Mast top - loop for a fwd shackle...

[groundhogyh]

Hi all,

I am attempting to implement the storm jib idea I mentioned here a month or two back. So I need an additional jib halyard.

I like some of the ideas that were presented, but I would like to push the easy button on this as it is scary up there and I can implement a more elegant solution next time my mast is down.

I found an extra spot on the mast top that is not used. It is a U-bolt installed at the farthest forward spot on the mast top plate. So it is even forward of the forestay.

What was this intended for in the original vega design?
I find it puzzling as to what piece of hardware was intended to be forward of the forestay.

groundhog

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

[tim_klynn]

I use the U-bolt to attach a block for the spinnaker halyard. It works great for that, as the spinnaker needs to fly forward of the forestay.- Tim
________________________________
From: groundhog groundhogyh@...
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:12 PM
Subject: [AlbinVega] Mast top - loop for a fwd shackle...




Hi all,

I am attempting to implement the storm jib idea I mentioned here a month or two back. So I need an additional jib halyard.

I like some of the ideas that were presented, but I would like to push the easy button on this as it is scary up there and I can implement a more elegant solution next time my mast is down.

I found an extra spot on the mast top that is not used. It is a U-bolt installed at the farthest forward spot on the mast top plate. So it is even forward of the forestay.

What was this intended for in the original vega design?
I find it puzzling as to what piece of hardware was intended to be forward of the forestay.

groundhog

 

[j.hunter9999]

I believe that was use for the spinaker halyard. It works quite well for that purpose. In fact, it might be the more elegant solution you are looking for. I doubt you'll ever use the spinnaker and the storm jib at the same time on purpose

Jack

 

[tiempo2010]

The spinnaker crane will not work very well as an attachment for a storm
jib as anything attached to it and a point inside of your bow will cross
the forestay, likely chafing at that point. Best to attach the stay for the
storm jib down from the masthead a bit. If you keep it within about a foot
or so from the top runners will not be needed. I would run it parallel to
the headstay so it attaches close to the bow.

 

[groundhogyh]

Hmm...
I may have to do this job correctly then... lol

I hesitate to add a loop for a shackle below the mast top due to my fear of bending off the top of the mast. Maybe this is an unfounded fear if I attach the loop/eye as high as possible?

Anyway, I may have to use the idea of running the lines inside the mast to free up existing sheves as Jack-Bella has done with his vega.

Anyone else done this?
Jack, do you have more pictures of your mod? Especially how you exit your lines at the bottom?

groundhog

 

[tiempo2010]

It won't bend the mast. It is easy to do.

http://www.rigrite.com/spars/kenyon_spars/3049-mast.html

Scroll down to #K 40547 for an idea of the fitting used.

 

[groundhogyh]

Thanks Brian.
I have seen hardware shaped like this before.
I also have seen a plain loop with curved base.
Is there some benifit from this downward angled mast hound shape?
gh

 

[tiempo2010]

Because the pull from the stay is downward it puts the fasteners in line
with the loading. A fitting that is just on the front of the mast will have
the fasteners in tension but the fitting I linked to will have the
fasteners in shear - it will be stronger.

 

[j.hunter9999]

I think there is one photo of the mast exit plates in the Photos section under Bella. I bought the exit plates from Jamestown (I think), they are from Schaeffer. They were easy to install. I thought I posted a long explanation of how I did this on the forum at one time. I ended up pulling a line out that came untethered from my lead line, which necessitated re-running the line through the mast. It took some doing with fish tape, rotating the mast (it was on saw horses), and my first mate. But we eventually got the line back through.

I've enjoyed having the extra line. I often leave our mainsail halyard attached for the entire season. The second halyard on the back side has been used for everything from raising the boom out of the way during cocktail hour, to providing tension when I had to replace a length of the backstay.

The forward one doesn't get used as much. But that's because I don't have separate stay for the storm jib. Its one or the other.

Hope that helps. If you can't find the detailed instructions, shoot me an email off group. I think trying to run them with the mast up would be extremely difficult.

Jack

 

[groundhogyh]

Thank you both for the info...

Running the fish tape could be extremely difficult.....
But what if i use a heavy fish weight of some sort and use gravity?
Could this make it even easier than on the ground?

On the mast eye...
Someone just showed me a third option...
Wichard sells one that rivets on the front.... but it comes in 2 halves!
Cross section like an "L" shape. You slot the mast, insert the two "L" sections on the inside side of the mast, bolt the two "L" shapes into now a "T" shape inside the mast and 8 pop-rivets.
Just another interesting option..

New twist on the topic..
My plan for the tack point was to use a soft shackle of low stretch strapping to the forward cleat. Since this would be where a pad eye would be located anyway. Someone has mentioned that this may hold the forces (maybe 1000-1200 lbs gust) but may help to delaminate the deck. This may be true upon further thought...

The other poster said he made a two sided pad-eye, one eye above deck, the other below deck. He attached the bottome inside the hull eye to the hull structure some how to run the load to the hull rather than on the deck.
This seems extreme to me... but I will think on it.

Is it really possible that the deck could lift off completely ??
I could remedy the core delamination issue by putting a VERY large steel backing plate with the original 4X12 inch just below, creating a very difficult to deflect plate.

groundhog

 

[tiempo2010]

Groundhog

With a storm jib, winched tight to have a close to straight luff, you will
be putting a great deal of force on the fitting the lower end is attached
to. A cleat is not designed for that kind of load - most of its loads are
normally in shear. And the deck is not designed for that either. If it were
your chainplates would just be bolted to the deck as would your forestay
fitting. I would place the deck fitting at the chainlocker bulkhead if
possible, with the load carried down to the bulkhead, which may need
beefing up a bit.

