We discuss this aspect of winter haul-out every fall. I was always a "mast down" guy, but reading posts from other sailors, more experienced than I, has led me to go "mast up" this winter. However, I want to post part of an article published in my marina's newsletter that addresses this issue from the boatyard's point of view. I have included a link to the complete article for those interested in reading the entire thing. Here is the first paragraph, just to give you a feel for the entire article... “More than 20 years ago, competition forced us to withdraw our requirement that sailboats be unstepped for winter storage,” says Paul Muenzinger, General Manager of Brewer Post Road Boat Yard, “but I recently revisited this issue after reading an article in Soundings about some boats that toppled over in high winds at a California yard. Storing with the mast up has gotten worse with the new generation of boats,” he explains. “Many boats today are very light, have a deep draft, and a very tall rig. This leads to an unfavorable leverage situation when the rig is up,” he says. Though windage alone is enough to cause concern, there are a number of reasons to consider unstepping rigs for winter storage. Comments? Paul sv Escape Artist h336 http://www.byy.com/tidewatch/fall2003/TW_Fall03-6.pdf
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HenryV
depends on how it is supported
I don't think their is serious risk of tipping unless the cradle or stand arrangement provides too small a footprint. With the weight of the keel planted in the middle of a well constructed cradle with a reasonable footprint I don't see any reason for concern. I have been at the marina with howling winter winds that were shredding winter covers and downing limbs of nearby trees but there was no evident impact on the stability of the stored boats.
I don't think their is serious risk of tipping unless the cradle or stand arrangement provides too small a footprint. With the weight of the keel planted in the middle of a well constructed cradle with a reasonable footprint I don't see any reason for concern. I have been at the marina with howling winter winds that were shredding winter covers and downing limbs of nearby trees but there was no evident impact on the stability of the stored boats.
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Ed Schenck
Must agree with HenryV.
The rhyme was intentional, feeling good despite the boat coming out tommorow. Our marina is 75% unstepped I would wager. Most of ours are on pavement, a few on very hard ground. It is not possible to position them all head to wind(West) but mine usually is. I have a very good cradle so no worries. The mast and rigging take such a beating when you unstep.
The rhyme was intentional, feeling good despite the boat coming out tommorow. Our marina is 75% unstepped I would wager. Most of ours are on pavement, a few on very hard ground. It is not possible to position them all head to wind(West) but mine usually is. I have a very good cradle so no worries. The mast and rigging take such a beating when you unstep.
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Dave Johndrow
Read that too and tossed it!
For the last 15 years, boats at Pilots Point have stored with the rig standing.( For those not in New England Pilots Point is a Brewer Yard ) I have never seen one topple or be otherwise affected. Certinly there is strain on the rig and hull(how much is the debate). I'll even buy the ice falling from the rig argument (to a degree). But as I read the artical I kept thinging that if they were so worried about my boat then they should reduce the outragous price for dropping the rig ($12.00 ft) for my H33 with a forty two foot stick, thats 504.00 on top of the storage. They charge an additional $6.00 a foot if you leave your rig up. They state that they prop the boat better, yea right. I have stored with the rig up in the past and have had no ill effects. However I don't do it every year. I do agree that there is a need to inspect the rig in detail but I don't think that that is a good enough reason to drop it every year. Common sense should rule here. And btw, the picture they showed in the artical. do you see any stands anywhere?
For the last 15 years, boats at Pilots Point have stored with the rig standing.( For those not in New England Pilots Point is a Brewer Yard ) I have never seen one topple or be otherwise affected. Certinly there is strain on the rig and hull(how much is the debate). I'll even buy the ice falling from the rig argument (to a degree). But as I read the artical I kept thinging that if they were so worried about my boat then they should reduce the outragous price for dropping the rig ($12.00 ft) for my H33 with a forty two foot stick, thats 504.00 on top of the storage. They charge an additional $6.00 a foot if you leave your rig up. They state that they prop the boat better, yea right. I have stored with the rig up in the past and have had no ill effects. However I don't do it every year. I do agree that there is a need to inspect the rig in detail but I don't think that that is a good enough reason to drop it every year. Common sense should rule here. And btw, the picture they showed in the artical. do you see any stands anywhere?
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Paul McGhee
What's the motivation for...
