I would like to know what size (volume) float would be required for the O'Day 17 Daysailer, to assure that the boat does not turtle if capsized. Also any guidance on where to get one that meets this requirement.
Mast Float
- Thread starter Sybarite
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this should do it.
http://sailsportmarine.com/index.ph...id=276&zenid=a518cd5d6b6193653880d00d25108834
once that mast tip is in the water, almost any buoyancy at the top will keep a 17 centerboarder from going all the way over.
http://sailsportmarine.com/index.ph...id=276&zenid=a518cd5d6b6193653880d00d25108834
once that mast tip is in the water, almost any buoyancy at the top will keep a 17 centerboarder from going all the way over.
How about saving your money and just don't capsize in the first place?
I suspect that adding a large float to the top of the mast might actually INCREASE the likelyhood of a capsize, since it will be weight right where you don't want it on an unballasted centerboard boat..... up high.
The Day Sailer is a centerboard boat and should not capsize if sailed like the unballasted centerboard boat that she is. If you are racing, capsizing is more likely, but still not inevitable. But if racing, class rules would not allow that masthead float anyway. When sailing any small centerboard boat like the DS II you want to sit to windward and ALWAYS have the mainsheet in your hand, use the camcleat to hold the tension, but keep the sheet in your hand. That will allow you to quickly release it from the cleat and let the sail out to spill the wind before you go over. Get a tiller extension/hiking stick and that will allow you to sit out on the windward side deck in stronger winds, it makes more difference that you will beileve! In strong wind days, sail with just the mainsail, raise hte centerboard slightly to balance the sail and you will be more comfortable. If you don't have one already, get a boom vang. It can be used to flatten the sail reducing the power that tips the boat, and also holds the boom down while sailing off the wind making the boat less likely to suddenly gybe. The vang also makes tending the mainsheet easier since you are then only pulling the sail in, not down and in.
Using these techniques, I have sailed my DS II for 16 seasons on windy Buzzards Bay (mostly single-handed) with never a capsize (a few close-calls....but very few!). I sailed a 12' Widgeon for 7 years before that, never came close to capsizing. I'm not a timid sailer either, I have had my boat surfing at over 7 knots many times. OK, that doesn't sound FAST.... but remember...... this is a 17' sailboat!! IT is pretty exciting when she goes like that! BTW: that was without a spinnaker!
I suspect that adding a large float to the top of the mast might actually INCREASE the likelyhood of a capsize, since it will be weight right where you don't want it on an unballasted centerboard boat..... up high.
The Day Sailer is a centerboard boat and should not capsize if sailed like the unballasted centerboard boat that she is. If you are racing, capsizing is more likely, but still not inevitable. But if racing, class rules would not allow that masthead float anyway. When sailing any small centerboard boat like the DS II you want to sit to windward and ALWAYS have the mainsheet in your hand, use the camcleat to hold the tension, but keep the sheet in your hand. That will allow you to quickly release it from the cleat and let the sail out to spill the wind before you go over. Get a tiller extension/hiking stick and that will allow you to sit out on the windward side deck in stronger winds, it makes more difference that you will beileve! In strong wind days, sail with just the mainsail, raise hte centerboard slightly to balance the sail and you will be more comfortable. If you don't have one already, get a boom vang. It can be used to flatten the sail reducing the power that tips the boat, and also holds the boom down while sailing off the wind making the boat less likely to suddenly gybe. The vang also makes tending the mainsheet easier since you are then only pulling the sail in, not down and in.
Using these techniques, I have sailed my DS II for 16 seasons on windy Buzzards Bay (mostly single-handed) with never a capsize (a few close-calls....but very few!). I sailed a 12' Widgeon for 7 years before that, never came close to capsizing. I'm not a timid sailer either, I have had my boat surfing at over 7 knots many times. OK, that doesn't sound FAST.... but remember...... this is a 17' sailboat!! IT is pretty exciting when she goes like that! BTW: that was without a spinnaker!
There are lots of reason a person might want to put a float on their mast. And not all of them necessarily involve a lack of sailing skills.
One big reason is for boat kept on buoys. Very often light day-sailors blow over and turtle. A float saves that every time.