 

[j.hunter9999]

I think you could use the weighted line method on a calm day or on the ground. There is are some posts in there that you want to be on the correct side of, like the the post for the upper shrouds. I think dropping it straight down definitely has its possibilities, so long as you can fish it out she it gets to the exit plate...maybe with a hanger or something.

You'll know for sure when you give it a shot. Don't sweat if it doesn't work out...most things are not permanent.

Jack

 

[tiempo2010]

One of the best weights to use is a bicycle chain, Small enough, heavy
enough, and easy to fish out - with a magnet even.

 

[tim_klynn]

I like to use fluorescent masons line w/a weight for the fish line (it's strong and easy to see). To pull the line out of the hole, I've found a hooked wire or hemostats work well. -tg
________________________________
From: groundhog groundhogyh@...
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Mast top - loop for a fwd shackle...



Thank you both for the info...

Running the fish tape could be extremely difficult.....
But what if i use a heavy fish weight of some sort and use gravity?
Could this make it even easier than on the ground?

On the mast eye...
Someone just showed me a third option...
Wichard sells one that rivets on the front.... but it comes in 2 halves!
Cross section like an "L" shape. You slot the mast, insert the two "L" sections on the inside side of the mast, bolt the two "L" shapes into now a "T" shape inside the mast and 8 pop-rivets.
Just another interesting option..

New twist on the topic..
My plan for the tack point was to use a soft shackle of low stretch strapping to the forward cleat. Since this would be where a pad eye would be located anyway. Someone has mentioned that this may hold the forces (maybe 1000-1200 lbs gust) but may help to delaminate the deck. This may be true upon further thought...

The other poster said he made a two sided pad-eye, one eye above deck, the other below deck. He attached the bottome inside the hull eye to the hull structure some how to run the load to the hull rather than on the deck.
This seems extreme to me... but I will think on it.

Is it really possible that the deck could lift off completely ??
I could remedy the core delamination issue by putting a VERY large steel backing plate with the original 4X12 inch just below, creating a very difficult to deflect plate.

groundhog

 

[pelagicasd]

When we had to tun a new line on a friends boat I made a mast worm. (bet nobody know what that is!) In bass fishing there are sinkers to weight rubber worms with that look like bullets with a hole through them. I strung about twelve of these together and they gave sufficent weight to pass over the sheave and carry a line down the mast. It worked well. Walt

 

[groundhogyh]

Thanks for the great ideas.

I have learned of a paragraph that someone said pers brohahl wrote on this very topic of anchoring the tack on an inner storm jib. See below...

-If a small storm jib is to be set low
near the mast it can be set flying to
a strong eyebolt aft of the mooring
cleat on the foredeck. A substantial
pad is needed under the deck and
preferably a tie-rod between the
eyebolt to the bulkhead forward of the
water tank low down. This storm jib
may be handier if set on a removeable
inner forestay (5mm dia) from the
hounds down to the eyebolt mentioned.

So apparently, there may be an existing spot, as one or two of you have just mentioned in your posts, where the cleat can be supported for vertical forces.

I would like to find more info on this bulkhead. Is there a construction diagram of how the bulkhead and watertank are oriented?

IN REVIEW SO FAR..... since i am gettin myself confused also. lol.
-Head attachment... You can convert to inner halyards and free one sheve up. Or you can use a mast hound to create an external eye on the mast as long as it is mounted up VERY CLOSE to the top of the mast to minimise possiblity of kinking the mast top.
-Tack attachment. Deck pad eye (or cleat as i intend) must be reinforced for vertical deflection by attaching an eye underneath the deck top eye and attached to the hull. Seems the best spot is some bulkhead that exists below or near the water tank.

groundhog

 

[pjacobs55]

Why not just fly it on the forestay? I question if it is worth so much work,
expense, weight aloft, windage etc. to get the center of effort a foot or
two further aft. Not to mention the apparent risk of pulling up the deck!
Brohahls remarks about a tie rod are telling, and keep in mind that these
boats are all old now and probably most of them have had some weakening of
the laminate/core in the bow area. Wouldnt be much fun to suffer a deck
failure, and maybe a sudden deck failure in the bow! in conditions in
which one would want to fly a storm jib.



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[groundhogyh]

Nico,
I have half the hardware for this now.. so i am going forward with it.
As I move forward with this, i can see some advantage for this set up.

-You can change the main furler sail while weather worsens down to the 60% by going forward and changing sails manually.
-When you want the 30% sail, you simply hoist it in the furled position. Unfurl. You doused the 60% jib and deployed the 30% all from the cockpit.
-also, i am now thinking I can play both sails by unfurling both the main jib furler and the inside furler to some degree.

That is my thinking to this point.
groundhog

 

[tiempo2010]

Groundhog

I posted the Per Brohall piece on Sailnet, all of which can be found in
this groups files section tagged as "Per Brohall-1pdf - fitting out for
offshore."

The reason the upper attachment should be near the masthead is not because
of kinking, but because if you go lower you will need running backstays to
support the forward pull of the storm stay.

A stay, often removable, installed this way is called a "Solent Stay". This
link may help. It describes with pictures how one was installed.

Svsarah.com

www.svsarah.com

 

[tiempo2010]

If it is installed as Per Brohall suggested there is virtually no load on
the deck, it is all carried by the hull or bulkhead it is attached to below
deck.

As I understand it groundhog has a furler on the forestay, the main reason
for installing a Solent stay.