have a bottle of cat litter and plastic bags to place in the bowl for heavy particulate matter. I did learn from a Boat US course that most states have laws against peeing over the side into the water. Like speeding they gotta catch me. In a Catalina 22 I would stick with the portable.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

QUOTE="Gene Neill, post: 1676679, member: 122322"] For these people, the MSD potty would be useless because they couldn't empty it. And now there are a bunch of big holes in the boat. Two holes through the deck, four through the liner, and one through the hull. Plus four screw holes where the pump was mounted. [/QUOTE]

After reading all the comments to the thread, it's pretty obvious that non of y'all know the first thing about MSD portapotties...'cuz none of that is true. The only difference between the portable versions and the MSD versions is, the MSD version has fittings for a pumpout line and a vent line. "Permanently installed" only means they have sturdier brackets that portable versions...the tank can still be carried off the boat if no pumpout is available.

As for all those holes in the boat that you're imagining...There'd be the same number of screw holes for the brackets in the cabin sole (floor) as a portable pottie, plus two holes for the vent vent and the pumpout fitting. I have no idea where you go the idea that there's a pump...there is no pump, so no mounting holes for it.

The complete instructions with drawings and diagrams for the Dometic 975MSD (the only MSD version still available in the US) are here https://www.defender.com/pdf/Dometic_975.
Or...you can go with any portapotty and just suck out the tank with a shop vac if you don't want the convenience of being able to use a pumpout and don't want to carry the tank off the boat--which you can also do if you have the portable version...which I think would be your best choice.

And btw, peeing over the side IS legal--although you could run afoul of any public indecency laws...dumping a tank or putting it into any other container and pouring it over the side is not.

--Peggie

 

[thinwater]

Technically you are absolutely correct, but functionally, for me, not so much. Others will feel differently.

Weight. Although this varies, they typically hold over 5 gallons when full. I cannot lift what will be nearly 50 pounds (sewage plus lower half) out of an awkward location, through the companionway, out of the cockpit of a rocking boat, and over to the dock without eventual injury or accident. It's just not practical. A smaller potty, sure, and I didn't really like it, but not a 50-pound brute. Sure, you could plan on not filling it.

Shop Vac to empty. I might as well give up sailing now. Not interested. I think 98% would agree.

Like a steamer trunk as luggage, it is too big to pick up and thus makes no sense to me. A big strong guy might feel differently... but I was 20-something and plenty strong when I reached this conclusion about both big heads and oversized suitcases.

 

[Leeward Rail]

After reading all the comments to the thread, it's pretty obvious that non of y'all know the first thing about MSD portapotties

As far as o know...
@Gene Neill has an thetford MSD portapottie now. He apparently looking to switch to a full MSD setup.

Like a steamer trunk as luggage, it is too big to pick up and thus makes no sense to me

You dont need to carry a MSD portapottie. You install a pump out deck fitting to empty it. The idea is that you dont need a big waste tank for water and sewage mixture. A 5 gallon MSD portapottie uses less flush water so a 5 gallon waste tank is equal to a much larger conventional waste tank.
No need for extra hole for water supply. No big waste tank. Less holes. Just a deck fitting and a vent.

Msd portapottie is no the same as non msd versions

That said, using an MSD portapottie that is plumbed with a cleanout and vent, on a C22, would be a real bear to switch to carrying it as needed. I see it as one or the other unless it's an emergency.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Weight. Although this varies, they typically hold over 5 gallons when full. I cannot lift what will be nearly 50 pounds (sewage plus lower half) out of an awkward location,

You're jumping to conclusions. Although most people who opt for the MSD version choose the 5 gal version to maximize the time between pumpouts, there's no rule requiring anyone to wait till it's full to empty it...and both portable and MSD versions are available in both 5 gal and 2.6 gal sizes. 23-25 lbs--considerably less unless it's full--is fairly easy to carry off the boat, whether it's the portapotty tank or a shop vac. And because a lot of marinas don't allow portapotty dumping in their toilets, a shop vac to take it home can come in handy.

