A notice has been posted at our marina that the new owners are seeking a permit to convert to condominium and sell all the slips. This comes on the heels of a small rate increase, incidentally, but is a surprise. I have no idea how this will turn out, but I know it has been a concern for many boat owners in Florida and now along the Gulf Coast post-hurricanes, according to the media. I know how I feel about this, it makes me uneasy, but I have no idea what the experience has been elsewhere. Has it proved to be as bad as some fear, or not a big deal? Is there any legitimate argument that can be made against such a change, or is it a slam dunk. There will be a public hearing before the zoning and planning folk within a week or two. Our marina (Marina Village at Alameda) has 750 slips, available first come first served, and has about ten percent liveaboards. In recent years there is usually a wait for a slip for any boat over 30 ft. Many of my dock mates come from nearby yacht clubs where there is no dock space available. I'd be interested in the experience of others. Thanks Sanders s/v Good News H37c Alameda P.s. I considered posting this in "politics" but I am not much interested in rants -- I can do that myself -- but want to hear from experience about options in this situation.
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CONDO VS MARINAS
Two things are happening along the MS & AL coasts:1)Many private marinas aren't rebuilding after Katrina due to a lack or high cost of insurance coverage given the increase in hurricanes. 2)Huge new condo complexes, many with marinas, are taking over the waterfront. While they're building new marinas with some of the condos, smucks like me can't afford $1100+/mth for a slip. For my 37' sailboat, I'm lucky enough to have a slip ($3/mth+Elect)in a small scenic marina owned by the city. Although all nearby homes were destroyed by Katrina's winds and 20+ surge, our docks survived due to a lack of wave action. But 99% of marinas along the MS coast were destroyed, which includes boatyards. All yacht clubs were destroyed/suffered severe damage-it will take years for them to rebuild if they do at all. Add hurricane damage to fuel costs and there will be few boats on the water down here for a while. Developers are eagerly looking at waterfront property now left void by Katrina.
Two things are happening along the MS & AL coasts:1)Many private marinas aren't rebuilding after Katrina due to a lack or high cost of insurance coverage given the increase in hurricanes. 2)Huge new condo complexes, many with marinas, are taking over the waterfront. While they're building new marinas with some of the condos, smucks like me can't afford $1100+/mth for a slip. For my 37' sailboat, I'm lucky enough to have a slip ($3/mth+Elect)in a small scenic marina owned by the city. Although all nearby homes were destroyed by Katrina's winds and 20+ surge, our docks survived due to a lack of wave action. But 99% of marinas along the MS coast were destroyed, which includes boatyards. All yacht clubs were destroyed/suffered severe damage-it will take years for them to rebuild if they do at all. Add hurricane damage to fuel costs and there will be few boats on the water down here for a while. Developers are eagerly looking at waterfront property now left void by Katrina.
This is a problem.
According to a harbormaster that I know in SW Florida, it is a persistent problem, but a money-maker for the marina owner. There is plenty of open land at the marinas. So they sell the marina and land for condos and offer the "perk" of having a slip to go with it. It is forcing a scarcity of slips and driving the price up on those marinas that are staying open.
According to a harbormaster that I know in SW Florida, it is a persistent problem, but a money-maker for the marina owner. There is plenty of open land at the marinas. So they sell the marina and land for condos and offer the "perk" of having a slip to go with it. It is forcing a scarcity of slips and driving the price up on those marinas that are staying open.
Marina Village
I too am berther and also liveaboard at Marina Village Yacht Harbor. The marina is already surrounded by condos. This condo conversion is strictly the marina berths and does not involve the condo complex adjacent. From what I understand, this marina was a money maker as a rental marina and is now for sale. The prospective new owners want to convert the slips to condos. I guess the sale is contingent upon the conversion. Sanders, contact me at rodney_k(nospam)hotmail.com if you would like info on a marina group just now organizing. (Remove the nospam and substitute the @ symbol)
I too am berther and also liveaboard at Marina Village Yacht Harbor. The marina is already surrounded by condos. This condo conversion is strictly the marina berths and does not involve the condo complex adjacent. From what I understand, this marina was a money maker as a rental marina and is now for sale. The prospective new owners want to convert the slips to condos. I guess the sale is contingent upon the conversion. Sanders, contact me at rodney_k(nospam)hotmail.com if you would like info on a marina group just now organizing. (Remove the nospam and substitute the @ symbol)
Rent versus own
Land Development is my profession so this topic is interesting to me even though I have no experience with this situation. Paul's comment about marinas selling out for residential development is one issue. In most areas of the country, there is a rising tide of wealth that is causing waterfront property to be far too valuable to continue to operate anemic businesses such as many marinas tend to be. There is no question that as land values continue to soar, selling out for residential development is a more attractive option to many marina owners. The company I work for has been in such deals. The other issue that is talked about here is the conversion of rental slips to "dockominiums". I am curious why this is happening. On the one hand, the marina owner (or the contract purchaser as the case may be) may be interested in "cashing out" on their investment. This seems odd to me if the rental slips generate an attractive revenue stream. There has to be an economic reason for them wanting to do this. Some possibilities may be that there is too much resistance to rental increases and overhead costs are not adequately covered. Maybe there is too much uncertainty about environmental liability. On the other hand, the marina owner gives up the chance to capitalize on future appreciation if they sell their slips now. But if they are selling 25-year leases, they may not giving that up. Maybe the marina owner is satisfied turning the operation into a service orgnization and minimizing exposure to other risks. If I were a buyer, I would be worried about investing in a slip if the location is not good and other amenities are weak. I would also bet that they have the market pretty well figured out and the deal is going to be in their favor, at least initially. Over time, the investment may turn out to be a good one, but that is purely a market driven risk. I would also be concerned about liabilities that you have to assume as an owner, rather than a renter.
