Move standing rigging to outside the toe rail

Status
Not open for further replies.
Feb 17, 2004
268
Hunter 30_74-83 Lower Salford, PA / Tolchester,MD marina
On my 1979 Hunter 30' there is soft spots around the standing rigging. In conversation with another sailor of a vintage boat, he suggested I move the standing rigging to outside the toe rail, and use stainless steel bolts to go through the hull to attach to fabricated brackets on the inside of the boat.

This would be a once and done, as you would not have to seal and reseal at the deck entry points, plus you would pick-up walk arround room.

The first question is what this would do to the stability of the mast and the forces that full sails and a 150 jib place on it.

Have to admit, I am intrigued by the thought.

Any body ever do this to their Thirty? Any thoughts, other than your nuts to think about this?

Thanks
Ian
s/v Meant to Be
79 Hunter 30
 
Oct 3, 2006
1,029
Hunter 29.5 Toms River
I can't say I've done this but - a wider shroud base will almost certainly be stronger, provided that your hull attachment point is within inches of a bulkhead.
-you may need to adjust your spreaders so that they properly "bisect" the shroud angle.

On the Hunter 23, the factory switched form "inboard" shrouds, (chain plates on deck going to threaded rod connecting the chain plate to the bulkhead) to "outboard" shrouds, which involved a chain plate glassed to the hull.
The downside is sheeting angle to the headsail, unless you use inboard and outboard shrouds. Also, why not have the plates bolted to the outside of the hull, and back-up plates on the inside?
 

Rick D

.
Jun 14, 2008
7,187
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Maybe Not So Simple...

...as it first appears. Some consulting might first be in order. I had a boat neighbor that was convinced bringing the shrouds to the rail on his Catalina 30 would be the way to go for offshore work he planned. They failed and the rig came down in moderate weather.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Ian:

Hunter has done this on later model boats, but they are engineered for this. There is material bonded into the hull structure that goes from one side of the boat to the other to pick up the load.

Your Cherubini has the load taken up by the structure inside the boat where the chainplates are connected.

I suggest that you address the problem at hand and fix it properly before you destroy the boat. The issue of the soft spots needs to be fixed anyway. Once you have a fix, you can reseal the chain plates with some caulking and butyl tape.
 
Feb 17, 2004
268
Hunter 30_74-83 Lower Salford, PA / Tolchester,MD marina
Thanks all. So much for that idea. Back to drilling and filling. Get out the lifecaulk.

ian
 
Jan 22, 2008
34
Hunter 37C McCormick, SC
I also was considering this on my 37C. After asking many people, and researching designs, decided against it. My previous boat was a 30'. The load factors from the shrouds are angle specific, both from the mast, and to each other. That is why the designers make the big bucks.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
It's not a bad idea and as has been said many other models have this (including mine, though often I wish mine was like yours). The one drawback is headsail sheeting angle and constantly flipping the skirt of the jib inside the lifelines and then having it lean on the shrouds and turnbuckles on almost every point of wind, not just close-hauled.

My H25 is 'reinforced' (if you can call it that) with 1" x 25" plates spanning five of the toerail boltholes under the flange. That's it. The washers on the 1/4-20 bolts aren't even oversized. (I plan to upgrade all this very shortly anyway, but the basic idea will be the same.) But this is a smaller boat (255 ft of sail). By comparison the Cherubini 44 is fitted with u-bolts through the flange and then the flange is supported with a massive L-angle of SS or aluminum and then a 65"-long web of sold fiberglass down to the hull which takes up a lot of room and inhibits access to-- you guessed it-- the u-bolt fasteners. So there is a trade-off.

Your H30, lying between the two, could benefit from an SS L-angle of about 1-1/2" x 3/16" on the outside, bolted via 5/16" hex-heads and 5200 to the toerail, and another inside as a backing plate (roll it so you can get to the nuts inside!). It should be all right so long as the main bulkhead is adequately fastened (with 'glass or 5200) to the hull and deck at that location (you will need a 2" mousehole under the flange to slide the L-angle through). Remember that a stiff, mechanically-strong structure is worth more than sheer weight and size of the component parts.