...mis-informing their customers? I'm at Pilot's Point, too. I think that the extra charge for leaving the mast up is punitive, designed to discourage the practice. Like Dave, I seriously doubt that anything significant is done to brace boats with the mast left on. Couple of extra jack stands, woo-hoo. I just can't figure out why they would bullshit us. I don't see mast stepping/unstepping as a big moneymaker for the yards. If they wanted the extra money, they'd just raise the slip fee. With full marinas and waiting lists here on the east coast, there's not a heck of lot we could do about it. I'm not arguing with what anyone has said, just thinking out loud. Paul
...mis-informing their customers? I'm at Pilot's Point, too. I think that the extra charge for leaving the mast up is punitive, designed to discourage the practice. Like Dave, I seriously doubt that anything significant is done to brace boats with the mast left on. Couple of extra jack stands, woo-hoo. I just can't figure out why they would bullshit us. I don't see mast stepping/unstepping as a big moneymaker for the yards. If they wanted the extra money, they'd just raise the slip fee. With full marinas and waiting lists here on the east coast, there's not a heck of lot we could do about it. I'm not arguing with what anyone has said, just thinking out loud. Paul
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Ken Cobb
new article
Check out the article dated 10-23-03 at www.sailnet.com regarding winter storage of boats. They give some tips about how to protect the rig if you chose to leave the mast stepped.
Check out the article dated 10-23-03 at www.sailnet.com regarding winter storage of boats. They give some tips about how to protect the rig if you chose to leave the mast stepped.
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mark weiland
no extra charge
I have stored my boat (Catalina 30 Tall) on a cradle with the rig up at two different yards and have not paid anything extra at either of them. I agree, the cost of taking it down prevents me from doing that and also precludes indoor storage.
I have stored my boat (Catalina 30 Tall) on a cradle with the rig up at two different yards and have not paid anything extra at either of them. I agree, the cost of taking it down prevents me from doing that and also precludes indoor storage.
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Lauraine
We asked a surveyor what was the better way - up
or down. He said down. Reason being that most boat hulls today are not designed to take the extra weight of the mast without being supported evenly by the water they're floating in. Add to that the extra windage of a boat out of it's element in winter winds. Also you get the freeze/thaw cycle going in your standing rigging swages which can lead to early failure.
or down. He said down. Reason being that most boat hulls today are not designed to take the extra weight of the mast without being supported evenly by the water they're floating in. Add to that the extra windage of a boat out of it's element in winter winds. Also you get the freeze/thaw cycle going in your standing rigging swages which can lead to early failure.
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Alan
Look at the picture..
The white hull is still standing. What sort of 'wind' knocks over selected boats?? Seems to me someone made a mistake proping or moving poppets otherwise why would a boat right next door still be standing. I agree that there's a time to drop the rig and inspect, but every year '..give me a break!!'
The white hull is still standing. What sort of 'wind' knocks over selected boats?? Seems to me someone made a mistake proping or moving poppets otherwise why would a boat right next door still be standing. I agree that there's a time to drop the rig and inspect, but every year '..give me a break!!'
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Tom
Injury to people property...
The process of stepping and unstepping a mast opens potential for doing damage to the boat, other nearby boats, other property and esp the people doing the work. If the boat is in a cradle or held securly in stands of proper size, adjusted properly, it will be fine. Fair winds, Tom
The process of stepping and unstepping a mast opens potential for doing damage to the boat, other nearby boats, other property and esp the people doing the work. If the boat is in a cradle or held securly in stands of proper size, adjusted properly, it will be fine. Fair winds, Tom
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Bayard Gross
more the boat than the just the mast
As the mentioned article states about "new generation" boats which are designed lightly with tall masts, I think that the weight of the vessel and the length of its mast have the overall bearing on the decision to leave the mast up or down. Where I am in Greenwich, Connecticut, nearly all boats have their masts up with the exception of J-24s, Etchells 22s and similar "racing" inspired craft. J-24s, Etchell 22s, and such are realtively light boats with tall masts which would could easily fall off their trailers or stands in a good blow. Nevertheless, issues of leaving the mast up can be mitigated somewhat by shipping the boom. As the vessel will not head into the wind as on a mooring, removing the boom at least avoids the boom swinging about creating what pressures it does upon the rigging. Further, this also gives the gooseneck a rest. No reason to have the goosenack wear and tear its swivels while blowing to and fro while the boat is on land.
As the mentioned article states about "new generation" boats which are designed lightly with tall masts, I think that the weight of the vessel and the length of its mast have the overall bearing on the decision to leave the mast up or down. Where I am in Greenwich, Connecticut, nearly all boats have their masts up with the exception of J-24s, Etchells 22s and similar "racing" inspired craft. J-24s, Etchell 22s, and such are realtively light boats with tall masts which would could easily fall off their trailers or stands in a good blow. Nevertheless, issues of leaving the mast up can be mitigated somewhat by shipping the boom. As the vessel will not head into the wind as on a mooring, removing the boom at least avoids the boom swinging about creating what pressures it does upon the rigging. Further, this also gives the gooseneck a rest. No reason to have the goosenack wear and tear its swivels while blowing to and fro while the boat is on land.
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Dave Johndrow
Paul...