Land Development is my profession so this topic is interesting to me even though I have no experience with this situation. Paul's comment about marinas selling out for residential development is one issue. In most areas of the country, there is a rising tide of wealth that is causing waterfront property to be far too valuable to continue to operate anemic businesses such as many marinas tend to be. There is no question that as land values continue to soar, selling out for residential development is a more attractive option to many marina owners. The company I work for has been in such deals. The other issue that is talked about here is the conversion of rental slips to "dockominiums". I am curious why this is happening. On the one hand, the marina owner (or the contract purchaser as the case may be) may be interested in "cashing out" on their investment. This seems odd to me if the rental slips generate an attractive revenue stream. There has to be an economic reason for them wanting to do this. Some possibilities may be that there is too much resistance to rental increases and overhead costs are not adequately covered. Maybe there is too much uncertainty about environmental liability. On the other hand, the marina owner gives up the chance to capitalize on future appreciation if they sell their slips now. But if they are selling 25-year leases, they may not giving that up. Maybe the marina owner is satisfied turning the operation into a service orgnization and minimizing exposure to other risks. If I were a buyer, I would be worried about investing in a slip if the location is not good and other amenities are weak. I would also bet that they have the market pretty well figured out and the deal is going to be in their favor, at least initially. Over time, the investment may turn out to be a good one, but that is purely a market driven risk. I would also be concerned about liabilities that you have to assume as an owner, rather than a renter.
condo
Many places are going condo because it is a lump sum cash influx, and also a steady source of income over the years, you get the big chunk when you sell it, then the maintenance fees over time, which from paying attention to a lot of condos, bock docks and homes, can be nearly as high as regular dock/house rental. personal opinion is that a condo of any sort is a waste of money, it's not truly yours in the sense that you can do what you want with it, any changes normaly have to go through a board, you have all the responsability, and few of the priveledges of ownership, you will always be paying rent ken.
Many places are going condo because it is a lump sum cash influx, and also a steady source of income over the years, you get the big chunk when you sell it, then the maintenance fees over time, which from paying attention to a lot of condos, bock docks and homes, can be nearly as high as regular dock/house rental. personal opinion is that a condo of any sort is a waste of money, it's not truly yours in the sense that you can do what you want with it, any changes normaly have to go through a board, you have all the responsability, and few of the priveledges of ownership, you will always be paying rent ken.
My Marina is going down the tube
Watson's Bayou Marina is going condo. They have already closed adjacent Snug Harbor which was the only facility to haul out. It looks to be a big mess and I wonder who would want to buy an expensive condo that is so close to a pulp mill, sewage treatment plant and gas storage facilities!!! We are being left with few options and will probably end up selling the boat. We considered moving the boat up to a lake on the Tennessee river but even there the marinas have waiting lists. Even as much as we love our boat the expense and aggravations of ownership are outweighing the pleasures at this time. After enjoying the gulf a lake isn't very appealing but it would be nice to not worry about hurricanes 6 months/year. Boating was once only for the rich and it seems to be heading in that direction again. We have maybe a year or so until they make the slips available only to condo owners. With the current scarcity of public slips around Panama City a lot of boats will be homeless. There seems to be a trend towards mooring boats in the bayou. But I seriously doubt that the new condo will allow that to continue once the condos are built. There seems to be a trend in florida that the waterfront owners can't stand the sight of boats blocking their view of the water. notice the anchoring restrictions all along south florida. Tom
Watson's Bayou Marina is going condo. They have already closed adjacent Snug Harbor which was the only facility to haul out. It looks to be a big mess and I wonder who would want to buy an expensive condo that is so close to a pulp mill, sewage treatment plant and gas storage facilities!!! We are being left with few options and will probably end up selling the boat. We considered moving the boat up to a lake on the Tennessee river but even there the marinas have waiting lists. Even as much as we love our boat the expense and aggravations of ownership are outweighing the pleasures at this time. After enjoying the gulf a lake isn't very appealing but it would be nice to not worry about hurricanes 6 months/year. Boating was once only for the rich and it seems to be heading in that direction again. We have maybe a year or so until they make the slips available only to condo owners. With the current scarcity of public slips around Panama City a lot of boats will be homeless. There seems to be a trend towards mooring boats in the bayou. But I seriously doubt that the new condo will allow that to continue once the condos are built. There seems to be a trend in florida that the waterfront owners can't stand the sight of boats blocking their view of the water. notice the anchoring restrictions all along south florida. Tom
Tom
I considered buying Watson Bayou Marina in 1999, but I didn't think it was worth the 400k the owner wanted for it. A guy who moved his boat from Snug Harbor to my lake in Oklahoma told me he heard that Watson Bayou was selling for 3.5 mil. I kept my money in WorldCom stock. If you need any financial advice, just let me know.
