Material Composition at the bottom of the Keel

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sep 26, 2011
228
Hunter 33_77-83 Cedar Creek Sailing Center, NJ
I have the shoal draft H33. Does anyone know what I would be drilling into from the tip underside? Is it fiberglass filled with lead shot or is it molded lead without a fiberglass casing? I was thinking about adding a bronze end plate (end-cap) to the tip. I've attached some gifs of the profiles and end-cap concept put forward by Ted Brewer some time ago and should improve laminar flow over the keel span and reduce drag vortices.
 

Attachments

Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Except that it might have years of built-up anti-fouling and possibly barrier-coat under that. If you had seen my keel before it was soda-blasted you would have thought it was encapsulated in fiberglass. Eight or nine years of anti-fouling despite sanding every spring gets to be very thick. Then it starts to flake off, like six to twelve inch flakes.
 
Oct 11, 2011
1
Hunter Cherubini 37C Fort Lauderdale
Hello,
Sounds like a project I have been thinking of for quite a while,
I'd be interested in more info on your project,
I wonder if it would work on our 37C?
Has anyone else done this?
from an engineering perspective and flow dynamics it seems a no-brainer
cheers
Luke
 
Sep 26, 2011
228
Hunter 33_77-83 Cedar Creek Sailing Center, NJ
The bottom was recently sand-blasted and barrier coated (including bottom of keel). Its in good shape. I just need to remove the dried out ablative, rough up a little and then epoxy the end-cap to the tip of the keel, and reinforce the attachment with 3 or 4 layers of 6-8" wide glass tape along the full chord length. The end-cap will be a fiberglass board (not trying to add weight or electrolysis) that I will either make or buy. I was considering making the end-cap out of 1/4" bronze plate but then i would be adding about 100 lbs to the tip of the keel and that requires fasteners and drilling into the lead. With fiberglass, I can trim it to shape after its mounted with a grinding drum. Then prime and paint the bottom with ablative at splash time. Not too difficult (in theory ;-).
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Even with your diagrams I cannot picture the end result. I think though that I am glad my keel is standard. How would that "wing" have worked when backing out of those groundings in the ICW?
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
grounding

Yes what will happen if you run aground and we always say no way will I run aground until the first one happens,I ran aground 2 times in one day in Florida and before had not run aground until in NC and than 2 times in Florida.
Nick
 
Jan 2, 2008
547
Hunter 33 (Cherubini design Forked River, Barnegat Bay, NJ
As shallow as Barnegat Bay is I would be leery of adding a flat plate to the bottom of the keel, if that is what you are considering. I have had days where I have touched down (we don't ground so much as "bounce") several times. Mostly inattention but it is easy to do. The keel is solid lead, but I believe they used a skim of gel coat to make it pretty.
 
Sep 26, 2011
228
Hunter 33_77-83 Cedar Creek Sailing Center, NJ
It's just an idea I've wanted to try. It will probably have to wait until next year anyway. I have enough to do to get the admiral's quarter (with new holding tanks) in order. Sigh...
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
No winged keel

In his excellent book, 'All This And Sailing Too', Olin Stephens criticized modern yacht designers for employing what he considered race-only design features to cruising-only boats. (By 'cruising-only' I include modest club racing.) From his context it is very clear he meant the winged keel. I don't think OS ever drew a winged keel unless it was for a race-only boat. The drawbacks, including structural vulnerability, far outweigh the benefits the average cruising sailor would notice or even get even theoretically.

We Cherubini-boat owners are privileged to have very well-designed, well-built and reliable boats conceived in a time of sailing history when decent, well-rounded seaworthiness was to the fore. Later boats (oh, let me see... can you say BENETEAU?) attempted to entice 'performance-minded' buyers (read that: hyper-competitive guys in their 40s and 50s thinking they're still going out for sophomore football) by offering racy-looking boats that are not really fast, comfortable, easy to handle or fit for serious offshore work. The plumb bow dives through waves rather than riding over them. (Who thought of that?) The lack of tumblehome makes for wet side decks. The winged keel, remember, places the same amount of 'lift' to the other side as it does to the good side. It negates itself. At least a straight fin keel does so less so.

The REAL reason for the winged keel on a Beneteau is to provide more weight down low, since the depth of the fin itself is so little, owing to the depth of the hull's 'canoe-body' being so deep, owing to the need to have three double berths, two heads with separate showers, and air-conditioning on a 38-foot boat while still making it theoretically shallow enough (under 5 ft) for the Bahama Bank, which is where most of these boats end up chartering.

And you couldn't possibly fasten a homemade wing to the bottom of the keel without serious structural fiberglass or metal work to make it strong enough to stay on with the forces that are likely from even mild sailing. I suspect that you'd haul the boat at the end of the season and find you'd lost it an untold time ago-- and never missed it or even noticed it'd been there in the first place.

A better idea on your 33, especially because it's shoal draft, is to straighten the after end of the keel with a vertical trailing edge. We did this on our Raider, which used a variation of the H33 deep-draft keel. My dad made a 'cuff' of fiberglass, like a slightly-open manila folder, using a Formica mold, about 42" long, about 8" wide, and just wide enough at the open end to wedge onto the back of the keel, which was angled aft at towards the bottom. As on Peterson's 'Gambare' of 1977 the vertical trailing edge improves straight-line performance and avoids the accumulation of weird tip vortices coming off a pointed bottom corner. We applied it with sheet-metal screws and Bondo on Wednesday, faired it and painted it on Thursday, launched Friday and raced Saturday. Those were the days. (Oh; and we won.)

The cuff did work; the boat seemed to come about more quickly. But it should have been augmented with an intensive underbody redesign including getting rid of the vestigal 'skeg' between the rudder and keel on the R33 which slowed down water passing side-to-side in slow turns and in driving to weather. My H25 appears to be the direct predecessor of the R33 in that the same skeg is much more pronounced. My dad always said he should have eliminated it completely on the R33 (Gambare didn't have it either; but the Raider was designed first!).
 
Jan 2, 2008
547
Hunter 33 (Cherubini design Forked River, Barnegat Bay, NJ
I've spent considerable time looking at that area of the keel. Always felt it might do well with some solid in the aft area. Tanks for the insight JCII. I'm going to talk H33CRich int doing it. I'll provide moral support and wait to see how it works. His wife is going to be thrilled with this!

I have never felt any desire for a wing keel. I spend more than my share of time bouncing off the bottom of Barnegat Bay and my keel is fine for that. If I stop I just pivot the boat and sail or motor off. At absolute worst I hang a bosun chair off the boom with my wife's dainty body hanging in it. She's always REAL thrilled with that. These are tricks you are not likely to get away with with a wing keel.

Raider 33 Andromeda was hauled in a local marina a while back. I spent time comparing it to my H33C. Wanted to know why he was able to walk away from me. The keel appears to me to be the same casting on both boats. It would make good manufacturing sense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.