I am about to buy my first sailboat and I really don’t know that much about them. What I am looking for is the boat equivalent to a Land Rover Defender, a G-Wagen, or a Landcruiser. I am looking for something extremely robust, simple, and durable. Something requiring very low maintenance and that will last forever. I would like a boat that almost has an industrial heavy-duty utilitarian sturdiness. I am not interested in aesthetics or speed, at all, just reliability, longevity, and ruggedness. I am thinking around 35-45”. I will be living aboard it long-term. I also want the option of making very long voyages, perhaps, one day, a trans-pacific crossing. In the near future, I will be going up and down the West coast from Vancouver to Southern California. I feel that an overbuilt steel of aluminum boat will best meet these criteria. Is there one boat builder and model that stands out as the best to meet my needs? Is there a boat that is the equivalent to a Land Rover Defender or a Leica camera? Lee llaskin@hotmail.com
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charter first
Don't buy while you "don't know much about sail boats." You will not buy what you want/need in the long term. For example, I don't know of any production-built steel or aluminum boats. They are all custom or at least semi-custom. In the 35 to 45 ft. range, most are likely to be home built, and the quality of the welds, questionable. Custom-built steel are likely to be in the 50 ft. and up range. Most boats sailing the waters of the world today are GRP. Not all of these are built to cross the Pacific. If money is no object, then there are boats like Swan and Cabo Rico. Develop an appreciation for asthetics of boats. A boat is a lot of work, if you like the way your boat looks, you will be that much more likely to put up with the work. It also feels good when someone tells you "that looks good." Best suggestion is to do some chartering, til you figure out what you want and what you don't - it will be different than what I want, or even what someone else crossing the Pacific will want. (Are you going to be in shallow water like the Bahamas, or are you going to stay in the deep California waters? Draft is an issue in Florida - less so in CA.) Do you want all of the gadgets, or are you going to go a-la Pardey, and do without things most of us depend on? What is the budget? You can probably find a Southern Cross 28 for 30 or 40K, or a swan for several hundred thousand. Do you want a keel or deck-stepped mast. Makes a difference if you are ever dismasted - no consensus among designers which is better and some designers provide drawings for both on a single model.
Don't buy while you "don't know much about sail boats." You will not buy what you want/need in the long term. For example, I don't know of any production-built steel or aluminum boats. They are all custom or at least semi-custom. In the 35 to 45 ft. range, most are likely to be home built, and the quality of the welds, questionable. Custom-built steel are likely to be in the 50 ft. and up range. Most boats sailing the waters of the world today are GRP. Not all of these are built to cross the Pacific. If money is no object, then there are boats like Swan and Cabo Rico. Develop an appreciation for asthetics of boats. A boat is a lot of work, if you like the way your boat looks, you will be that much more likely to put up with the work. It also feels good when someone tells you "that looks good." Best suggestion is to do some chartering, til you figure out what you want and what you don't - it will be different than what I want, or even what someone else crossing the Pacific will want. (Are you going to be in shallow water like the Bahamas, or are you going to stay in the deep California waters? Draft is an issue in Florida - less so in CA.) Do you want all of the gadgets, or are you going to go a-la Pardey, and do without things most of us depend on? What is the budget? You can probably find a Southern Cross 28 for 30 or 40K, or a swan for several hundred thousand. Do you want a keel or deck-stepped mast. Makes a difference if you are ever dismasted - no consensus among designers which is better and some designers provide drawings for both on a single model.
Steel doesn't last forever
Must steel boat dont last as long as most fiberglass hulls. Steel is only better lasting when you hit the rocks and even then running onto a reef or rocks can sink any boat. With that in mind I'd pick aluminum as the best sailboat material for reef bashing rock smashing and long life do to lower corrosion rates. In this day of GPS and wonderfully accurate paper charts for the whole world I'd get a sturdy fiberglass boat and plan to avoid running aground on reefs or rocks. This does mean you won't hit an occasional rock or run aground when a narrow channel shifts but most grounding like that are not fatal to the boat. In the early sixty's through the 70's fiberglass was not as well understood as it is today so the boats were rediculusly overbuilt. Many of those old boats are still around and the hulls are still stronger than anything else made today. Keep in mind for ice breaking in a fiberglass boat you need to add some metal to the bow at the waterline to keep skim ice from cuting the gelcoat and causing extra maintenance. A friend recently bought an old Morgan 40. the full keel makes it very strong and it had a pretty shallow draft for a boat that size. Long keels dont turn around the bouys as well as racing fin keels but they sail just fine for cruising and are very steady sailing boats.