I considered buying Watson Bayou Marina in 1999, but I didn't think it was worth the 400k the owner wanted for it. A guy who moved his boat from Snug Harbor to my lake in Oklahoma told me he heard that Watson Bayou was selling for 3.5 mil. I kept my money in WorldCom stock. If you need any financial advice, just let me know.
Condos, Storms, Developers
We have condo/harbor at Sailboat Bay, Gulf Shores AL. We're at the ICW and Mobile Bay. We have assigned slips. The eye of hurricane Ivan went right over us. The place was named Bon Secour for a reason. Because of developement pressure unit prices tripled after Ivan. Devlopement has gone nuts alone the ICW. They would love to get our property tear us down and build high rises. Boat slips can go for more than my mortgage and monthly dues. If I sold now there is no place I could afford to go. I'm not in real estate. But, our 2 bedrooms units go from $340k to $419k, and 3 bedrooms go up to $635k on the bay side.
We have condo/harbor at Sailboat Bay, Gulf Shores AL. We're at the ICW and Mobile Bay. We have assigned slips. The eye of hurricane Ivan went right over us. The place was named Bon Secour for a reason. Because of developement pressure unit prices tripled after Ivan. Devlopement has gone nuts alone the ICW. They would love to get our property tear us down and build high rises. Boat slips can go for more than my mortgage and monthly dues. If I sold now there is no place I could afford to go. I'm not in real estate. But, our 2 bedrooms units go from $340k to $419k, and 3 bedrooms go up to $635k on the bay side.
It all will equal out in the short term
in time...how much time I'm not sure. Basic facts. There are so many boats and so many slips. New boats are being built each year but not so many slips. The reason is the so called cost. Not sure where all the money is going, but my marina has changed owners often because they seem to find it hard to make a profit. The good news at my marina is that the current owner uses the marina mainly as an additional attraction to his main business (Kemah boardwalk). So as long as he can not loose money he is doing good. However, there are many marinas in the area and they are starting the condo push. That will raise the demand for rental slips and therefore my bill. I'm just happy I'm on a 4 year plan to cruise the world. Anyway...as the marinas sell the slips, sooner or later they aren't going to find buyers and prices will drop to a point that somebody will see the opporuntity to buy a them and rent them out again. Also what will happen is that these condo and slip packages will have people not using the slip. That's where we as boaters need to approach them and rent from them. Sooner or later the slips will get filled again...but the prices are going to go up regardless because the number of boats are starting to outnumber the number of slips out there (partly due to the rise in population which leads to the rise in boaters, but also reduces the land available and therefore reduces the number of slips). SUMMARY: get used to mooring or anchoring your boat for good because sooner or later you will have to.
in time...how much time I'm not sure. Basic facts. There are so many boats and so many slips. New boats are being built each year but not so many slips. The reason is the so called cost. Not sure where all the money is going, but my marina has changed owners often because they seem to find it hard to make a profit. The good news at my marina is that the current owner uses the marina mainly as an additional attraction to his main business (Kemah boardwalk). So as long as he can not loose money he is doing good. However, there are many marinas in the area and they are starting the condo push. That will raise the demand for rental slips and therefore my bill. I'm just happy I'm on a 4 year plan to cruise the world. Anyway...as the marinas sell the slips, sooner or later they aren't going to find buyers and prices will drop to a point that somebody will see the opporuntity to buy a them and rent them out again. Also what will happen is that these condo and slip packages will have people not using the slip. That's where we as boaters need to approach them and rent from them. Sooner or later the slips will get filled again...but the prices are going to go up regardless because the number of boats are starting to outnumber the number of slips out there (partly due to the rise in population which leads to the rise in boaters, but also reduces the land available and therefore reduces the number of slips). SUMMARY: get used to mooring or anchoring your boat for good because sooner or later you will have to.
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