Sometimes someone just likes to be reassured. I had a friend who's wife heard a horror story about a sailboat going turtle. She would not go until he convinced her it could not happen. Answer was a float. Now she loves sailing.
And sometimes people just like to make up their own minds about risk assessment, and how they might enjoy sailing more.
My DS II has weathered 40+ knot winds on her mooring, and didn't even come close to going over. With a huge float on the masthead.......who knows, I probably would have found her laying on her side.
Check with Rudy Nickerson at D&R Marine.... maybe he still has one of the optional masthead, anti-turtling devices that O'DAY offered in the early 1970's. If the boat capsized, the balloon in that device inflated and prevented the boat from turtling. It worked! My Godfather had one on his JAVELIN, but it doesn't deflate and re-arm itself.....so I don't know how that part is handled. my Godfather just popped the balloon and sailed more carefully after that. Maybe an inflatable PFD could be adapted? A Belt-pack, if it inflated automatically could work.... They can be repacked and re-armed easily. An inflatable float would not add significant weight or windage to the masthead.
I'm just saying that daysailers don't HAVE to capsize and won't under normal conditions. The DS II is VERY stable and with simple precautions is unlikely to capsize. Can they capsize? YES! Is it easy to prevent that? DOUBLE YES!! No way would O'DAY have been able to sell anywhere near the number of small boats that they did if the boats were prone to inevitable capsizing and turtling.
I still say that fitting a big float to the masthead of a centerboard boat INCREASES the likelyhood of capsizing. It puts weight and windage 25' off the water, exactly where you do not want extra weight and windage. Some catamarans have those floats, but first they are much beamier and able to handle the higher center of gravity without problems. Second, if they do go over...... they are VERY difficult to right and easy to turtle. They also are usually kept pulled up on a beach when not being used,
The DS II mast is full of foam and should prevent turtling long enough to right the boat. However, with simple precautions.........you will never tip over. I have seen video of a boat similar to a DS II that was blown over in Tropical Storm Irene last summer, she was floating on her side with the masthead just below the surface. She didn't turtle, and a DS II shouldn't quickly turtle either....... but I'm not going to let my boat capsize to prove that. It is too easy (and so much cheaper for me) to prevent a capsize. I'm not even sure I COULD capsize my boat........ I'm too ingrained to staying upright. PS: I unstepped my mast, but left my DS II on her mooring for Irene, she rode it out fine... but I still might haul out if there is a next time.
We can agree to disagree, but I still say that my 16 years of sailing a DS II without a single capsize, and 16 seasons of having the same boat on a mooring without capsizing in storms should show that it is not inevitable that a small sailboat WILL capsize. As I say, I am not a timid sailer, I sometimes push my little DS II to the limits........but she has never made me feel like no matter what I did, she was determined to capsize. I sail her like the centerboard boat she is, and find that in general she is just as stable when sailed that way as our old CAL 21 which had a 360# lead bulb on the bottom of her keel. In fact ,in the last season that we owned our CAL, I was less afraid of the DS II in a gust of wind than the CAL. I think that the very possiblity that a DS II COULD go over is what has kept me from ever going over. I release the mainsheet, and up she comes......maybe I washed the leeward side deck, maybe even the leeward cockpit seat...but she did not go over. I once capsized my little sailing dinghy..... on purpose, wondered what would happen if she went over........ it wasn't too dramatic, she filled with water and sort-of sank......well, being wood she still floated as soon as I swam out. But in over 40 years of sailing, that was my only capsizing under sail. I like to stay dry.
Any sailboat (even an O'DAY 40!) CAN capsize, but under normal conditions it is NOT inevitable, no boat HAS to capsize and most never will.
Check with Rudy Nickerson at D&R Marine.... maybe he still has one of the optional masthead, anti-turtling devices that O'DAY offered in the early 1970's. If the boat capsized, the balloon in that device inflated and prevented the boat from turtling. It worked! My Godfather had one on his JAVELIN, but it doesn't deflate and re-arm itself.....so I don't know how that part is handled. my Godfather just popped the balloon and sailed more carefully after that. Maybe an inflatable PFD could be adapted? A Belt-pack, if it inflated automatically could work.... They can be repacked and re-armed easily. An inflatable float would not add significant weight or windage to the masthead.
