Mast Step on top of Cabin or Sole?

[JBurbidge1]

I am restoring an older Rhodes 19, which I intend to trailer-sail. Currently, the mast threads through a hole on the cabin top and sits on top of the cabin sole. This setup appears to make it more difficult to single-handedly raise the mast. I am thinking of converting to a cabin-top step (more recent vintages of the Rhodes 19 step their mast on top).

I have a thousand questions around this: I wonder whether if there is an advantage to stepping the mast on the cabin sole instead of the cabin top. Is the mast more stable on the sole? Does it matter? Is it advisable to modify a 50-year old mast (assuming the mast is in reasonably good shape) to make this adjustment?

TIA for any experiences or suggestions you can share.

Jim

 

[Joe]

Lots of info on this subject if your search includes: "deck stepped vs. keel stepped masts"

In most cases, a deck stepped mast requires extra beef in the deck and a compression post under the deck between keel and mast base. There will be arguments about rigging differences also... in line shrouds, fore and aft lowers.. etc.

Your best bet is to study the deck stepped version of your boat and modify it accordingly.

 

[Benny17441]

If the actual problem is just the difficulty of raising the mast singlehanded I would only consider structural modifications to the boat as a last resort solution. Break down the problem into the smaller difficulties that make that task as a whole unacceptable. Find a way to lessen or remediate each difficulty and the whole task will become manageable. Fabricate a mast crutch, install braces use quick release tension stays and other gadgets and methods to ease the task. A mast is just a long lever and by using support points along its length you can get gravity to assist you in raising it to vertical. These support points can also help you control and guide end into its opening. I have used one or two mast crutches of different sizes to help handle weight as it transfers and seems to slide along the length of the mast to its bottom end when fully vertical. A mast raising pole with the use of the forestay and a winch can do the job if you restrain movement at the base and control lateral movement by solid supports or support lines. I'm sure if you think about it, do some research and get yourself a few mechanical aids you can easily raise that mast singlehanded without having to modify the boat.

 

[rgranger]

Before you do all this work to modify your boat...have you stepped the mast to see if it is hard for you to do by yourself? A 19' boat might not have that heavy of a mast.

Another idea I have seen (but I have not tried it) is a hinged mast guide. I tried to sketch a crude schematic but in case it does not make sense... a hinged mast-guide is a lot like a hinged mast step (tabernacle) but you want the mast-guide to be a bit larger so that you can clamp the mast into the hinged guide. Then when you "step" the guide the mast will be raised and will align with the hole in your cabin top. Then you loosen the clamp and lower the mast into the hole. Again! I've never tried this...

There are a lot of clever people on here who have come up with all sorts of ways to step their masts. You might want to dig around the archives a bit.

 

[RIVERCRUISER]

Why not a tabernacle?

Lots of examples on the web.

 

[rgranger]

Why not a tabernacle?

Lots of examples on the web.

A tabernacle would be cabin topped.... maybe a good option in the end... but would involve cutting the mast and changing all of the shroud and stay lengths... as well as glassing over the hole, and putting in a compression post. So... everything is a trade-off ....

 

[RIVERCRUISER]

A tabernacle would be cabin topped.... maybe a good option in the end... but would involve cutting the mast and changing all of the shroud and stay lengths... as well as glassing over the hole, and putting in a compression post. So... everything is a trade-off ....

Perhaps the cut off part of the mast could be the compression post and keeping the mast length above deck the same would minimize changes to the rigging? Might simplify raising the mast.

 

[rgranger]

Perhaps the cut off part of the mast could be the compression post and keeping the mast length above deck the same would minimize changes to the rigging? Might simplify raising the mast.

Yeah! Makes sense.

 

[JBurbidge1]

Thank you all for your comments. The majority seems to be in favor of getting over my fears of stepping the mast, and NOT modifying the original design of the boat.

Since modification is initially more work, and not easily reversible (financially and otherwise), I think I'll follow the suggestions for getting over myself and learning how to hoist and step the mast on the cabin sole. There appears to be lots of information and methods on the internet on how to do that.

The only other question: how do I minimize water leaks through the hole in the cabin top where the mast is threaded?

Jim

 

[rgranger]

Thank you all for your comments. The majority seems to be in favor of getting over my fears of stepping the mast, and NOT modifying the original design of the boat.

Since modification is initially more work, and not easily reversible (financially and otherwise), I think I'll follow the suggestions for getting over myself and learning how to hoist and step the mast on the cabin sole. There appears to be lots of information and methods on the internet on how to do that.

The only other question: how do I minimize water leaks through the hole in the cabin top where the mast is threaded?

Jim

There is a thing called a mast boot. You can buy one or make them

 

[rgranger]

... you also need shims to put into the "mast partners" (that is the hole in the deck).

These are wedges with a notch on top so they won't fall through the hole.

You can also see the rubber boot in this picture. You fold it down over the shims.

 

[Joe]

A tabernacle would be cabin topped.... maybe a good option in the end... but would involve cutting the mast and changing all of the shroud and stay lengths... as well as glassing over the hole, and putting in a compression post. So... everything is a trade-off ....

Why would the rigging need to be changed? The distance from deck to masthead remains the same.

Besides plugging the hole, additional reinforcement would most likely be added to the deck.

A compression post can be easily made with a piece of pipe and two flanges. Build an attractive enclosure for it out of wood to match your boat's interior.

A hinged tabernacle would offer a degree of stability when raising the mast.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I have read this thread and now I will put my two cents in having dealt with all types of masts too include this style that is step decked thru onto the cabin sole.