The truth is that that toerail, if properly fastened and bedded everywhere else, isn't going to give up the ghost and pop off (nor even bend). Imagine how strong that 3-D shape is when held securely in a 3-D situation (crown, sheerline and curve of deck all at once). You'd break the wire or rip the fittings out of the (aged) spar before you broke the toerail.

(I don't know what the guy whose Catalina failed did, but I suspect his fasteners were all subpar and he had no backing plates.)

My only regret with this would be in losing pointing ability; and if you have a roller-furler and non-adjustable backstay you could become like all those other older-Hunter owners who complain their boats won't point so well 'any more', when it's all due to how they have 'modified' or maintained their own boats.

The best thing of course is to properly maintain, and fix when necessary, the structure you have; and you will benefit from good design, good seamanship, and even the good discipline it takes to keep up after it.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Two things for tcbilgerat:

1. The angle issue is less important than you'd think. SS and aluminum will both work-harden into their desired shapes under the load; you have then to readjust your shroud tension and will find it won't ever move again. I designed an L-angle 'chainplate' to replace the flimsy thing on top of my toerail and included welded gussets for the upper-shroud holes to keep it from bending backwards in line with the shrouds-- the welds will be strong enough for even a lot more load than it will get; but the flimsy one in place now shows no sign of having ever done that. You'd be surprised what really happens and what remains in just theory.

2. Whatever gave you the idea that boat designers make 'the big bucks'? HAHAHAHAHAHHA :)
 
May 31, 2007
776
Hunter 37 cutter Blind River
Moving the shrouds to the outside will greatly reduce the compression on the mast. Besides reinforcing the hull appropriately at the chainplate points, you will also need to lengthen the spreaders and likely the shrouds as well. A huge amount of work!

Drilling, filling and 5200 aren't enough to repair what you have already. The top skin of glass needs to be removed, the old core dug out and replaced and a new skin laminated to the surface. Remember, nothing is going to stick to any base that is wet. You might just end up chasing wet core through the entire deck. That is not such a bad thing as you will end up knowing exactly what you have and the rebuild can be done such that the new core will never get wet. It is not such an intimidating process once you get started.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
I respect what Sandpiper said about cutting out and recoring the deck, because that is what the 'textbooks' tell you; but there is a much, much simpler way to do this. Rather than modify the rigging (and Sand is correct in that the shroud leads will change a little, possibly necessitating new wire rope assemblies), the best thing is to fix what you have. I have had great success, on my own boat, others' boats, and several Cherubini 44s, in drilling what I call 'termite holes' (like the guy drills in your basement to shoot in the bug-killer) in the deck and filling it with WEST epoxy. This is what I would call the definitive solution; and best of all it's easy and cheap. I have commented on this a few times and if you cannot find it in the archives here I can reiterate the details if you ask me.

Removing the chainplates is key; start there. They should be reinstalled with 5200. Use NEW fasteners in 316 SS (not 18-8, which is junk these days). You should be able to tell now if the slots in the deck have been in the right place all along; if they're not now is the time to remedy that. Having marked it I would just fill in the whole area with new wood, 'glass, or WEST epoxy (and you can use wood fibers or silica powder in it) and plan on recutting new slots when it's filled.

As far as water, I accidently filled two or three spots that had water in them. To my amazement the epoxy pushed the water up to the holes in the deck surface and I got what looked like runny baby vomit oozing out for a while; then it ceased and the rest was all epoxy. Do not make this error, however. Hook your shop-vac up to a few trial holes and run it like crazy. Some people drill weep holes in the headliner and run a dehumidifier inside the boat. I did that till I knew I had a dry deck (the water I had was from overnight rain in holes I had drilled and left open). Just be sure to fill the underside holes before pumping epoxy into the voids.

I did this exact same thing on the C44 (hull #6) we had in the shop a few years ago. It is absolutely amazing how strong, stiff, and workable the result is. Compare this to cutting out the core and replacing it-- and why would you replace what already has been proved to go wrong? Old core has no value to me unless it's already trustworthy (as in my cockpit floor). My H25's deck has very little intact core left-- it's almost all epoxy, at least in the hardware areas. And I swear you could hold a hip-hop dance party on it.

Keep us posted with your decision and repair progress!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.