Must steel boat dont last as long as most fiberglass hulls. Steel is only better lasting when you hit the rocks and even then running onto a reef or rocks can sink any boat. With that in mind I'd pick aluminum as the best sailboat material for reef bashing rock smashing and long life do to lower corrosion rates. In this day of GPS and wonderfully accurate paper charts for the whole world I'd get a sturdy fiberglass boat and plan to avoid running aground on reefs or rocks. This does mean you won't hit an occasional rock or run aground when a narrow channel shifts but most grounding like that are not fatal to the boat. In the early sixty's through the 70's fiberglass was not as well understood as it is today so the boats were rediculusly overbuilt. Many of those old boats are still around and the hulls are still stronger than anything else made today. Keep in mind for ice breaking in a fiberglass boat you need to add some metal to the bow at the waterline to keep skim ice from cuting the gelcoat and causing extra maintenance. A friend recently bought an old Morgan 40. the full keel makes it very strong and it had a pretty shallow draft for a boat that size. Long keels dont turn around the bouys as well as racing fin keels but they sail just fine for cruising and are very steady sailing boats.
aluminum suffers from electrolysis
Even if you are careful, and faulty ground in a marina or on the boat next to you can cause problems. Lots of zincs!
Even if you are careful, and faulty ground in a marina or on the boat next to you can cause problems. Lots of zincs!
Hans Christiian
These boats look like tugboats!!! Seem to be extremely heavily made. As others have mentioned you may want to look around before buying. Light beamy boats are faster under most conditions. If you get too heavy in a light wind area you may want to buy a Trawler. I am not being sarcastic. I've met several people who were very happy living on a trawler. If I wanted to live aboard and have all the comforts I would buy a trawler or houseboat. Unfortunately I am a sailor and soon to be cruiser. Carefully consider what you want out of a boat and how and where you will use it. I've seen so many world cruisers sitting at docks all green and mouldy. All bought with the intention of sailing around the world. It goes like this... Buy a heavy boat that can go anywhere but isn't fun to sail,mostly work. A huge investment. You can't go for several years but this thing is not fun so soon you decide to play golf but can't sell the boat for what you have invested. After several years of slip fees the unused boat is green and the diesel won't work below deck smells real bad. Finally sell at a huge loss. Of course powerboats can have the same fate.
These boats look like tugboats!!! Seem to be extremely heavily made. As others have mentioned you may want to look around before buying. Light beamy boats are faster under most conditions. If you get too heavy in a light wind area you may want to buy a Trawler. I am not being sarcastic. I've met several people who were very happy living on a trawler. If I wanted to live aboard and have all the comforts I would buy a trawler or houseboat. Unfortunately I am a sailor and soon to be cruiser. Carefully consider what you want out of a boat and how and where you will use it. I've seen so many world cruisers sitting at docks all green and mouldy. All bought with the intention of sailing around the world. It goes like this... Buy a heavy boat that can go anywhere but isn't fun to sail,mostly work. A huge investment. You can't go for several years but this thing is not fun so soon you decide to play golf but can't sell the boat for what you have invested. After several years of slip fees the unused boat is green and the diesel won't work below deck smells real bad. Finally sell at a huge loss. Of course powerboats can have the same fate.
Reef bashing with an aluminum boat?