--Peggie

 

[LakeShark]

My C22 had the MSD setup for the porta potti put in by a PO. I would not do it as we use the V Berth for sleeping and who wants the poop pipe at their nose but i'm not sure it really affected resale for me much. There is a deckplate for pumpout and a couple holes in the bulkhead for hoses to run through but to be honest I removed all the plumbing and went with a better porta potti. Not sure after pumping out 50 gal waste tanks on larger boats that its worth it for the little 5 gal porta potti. Its a small boat and the walk of shame is not all that bad. just my 2 cents.

Side note I have the 5 gal dometic MSD currently and the swap from handheld to pump out compatibility is not swappable in any easy way in my boat. With the tight space you have to choose one and go with it as access to fittings is a bit tough.

 

[LakeShark]

@Peggie Hall HeadMistress the shop vac plan has me conjuring up all sorts of bad. The air exhaust would be putrid and since the lid on my shop vac tends to come off easy I can only imagine the nastiness that would happen when I spilled it. Nope I'll do the walk with the lower tank and if the marina wont allow dumping Ill trailer home and deal with it there. If you can lift a 5 gallon bucket of water you can move the tank even if its full. Besides nothing makes the neighbors love you more than seeing you clean up your toilet with the garden hose in the front yard after a week long cruise (after its emptied of course)

Edit and side note: The 5 gallon lasts our family of 5 about 4 days with normal use and if there are camp toilets available on shore from an anchorage we get 7 days or more easily.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Side note I have the 5 gal dometic MSD currently and the swap from handheld to pump out compatibility is not swappable in any easy way in my boat. With the tight space you have to choose one and go

yup. Pita to connect it when clean and new. Dont want to even think about having to do it when the tank isnt clean.

I still say the best option is the pulpit..
I believe that Peggy mentioned that as long as you go drectly into the water it usually legal due to the way the laws are written.

 

[thinwater]

You're jumping to conclusions. Although most people who opt for the MSD version choose the 5 gal version to maximize the time between pumpouts, there's no rule requiring anyone to wait till it's full to empty it...and both portable and MSD versions are available in both 5 gal and 2.6 gal sizes. 23-25 lbs--considerably less unless it's full--is fairly easy to carry off the boat, whether it's the portapotty tank or a shop vac. And because a lot of marinas don't allow portapotty dumping in their toilets, a shop vac to take it home can come in handy.

--Peggie

No, not really.

If something can be filled, it will be, occasionally. Really. Calling a shop vac "handy" to take it home is what we'll have to call an agreed upon stretch.

Just extra work IMO, and I explained the reasons for my opinions, based on many years of using portable heads. I did not represent them as facts.

 

[LeeandRick]

On some group cruise I was planning in Ontario the organizer explained that even a MSD portable had to be hard plumbed and installed in such a manner as not to be easily removable. I opted to go somewhere else.

For those of you who want the convenience of a pump out model, just put a deck fitting in and a quick connect hose from down below stick it in and start sucking.

 

[rgranger]

Shop Vac.......! At some point you have to open that bad boy up and clean it...
( I can't believe I'm the first person on this thread to use the poop emoji)

 

[Leeward Rail]

This whole thread is getting off topic.

I may be wrong but based on the following quotes from the OP, Gene is talking about a conventional plumbed MSD. Not a portapottie or a MSD portapottie that is plumbed ?

self-contained MSD potty on our C22

bunch of big holes in the boat. Two holes through the deck, four through the liner, and one through the hull

Thats more holes than you need for plumbing a Dometic MSD which only needs a vent and cleanout. 1 in deck+liner, 1 in hull+liner., 2 more in liner.

Shop Vac.......! At some point you have to open that bad boy up and clean it...

Hey man.. Can I borrow your shop vac ? Naw...you can leave the bag in it. I am picking up solids.