Mastconfusion, Redesigning a venture 222

[Knot4Sail]

My name is Clinton. I will start off with saying that I have never owned a sailboat. I have owned over 50 powerboats and redesigned quite a few to fit our needs. I learned fiberglass work by trial and error when rebuilding my totaled 2002 Suzuki GSXR. My oldest and I spent a whole winter redoing the plastics and eventually winning bike of the month on GSXR.com.

As for the boat. We think she is a 1975 ( no title) Venture 222. I paid 500.00 for her, brought her home and stepped the mast and made sure that everything was there. We gutted the interior to make room for my family ( three boys and wife). The wife said there wasnt enough room. Came up with a plan after countless hours on the interweb scouring forums that we would cut the top off and redesign the whole boat and try to splash her come early summer 2017. I know that I am going to get some criticism from the die hards on ruining a perfectly good sail boat, but then again it is my boat and i will make it mine.

I will post pics as I can as I work full time and really only have one day on the weekend to work on her, so here you go........

 

[Knot4Sail]

here is some of the work that has been done so far.

 

[Knot4Sail]

some more pics

 

[vhoisington]

You'll need a new compression post under the mast step. Otherwise your probably ok.

One thing to watch as you redesign the boat. By lifting the mast you'll need new standing rigging since the old ones will now be too short. Also, by lifting the sail plan you have moved the center of gravity(cg) of each sail and thus the righting moment will be different. If you always sail with a heavy boat (the whole famil) probably no big deal however, if you are short handed with out a redesign of the sail plan she'll most likely be pretty tender and tend to heal more than normal.

Interesting project, and after some of the other disasters people have brought back to life it will be interesting to see your progress.

Good luck and fair winds

 

[Knot4Sail]

thank you for the response. we were thinking of adding more weight to the keel. we know that we will have to redo our rigging for the mast. My question is do we have to do a center pole like the old one down to the keel housing or can i build a frame around the hull to support the weight and movement?

 

[victorhoisington]

Well it's a venture 22, and for coastal cruising your could build a "frame" but that will take a lot of room to build one strong enough to hold the rigging. It's not just the weight of the mast and sails but also the strain of the rig when loaded while sailing that must be supported. I'm not a sail boat designer or engineer but have learned these things from this forum and lots of reading. You must support the mast vertically. If look at other sail boats you will see either a compression post, a keel stepped mast or a beefy bulkhead supporting the mast.

As to adding extra weight to the keel. That doesn't do as much as you think. Each item. Keel, main sail and jib sail have a center of effort. Creating a balance between the sails cg and the keels cg affects how the boat sails, and it's righting moment. Again, there is lots of math involved and plenty of books that describe the details. Not sure you need to worry a whole lot but something to think about and do at least a little research on when not working on the boat.

These sailboats work off a whole different set of engines (sails and keels) instead of a noisy propeller at the rear but that also changes how they ride and what affects different designs have on how they behave.

Again, you've got a good start. Keep us posted on your progress and good luck.

 

[Jackdaw]

You COULD add a compression arch in place of a post. That would take a lot more engineering to design well. Loads on a pole are much easier to deal with. Here's a Beneteau First 211 with a compression arch.

Don't worry about what your doing to the boat; half of these end up on the wrong end of a chain saw these days. You saved it.

Are you SURE you want to sail?? That's going to be a much better powerboat then sailboat when you are done.... Sailboats look like they do because of the rigging angles.... You're going to have a hard time with those.

 

[Knot4Sail]

thanks for all of the responses. the mast is raised 8.75 inches and forward 2 inches. I can move the mast back the two inches but am hoping that the lifting it wont throw too much off.

 

[BudGates]

My opinion on modifying the boat is "It's your boat it should fit your needs." I also agree with your wife. The V-222 interior is too small for much more than day-sailing. Mine had only one spot where I could sit upright in the cabin.

Raising the mast 8-3/4" will create a little more heeling force but it should still be manageable. Moving it forward, on the other hand will move your center of effort forward possibly creating lee-helm which would be a bad situation.

 

[Knot4Sail]

Update; we will be holding off on our build due to moving to a new house. As for being able to sail this spring, I picked up a venture 22 for next to nothing that we will use till we get the 222 finished. I am hoping to continue the build next spring. Thanks again for all of the input and support.

 

[Daveinet]

I have a few comments. First about the mast compression post. While building an arch under the mast may help, you also ha and outward force on the hall. So as the mast pushes down, the sides of the boat push outward. So if you are to build and arch, it needs to continue down the sides to prevent them from bowing outward. Think about if it collapsed, what all would move. Also I would try to keep the boom as close to the original position as possible, so you don't raise the sail plan. This means cutting off the bottom of your mast. As much as the boom will clear the cabin roof, keep it as low as possible. Try not to mess too much with the sail plan. Small changes make big changes in the boat balance.
Second thing would be windage. Since you just raised the roof, and kept the same width, your new walls are vertical, which makes it more difficult for the wind to pass over the cabin. This means less forward motion, as well as more sideways slip. Your keel keeps the boat from moving sideways, and is designed based on the original sail plan. You are changing the design, which will degrade performance. It is likely the boat will not point as well, especially in heavier winds.

Lastly I'm not trying to suggest that what you are doing will destroy the boat, but there will be some difficulties. Sail balance means that the boat goes through the water with the rudder perfectly straight. If you have to turn the rudder slightly to keep the boat going straight, this will create drag and slow the boat down. As a matter of preference most people prefer just a slight weather helm, such that if anything, the boat naturally wants to turn up into the wind. If the boat wants to turn down wind, it becomes difficult to control, especially in light winds, when you don't have enough flow over the rudder to steer the boat. If you are nearly stopped, and the wind increases, the boat will just turn down wind all on its own, which can be very disconcerting. Normally when you turn, you turn into the wind. If the boat naturally wants to turn leeward, it makes it very difficult to tack. You have to over compensate with the rudder, which causes the boat to slow. You loose speed in the turn, and eventually you stall out and get blown back down wind. I know this because my previous boat had a serious sail balance issue. If the wind wasn't perfect, it was not uncommon to miss a tack. I got in the habit of dumping the jib sheet as soon as a turned the tiller, otherwise there was no way the boat was going to make the tack. It was a scary boat to sail, because as the wind would pick up, you could easily get blown down wind. I was paranoid to sail near other boats unless they were upwind from me. You can correct some of the problem by angling the top of the mast back, but that only helps a small amount. Also I'm going to guess the boat has old baggy sails, which will only make the problem worse.