People might feel that an aluminum boat is METAL, therefore can go reef-bashing at will, but I might remind them that Aluminum has SEAMS and they are VERY PRONE to leak if they are not treated well. Reef bashing would definitely get the owner of an aluminum boat as wet as of a fiberglass owner... and aluminum is probably harder to fix in the middle of nowhere... fiberglass emergency repair kits do not involve welders, heavy tools, gas canisters, etc. Steve
People might feel that an aluminum boat is METAL, therefore can go reef-bashing at will, but I might remind them that Aluminum has SEAMS and they are VERY PRONE to leak if they are not treated well. Reef bashing would definitely get the owner of an aluminum boat as wet as of a fiberglass owner... and aluminum is probably harder to fix in the middle of nowhere... fiberglass emergency repair kits do not involve welders, heavy tools, gas canisters, etc. Steve
Listen to Debra
Her advice is good. Take your time with this decision. Sail on a number of different boats. Get out on the ocean with an experienced skipper to make sure you really like the experience. The trip to Vancouver to Southern CA is anything but a cakewalk. The trip back is a difficult slog at best. Best of luck. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
Her advice is good. Take your time with this decision. Sail on a number of different boats. Get out on the ocean with an experienced skipper to make sure you really like the experience. The trip to Vancouver to Southern CA is anything but a cakewalk. The trip back is a difficult slog at best. Best of luck. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
You may be putting the cart before the horse
I have owned 2 classic LandRovers and know where you are coming from. The aluminum sidings never rusted although I can't remember ever washing my car. Also, the chassis was overbuilt so heavily (and the capsize ratio so low) as to give a very safe feeling in traffic as well as terrain. At the same time, however, I never misled myself into believing that these heavy cars were necessarily safe in all conditions. First of all, the passenger cage was not constructed strong enough to survive several types of rollover. Secondly, the wheel suspension was very oldfashioned and not tracking as well as even the simplest Toyota. Also, my aversion to maintenance was primarily cosmetic, I made sure that brakes, tires, drive train, lubrication and so on were carefully maintained. With boats it is more or less the same deal. If you buy a Colin-Archer pedigreed heavy vessel such as a Westsail, Ingrid, CT40 or Hans Christian, the hull is likely to survive most of us by several decades. However, without painstaking attention to standing and running rigging, winches, steering, navigational equipment and safety systems, to name just a few, both the boat and you are likely to come to grief pretty fast. In short: you will always have to take care of her. It's never the other way around. A heavy vessel will not take care of you. In fact, along with many crabs along the way, it might one day crush your hand, foot or worse. To become a sailor who knows how to take care of his vessel, rather than become afraid of her, you will need to put many miles under your keel. Unfortunately, this is exactly where the rub is. Heavily built vessels do not sail well in light or moderate winds and most are consequently sitting in harbors all over the world, waiting for that one great weather window that will allow them to make the next crossing or passage. If you don't believe me, just drive South till you get to Puerto Vallarta or Mazatlan and talk to the wives of the skippers of the great-looking heavy vessels there. Many will admit to you that the skipper was planning to circumnavigate the Pacific or the globe and that they left San Diego 1 or 2 years ago...... This is not to say that heavy vessels are poor sailers. I have been put to shame by crabcrushers with experienced skippers time and again. As long as the wind is in the upper teens and above and the course is not too sharp on the wind some of these great-looking lassies can wiggle their sterns at many a lighter vessel. However, the skipper will have to slap on a whole lot of canvas and - believe me - sailing a heavy vessel at 25-30 degrees heel in a gale is no job for beginning or fainthearted sailors. The story is quite different, however, when it is necessary to sail against the Trades. That's why most of these ladies have big auxiliary engines. The long and the short is; unless you do have a lifetime to teach yourself how to sail a heavy vessel properly (and finally get to have real fun doing it) you are probably better off to first learn the finer points of ocean sailing on a lighter built vessel. Now, if you would be able to spend well over half a million US $ on purchasing your vessel you could have your cake AND eat it by buying a vessel constructed with plenty of weightsaving superstrong hi-tech materials. This gives you the equivalent of a Bradley fighting vehicle instead of a WWII Sherman tank..... Have fun, Flying Dutchman
I have owned 2 classic LandRovers and know where you are coming from. The aluminum sidings never rusted although I can't remember ever washing my car. Also, the chassis was overbuilt so heavily (and the capsize ratio so low) as to give a very safe feeling in traffic as well as terrain. At the same time, however, I never misled myself into believing that these heavy cars were necessarily safe in all conditions. First of all, the passenger cage was not constructed strong enough to survive several types of rollover. Secondly, the wheel suspension was very oldfashioned and not tracking as well as even the simplest Toyota. Also, my aversion to maintenance was primarily cosmetic, I made sure that brakes, tires, drive train, lubrication and so on were carefully maintained. With boats it is more or less the same deal. If you buy a Colin-Archer pedigreed heavy vessel such as a Westsail, Ingrid, CT40 or Hans Christian, the hull is likely to survive most of us by several decades. However, without painstaking attention to standing and running rigging, winches, steering, navigational equipment and safety systems, to name just a few, both the boat and you are likely to come to grief pretty fast. In short: you will always have to take care of her. It's never the other way around. A heavy vessel will not take care of you. In fact, along with many crabs along the way, it might one day crush your hand, foot or worse. To become a sailor who knows how to take care of his vessel, rather than become afraid of her, you will need to put many miles under your keel. Unfortunately, this is exactly where the rub is. Heavily built vessels do not sail well in light or moderate winds and most are consequently sitting in harbors all over the world, waiting for that one great weather window that will allow them to make the next crossing or passage. If you don't believe me, just drive South till you get to Puerto Vallarta or Mazatlan and talk to the wives of the skippers of the great-looking heavy vessels there. Many will admit to you that the skipper was planning to circumnavigate the Pacific or the globe and that they left San Diego 1 or 2 years ago...... This is not to say that heavy vessels are poor sailers. I have been put to shame by crabcrushers with experienced skippers time and again. As long as the wind is in the upper teens and above and the course is not too sharp on the wind some of these great-looking lassies can wiggle their sterns at many a lighter vessel. However, the skipper will have to slap on a whole lot of canvas and - believe me - sailing a heavy vessel at 25-30 degrees heel in a gale is no job for beginning or fainthearted sailors. The story is quite different, however, when it is necessary to sail against the Trades. That's why most of these ladies have big auxiliary engines. The long and the short is; unless you do have a lifetime to teach yourself how to sail a heavy vessel properly (and finally get to have real fun doing it) you are probably better off to first learn the finer points of ocean sailing on a lighter built vessel. Now, if you would be able to spend well over half a million US $ on purchasing your vessel you could have your cake AND eat it by buying a vessel constructed with plenty of weightsaving superstrong hi-tech materials. This gives you the equivalent of a Bradley fighting vehicle instead of a WWII Sherman tank..... Have fun, Flying Dutchman
Definitely a Ferro Cement!!