Pilots Point along with other marinas are fighting for the winter storage $$$. By using a lower per foot storage they appear competitive. If you doubt this then whats all the stuff about loosing your slip for the following season if you don't winter store there. If you were to outhaul up the CT river you could cut your winter storage bill significantly. I don't know what the motivation is and I don't belive that we are being bullshitted Their argument is valid but it's also exagerated and it is all about the money.
Pilots Point along with other marinas are fighting for the winter storage $$$. By using a lower per foot storage they appear competitive. If you doubt this then whats all the stuff about loosing your slip for the following season if you don't winter store there. If you were to outhaul up the CT river you could cut your winter storage bill significantly. I don't know what the motivation is and I don't belive that we are being bullshitted Their argument is valid but it's also exagerated and it is all about the money.
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Paul McGhee
Thanks for your thoughts
One question I should have posed was, "If there was no additional charge (to unstep) would you still store your boat with the mast up?" Paul sv Escape Artist h336
One question I should have posed was, "If there was no additional charge (to unstep) would you still store your boat with the mast up?" Paul sv Escape Artist h336
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Dave Johndrow
Good Question
Good question. I have to think about that. When the mast comes down, a lot of stress and abuse happens to the mast in the rack. ( paint scratched, roller furling issues, lost my windex once and bent the VHF antenna, lost spreader boots etc..) Am I trading one sort of abuse for another? Good question
Good question. I have to think about that. When the mast comes down, a lot of stress and abuse happens to the mast in the rack. ( paint scratched, roller furling issues, lost my windex once and bent the VHF antenna, lost spreader boots etc..) Am I trading one sort of abuse for another? Good question
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Lauraine
If that stuff happens to your mast in your yard,
Dave, what are they doing to your boat?? I think I'd find another yard real fast.
Dave, what are they doing to your boat?? I think I'd find another yard real fast.
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Lauraine
Article swiped from Sailnet regarding
this very topic: Must you unstep the mast? It is customary to unstep the mast when hauling the boat to reduce windage, which can tip the boat off kilter in high winter winds and induce the rig to vibrate if it is up, leading to cracked fittings. Extreme temperatures stress the rig by causing dissimilar metals in the spars and rigging to expand and contract at different rates. Aluminum masts, in particular, are affected by this problem and should be taken down. Manufacturers claim there is no harm in leaving carbon fiber masts (which are not impacted by temperature changes) in place through the winter, as long as the hull is well supported and ice isn’t allowed to buildup on the spar. Should you opt to leave the mast stepped for the winter, relax the entire rig by loosening the turnbuckles for shrouds and stays and tie off the halyards so they won’t slap against, and thus nick, the mast. While having the mast down makes it convenient to clean, check, and wax the spars and replace lights, it also means disconnecting the VHF antenna and wiring for lighting. It can mean several trips up the mast in the boson’s chair if everything isn't properly reconnected in the spring.
this very topic: Must you unstep the mast? It is customary to unstep the mast when hauling the boat to reduce windage, which can tip the boat off kilter in high winter winds and induce the rig to vibrate if it is up, leading to cracked fittings. Extreme temperatures stress the rig by causing dissimilar metals in the spars and rigging to expand and contract at different rates. Aluminum masts, in particular, are affected by this problem and should be taken down. Manufacturers claim there is no harm in leaving carbon fiber masts (which are not impacted by temperature changes) in place through the winter, as long as the hull is well supported and ice isn’t allowed to buildup on the spar. Should you opt to leave the mast stepped for the winter, relax the entire rig by loosening the turnbuckles for shrouds and stays and tie off the halyards so they won’t slap against, and thus nick, the mast. While having the mast down makes it convenient to clean, check, and wax the spars and replace lights, it also means disconnecting the VHF antenna and wiring for lighting. It can mean several trips up the mast in the boson’s chair if everything isn't properly reconnected in the spring.
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Kevin
Injury and Damage is an exageration
I won't address the issue of which is better, storing with the mast up or down but I don't agree that dropping the mast invites all kinds of risk of injury and damage. My club is one of three yacht clubs sharing a basin with a total of about 400 sailboats and it is mandatory that masts are taken down at haulout. Since all three clubs are "self help" the members take their masts down. There are never any injuries and if damage is occuring its so minimal I am not aware of it. Maybe owners take better care than yard workers. Kevin
I won't address the issue of which is better, storing with the mast up or down but I don't agree that dropping the mast invites all kinds of risk of injury and damage. My club is one of three yacht clubs sharing a basin with a total of about 400 sailboats and it is mandatory that masts are taken down at haulout. Since all three clubs are "self help" the members take their masts down. There are never any injuries and if damage is occuring its so minimal I am not aware of it. Maybe owners take better care than yard workers. Kevin
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