I'm just saying that daysailers don't HAVE to capsize and won't under normal conditions. The DS II is VERY stable and with simple precautions is unlikely to capsize. Can they capsize? YES! Is it easy to prevent that? DOUBLE YES!! No way would O'DAY have been able to sell anywhere near the number of small boats that they did if the boats were prone to inevitable capsizing and turtling.
I still say that fitting a big float to the masthead of a centerboard boat INCREASES the likelyhood of capsizing. It puts weight and windage 25' off the water, exactly where you do not want extra weight and windage. Some catamarans have those floats, but first they are much beamier and able to handle the higher center of gravity without problems. Second, if they do go over...... they are VERY difficult to right and easy to turtle. They also are usually kept pulled up on a beach when not being used,
The DS II mast is full of foam and should prevent turtling long enough to right the boat. However, with simple precautions.........you will never tip over. I have seen video of a boat similar to a DS II that was blown over in Tropical Storm Irene last summer, she was floating on her side with the masthead just below the surface. She didn't turtle, and a DS II shouldn't quickly turtle either....... but I'm not going to let my boat capsize to prove that. It is too easy (and so much cheaper for me) to prevent a capsize. I'm not even sure I COULD capsize my boat........ I'm too ingrained to staying upright. PS: I unstepped my mast, but left my DS II on her mooring for Irene, she rode it out fine... but I still might haul out if there is a next time.
We can agree to disagree, but I still say that my 16 years of sailing a DS II without a single capsize, and 16 seasons of having the same boat on a mooring without capsizing in storms should show that it is not inevitable that a small sailboat WILL capsize. As I say, I am not a timid sailer, I sometimes push my little DS II to the limits........but she has never made me feel like no matter what I did, she was determined to capsize. I sail her like the centerboard boat she is, and find that in general she is just as stable when sailed that way as our old CAL 21 which had a 360# lead bulb on the bottom of her keel. In fact ,in the last season that we owned our CAL, I was less afraid of the DS II in a gust of wind than the CAL. I think that the very possiblity that a DS II COULD go over is what has kept me from ever going over. I release the mainsheet, and up she comes......maybe I washed the leeward side deck, maybe even the leeward cockpit seat...but she did not go over. I once capsized my little sailing dinghy..... on purpose, wondered what would happen if she went over........ it wasn't too dramatic, she filled with water and sort-of sank......well, being wood she still floated as soon as I swam out. But in over 40 years of sailing, that was my only capsizing under sail. I like to stay dry.
Any sailboat (even an O'DAY 40!) CAN capsize, but under normal conditions it is NOT inevitable, no boat HAS to capsize and most never will.
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I'm not questions your sailing skills. I'm questioning your answer to a person new to the board and probably new to sailing that wants to make his boat less likely to turtle in the event of a knock-down. Telling him to sail better is not helpful.
All I'm saying is that if you want to prevent capsizing, you don't put a heavy, windage adding float on the masthead.
If one constantly worries about capsizing.......guess what happens??
Instead of worrying about how to recover from a capsize, we need to all work to PREVENT that capsize in the first place. I wasn't born an expert sailer......... I had to learn to sail, It is just so easy to prevent a capsize, my advice to keep the mainsheet in hand and release it in a gust could be just the advice that saves someone......... we are on this list to relate our experiences to help newby sailers. We hope that way to shorten the learning curve for others....so that no one else makes the mistakes that we may have made (or saw someone make).
PS: check the "Ask O'DAY owners" page, and the thread we are discussing "heeling".
If one constantly worries about capsizing.......guess what happens??
Instead of worrying about how to recover from a capsize, we need to all work to PREVENT that capsize in the first place. I wasn't born an expert sailer......... I had to learn to sail, It is just so easy to prevent a capsize, my advice to keep the mainsheet in hand and release it in a gust could be just the advice that saves someone......... we are on this list to relate our experiences to help newby sailers. We hope that way to shorten the learning curve for others....so that no one else makes the mistakes that we may have made (or saw someone make).
PS: check the "Ask O'DAY owners" page, and the thread we are discussing "heeling".
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