This is what you want - a "Ferro"! You can run it up on the beach and it'll still be there in 20 years. Not only is it rugged but there are some large live-aboard ones out there for not much money. Some are used and I've seen some advertised in various stages of completion with some assembly required for cheap. On the other hand, if you're just learning about boats then, as has been mentioned, sign up for some sailing lessons. Read some books about how to sail. If you're serious about learning how to sail but can't/don't want to spend any money but willing to put some sweat equity into it, then sign up for crew at a marina where boats are raced. Realize that some boats don't want a greenhorn but persevere and you'll find a boat. A demonstrated desire and ability to learn will help big-time. The next step might be getting a cheap little "beater" for one or two boat bucks that can fit on the car rooftop (El Toro?) or be towed (open 12 to 16 footer, or one with a little cuddy 16 to say 18 feet). Fix it up and learn about maintenance. If this cost's too much or is too much work then get out of boating. Boat ownership costs will increase with displacement. Boats require CONSTANT maintenance and it takes lots of: knowledge + skill + time + money. My wife thought it would be cheaper but the maintenance costs on our 35 footer costs MUCH MORE than my plane did and we bought the boat new! So, if you think boats are CHEAP, think again. As the old saying goes, "You can pay me now, you can pay me later." Buy an old run-down boat and the costs will be even more: $deferred maintenance + $regular maintenance. If you're energetic, a fast learner, and willing to put the time and money into it that it requires you'll soon recognize you'll want a proper sailing vessel, a "little yacht", that you can be proud of that will reflect a positive character and not some derelict scow that someone would dread seeing come into their marina. Might have been a little bit though here so I hope you see this in a helpful way - Good Luck in your decision. "Success in life [or in boating] isn't so much about the smart decisions we make as about the dumb decisions we don't make." - JN
This is what you want - a "Ferro"! You can run it up on the beach and it'll still be there in 20 years. Not only is it rugged but there are some large live-aboard ones out there for not much money. Some are used and I've seen some advertised in various stages of completion with some assembly required for cheap. On the other hand, if you're just learning about boats then, as has been mentioned, sign up for some sailing lessons. Read some books about how to sail. If you're serious about learning how to sail but can't/don't want to spend any money but willing to put some sweat equity into it, then sign up for crew at a marina where boats are raced. Realize that some boats don't want a greenhorn but persevere and you'll find a boat. A demonstrated desire and ability to learn will help big-time. The next step might be getting a cheap little "beater" for one or two boat bucks that can fit on the car rooftop (El Toro?) or be towed (open 12 to 16 footer, or one with a little cuddy 16 to say 18 feet). Fix it up and learn about maintenance. If this cost's too much or is too much work then get out of boating. Boat ownership costs will increase with displacement. Boats require CONSTANT maintenance and it takes lots of: knowledge + skill + time + money. My wife thought it would be cheaper but the maintenance costs on our 35 footer costs MUCH MORE than my plane did and we bought the boat new! So, if you think boats are CHEAP, think again. As the old saying goes, "You can pay me now, you can pay me later." Buy an old run-down boat and the costs will be even more: $deferred maintenance + $regular maintenance. If you're energetic, a fast learner, and willing to put the time and money into it that it requires you'll soon recognize you'll want a proper sailing vessel, a "little yacht", that you can be proud of that will reflect a positive character and not some derelict scow that someone would dread seeing come into their marina. Might have been a little bit though here so I hope you see this in a helpful way - Good Luck in your decision. "Success in life [or in boating] isn't so much about the smart decisions we make as about the dumb decisions we don't make." - JN
Thanks for the kind remark, Fred