The first question what will the boat be used for, sitting in the water or trailering. Trailering as the post advised. The next question is how strong the person is and finally will that person be in an area where there is no wind so not to affect that mast in the upright position while being held.

Catalina in the 12.5 and 14.2 daysailors offers what is called the Expo version with a free standing mast that is step decked built out of carbon fiber. I introduced these two boats. Holding that free standing mast with winds prevalent, took all the strength to hold it upright without it going down as you are holding in essence the bottom section of that mast. I nearly lost it a time or two and could not recommend it to the older generations. In this case, we do not know the age of the person who posed this question or dexterity. In a sense with a longer and heavier mast although aluminum as in this case, I would err on the side of caution for safety alone going with a hinged mast step. In addition, I have also experienced other masts stepped thru the deck into the cabin of various sizes and found it more difficult. Then in trailering this boat, I would suggest the hinge mast step as you would normally be raising the mast into the wind; thus the wind would not be an issue..

With the current mast standing, rigging attached, I would draw a line at the base next to the deck which would give you a reference point where to cut the mast for adding it to a hinged mast step. I would of course glass in the deck and add a compression post inside and to the degree of that compression post on how it looks, I would be more concerned with structural integrity as the first point and asthetics secondly.

The whole point I am making, would it be easier to raise this mast if on a hinged mast step and the answer is yes not to mention the safety as well. I know some of you will disagree but again I have worked on sailboats to experience a lot as an individual but also as a dealer. However, the ultimate decision will rest with the owner of the Rhodes 19

 

[JBurbidge1]

Again, thank you for all of your replies. I appreciate your experience in this area.

Just as background: I was given this boat about five years ago. It was built in the early 1960's, and had spent at least part of it's existence in a racing fleet in San Francisco. There is much more of the 50+ years of it's history that I have not yet learned. It appears to have been rigged for racing. It had been t-boned on the port quarter, not fatally, but enough to bulls-eye the fiberglass right under the rail, and break the internal deck support in at least two places. It also appears to have received a number of make-do, jury-rigged, boneheaded modifications over the years. It sat on its trailer in a storage lot for five years before I became owner. It was completely bombed out, keel rust-pitted and separating from the hull, internal ribs crumbling into dry rot, the rudder came apart in my hands as I picked it up off the sole. I have not yet had it in the water, but expect to do so next spring, and fully able to sail the year after. I have not yet raised the mast, so perhaps my question about single-handedly raising it is premature, but I try to think ahead to the next task while working on the current one.

Based on what I have learned in this thread, I think I will try stepping the mast on the cabin sole - as currently designed - first. If this is manageable, tada, finis. If it proves to be unworkable for single-handing, I'll go through the process of setting up support from the sole to the cabin-top and modifying the mast to step on the cabin-top.

Jim

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Thank you for letting us know. I will still suggest that if the wind is blowing too hard, wait till it dies down. We value your safety. Good luck and please keep us posted.

 

[centerline]

I am restoring an older Rhodes 19, which I intend to trailer-sail. Currently, the mast threads through a hole on the cabin top and sits on top of the cabin sole. This setup appears to make it more difficult to single-handedly raise the mast. I am thinking of converting to a cabin-top step (more recent vintages of the Rhodes 19 step their mast on top).

I have a thousand questions around this: I wonder whether if there is an advantage to stepping the mast on the cabin sole instead of the cabin top. Is the mast more stable on the sole? Does it matter? Is it advisable to modify a 50-year old mast (assuming the mast is in reasonably good shape) to make this adjustment?

TIA for any experiences or suggestions you can share.

Jim

I agree with crazy dave... almost all small boats of that era were built as inexpensivly as they could be... and casting a hole in the deck to set the mast in was much cheaper than installing a kingpost and tabernacle.

But in my opinion you should only change it if you are going to do a quality job of it.
In addition to what has ben mentioned, the boat will be quicker to rig because the shrouds wont have to come loose to lift the mast out of the deck... just lay it back,removethe tabernacle bolt and slide it all forward to the crutch.
As for safety, the mast on an 18ft monohull isnt very big, so if your a full grown man there would be very little chance of it getting away from you, but when the end of it is attached to the deck and the shrouds and backstay is always attached, the mast will be bit safer while it is being raised, as opposed to a free standing stick that needs to be held verticle until it gets seated fully on the coin....

 

[dscribner]

Create a removable pocket that slips into the hole in the deck. This would act as a pivot to step the mast using a gin pole or brute strength. Essentially, it becomes a tabernacle. So, slip the end of the mast in, raise with temporary shrouds, pick it straight up, kick the pocket out of the way, let the mast slip into the hole. I think you'll find you're over thinking the issue. It's "only" a 19' boat so things should be pretty doable. I step my 28' mast singlehanded. Granted I use a tabernacle but the mast section on yours should be significantly smaller and easier to handle.

 

[lillia28]

I know I am late to this party, but there are a few things that are being overlooked. While it is simple enough to cut the mast and install a tabernacle, a deck stepped mast needs to have thicker walls than a keel stepped mast. I am not smart enough to understand exactly why, but I suggest you read Brian Toss' Rigger's Apprentice. There is a good section on column stiffness of masts and deck stepped vs keel stepped. The problem with a Rhodes 19 is that the mast needs to be lifted straight up and lowered through the holes in the deck. The mast is fairly light, but unwieldy due to its length. I think it would be easier to cut a channel in the deck, so you could "hinge" mast into place, using the original keel step. I'd try that before I shortened the mast, added a compression post and tabernacle. The load on a mast is almost all vertical so there is very little side load on the deck.
R19 carry a good bit of sail area for their size, which translates to some significant loads. R19s are nicely engineered boats, at least talk to a rigger before you improve on it.
Lou