No, I am not a pro, just a Corinthian. However, every season in Vanuatu I have the privilege of sailing in convoy with several heavy vessels, some of which skippered by pros, as we visit the outer islands there for our medical Project. My good friend Allan Meyer, who skippers the 75 ft, 70+ ton, steel schooner "Siome" (which he built himself in 1984) is probably the best skipper I have seen at work. He moves that big vessel around the harbors and anchorages as easily as most cruisers move their dinghies. Yet, there is very little room for error when that enormous anchor gets winched in or the boom sweeps the deck during a planned gybe. Thus, I have come to treasure the occasional trips on "Siome", e.g. when he needs to drop anchor in a little hole between the reefs at Maskelyne island to drop off or pick up our away team. One is never too old to learn new tricks in this business. Flying Dutchman
No, I am not a pro, just a Corinthian. However, every season in Vanuatu I have the privilege of sailing in convoy with several heavy vessels, some of which skippered by pros, as we visit the outer islands there for our medical Project. My good friend Allan Meyer, who skippers the 75 ft, 70+ ton, steel schooner "Siome" (which he built himself in 1984) is probably the best skipper I have seen at work. He moves that big vessel around the harbors and anchorages as easily as most cruisers move their dinghies. Yet, there is very little room for error when that enormous anchor gets winched in or the boom sweeps the deck during a planned gybe. Thus, I have come to treasure the occasional trips on "Siome", e.g. when he needs to drop anchor in a little hole between the reefs at Maskelyne island to drop off or pick up our away team. One is never too old to learn new tricks in this business. Flying Dutchman
Henk, well put.
I think you nailed all the points. One thing Lee must keep telling himself is that all things being equal (cost, waterline length, etc) "all boats are a compromise". The trick is finding the right compromise that will work for your type of sailing/cruising.
I think you nailed all the points. One thing Lee must keep telling himself is that all things being equal (cost, waterline length, etc) "all boats are a compromise". The trick is finding the right compromise that will work for your type of sailing/cruising.
Most Rugged Boat
The best advice I could give you is to vist the plant where there built and ask alot of questions. I'm convinced you would be disappointed after you make the purchase if you bought something that didn't perform well. Its no fun sailing a barge. You need to look at performace as well as how well its built. Fiber glass is hard to beat. Lasts forever, strong, can be repaired easily... I almost bought a boat years ago for your reasons. Someone talked me out of it and I've been forever glad. Like everything else in life its all needs to be in balance. Comfortable inside and good performance, Got to have both in a sailboat... Good luck Steve
The best advice I could give you is to vist the plant where there built and ask alot of questions. I'm convinced you would be disappointed after you make the purchase if you bought something that didn't perform well. Its no fun sailing a barge. You need to look at performace as well as how well its built. Fiber glass is hard to beat. Lasts forever, strong, can be repaired easily... I almost bought a boat years ago for your reasons. Someone talked me out of it and I've been forever glad. Like everything else in life its all needs to be in balance. Comfortable inside and good performance, Got to have both in a sailboat... Good luck Steve
Speaking of "westsnails" here is a link
to a picture of the "Satori" the real boat that was portrayed in the movie "the Perfect Storm". http://world.std.com/~kent/satori/Pic1.html One thing the book or the movie doesn't tell you is that the Satori survived the storm intact and was later found on a beach in Maryland. The boat is now out and about sailing. I don't think I'd want a westsail. But if I was on the ocean and there was a hurricane or huge storm then I think thats one of the boats I'd want to be on, otherwise I'll stick to my moderatly displaced sailboat. More on the Satori http://world.std.com/~kent/satori/
to a picture of the "Satori" the real boat that was portrayed in the movie "the Perfect Storm". http://world.std.com/~kent/satori/Pic1.html One thing the book or the movie doesn't tell you is that the Satori survived the storm intact and was later found on a beach in Maryland. The boat is now out and about sailing. I don't think I'd want a westsail. But if I was on the ocean and there was a hurricane or huge storm then I think thats one of the boats I'd want to be on, otherwise I'll stick to my moderatly displaced sailboat. More on the Satori http://world.std.com/~kent/satori/
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