This fall, when the marina was pulling the boat for the season, we had some problems. The boat was lifted
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Negligence
Their insurance should cover this damage but I have to wonder why this is being adressed now. What took so long? LaDonna
Their insurance should cover this damage but I have to wonder why this is being adressed now. What took so long? LaDonna
explanation
The marina has said they will fix the obvious. Over the winter the hairline crack on the keel has come out. Also, they don't do any fiberglass work between Oct. and April in upstate NY. It is to cold. I have questions now because I think there is more damage then the original cosmetics. What do you think?
The marina has said they will fix the obvious. Over the winter the hairline crack on the keel has come out. Also, they don't do any fiberglass work between Oct. and April in upstate NY. It is to cold. I have questions now because I think there is more damage then the original cosmetics. What do you think?
See a/some good Surveyor(s)
Your suspicions are justified. I'd talk to a/couple REALLY GOOD surveyor(s) and find someone you can work with. Make sure they have no connection to the yard and have no problem acting in your behalf. Take some pictures, if you haven't already, so you have something to show. Lead keels are pretty stout and the cradle can be replaced, that's no problem. What bothers me is the potential for damage in the forward part of the hull where the keel mates, the bow pad areas, and the spider cracks (the last two are probably signs of excessive stress). A 30-footer represents a fair amount of money so you're probably looking at lining up a lawyer and in New York that shouldn't be hard to do. Part of you loss will be at resale time when you have to describe what happened so this should be factored in. Not only that, while one is in litigation and again during repair you'll have lost use of the boat, another bummer. Concurrent with finding a surveyor maybe one could contact Catalina and get their assessment on any possible structural compromise based on the description and pictures. Also, maybe your insurance company can provide some support but they’ll probably just want to get over with is as fast as they can. From your description this sounds like it will be a real mess. The fact that this much time has transpired won’t be helpful to your case but with the impending sailing season around the corner you’ll want to build a fire under them. Also, if they’re like most boatyards they probably made you sign a waiver of responsibility paper too, ? Good luck and I'm sure you'll get a lot of responses here.
Your suspicions are justified. I'd talk to a/couple REALLY GOOD surveyor(s) and find someone you can work with. Make sure they have no connection to the yard and have no problem acting in your behalf. Take some pictures, if you haven't already, so you have something to show. Lead keels are pretty stout and the cradle can be replaced, that's no problem. What bothers me is the potential for damage in the forward part of the hull where the keel mates, the bow pad areas, and the spider cracks (the last two are probably signs of excessive stress). A 30-footer represents a fair amount of money so you're probably looking at lining up a lawyer and in New York that shouldn't be hard to do. Part of you loss will be at resale time when you have to describe what happened so this should be factored in. Not only that, while one is in litigation and again during repair you'll have lost use of the boat, another bummer. Concurrent with finding a surveyor maybe one could contact Catalina and get their assessment on any possible structural compromise based on the description and pictures. Also, maybe your insurance company can provide some support but they’ll probably just want to get over with is as fast as they can. From your description this sounds like it will be a real mess. The fact that this much time has transpired won’t be helpful to your case but with the impending sailing season around the corner you’ll want to build a fire under them. Also, if they’re like most boatyards they probably made you sign a waiver of responsibility paper too, ? Good luck and I'm sure you'll get a lot of responses here.
Use a surveyor!
I've seen this type of damage before, it may not look to bad, but the potential is there for very serious strutural damage. I strongly recommend engaging an "independant" (that means not associated with the yard) surveyor that has experience with this type of damage. The cost should be borne by the yard, it's a cheap price to pay if you consider the possible consequences. Best of luck to you.
I've seen this type of damage before, it may not look to bad, but the potential is there for very serious strutural damage. I strongly recommend engaging an "independant" (that means not associated with the yard) surveyor that has experience with this type of damage. The cost should be borne by the yard, it's a cheap price to pay if you consider the possible consequences. Best of luck to you.
boat repair
Sue, you need to get a good marine surveyor and have a complete exam of the hull and any other area that are of concern (at the marina's expense not yours and a surveyor of your choosing) I would insist on a before and after inspection.If not just insist on going thur there (the marina) insurance,if they are not coperating with you go thur your own insurance and let them fight it out.It sounds like you could have some serious hull damage and depending on the age and value it could "total" the boat. You may also want to have a chat with your insurance agent for some guidance on how to handle this. This is a big issue as boating season (in this area)is just starting and the yard will most likely put you behind there paying customer, so you will most likely be late getting in the water. You should have started getting info as soon as it happened(at least a inspection) to determine how much damage there is. I hope for the best and that there is no major damage to you boat. Good Luck and update us on what happens !
Sue, you need to get a good marine surveyor and have a complete exam of the hull and any other area that are of concern (at the marina's expense not yours and a surveyor of your choosing) I would insist on a before and after inspection.If not just insist on going thur there (the marina) insurance,if they are not coperating with you go thur your own insurance and let them fight it out.It sounds like you could have some serious hull damage and depending on the age and value it could "total" the boat. You may also want to have a chat with your insurance agent for some guidance on how to handle this. This is a big issue as boating season (in this area)is just starting and the yard will most likely put you behind there paying customer, so you will most likely be late getting in the water. You should have started getting info as soon as it happened(at least a inspection) to determine how much damage there is. I hope for the best and that there is no major damage to you boat. Good Luck and update us on what happens !
Make the marina buy the boat.
Sue, If it was me, I'd get a good lawyer and make the marina buy the boat. There is no telling what this has done to structural members in the boat you'll never be able to see. You would have to report this to any perspective buyer and that has killed your resale FOREVER! This is truly the gift that keeps on giving. The marina is clearly at fault, and having them fix the boat does not pass the reasonable man test. That legal test says did they do what any reasonable man or woman would do to insure you boat wasn't damaged. No they did not. I can't believe you would even contemplate having THEM fix this boat. What is the incentive for them to fix it right? There is none. Make them buy the boat. If you can't get that done, have it repaired somewhere else and have them pay the bill. Also don't forget what your time and loss of use is worth. I wish you the best of luck. Talk to your lawyer and at least assess what your options are. What ever he or she says it will be worth the 200 bucks to know where you stand. I wish you the very best of luck with this. Regards, Chris
Sue, If it was me, I'd get a good lawyer and make the marina buy the boat. There is no telling what this has done to structural members in the boat you'll never be able to see. You would have to report this to any perspective buyer and that has killed your resale FOREVER! This is truly the gift that keeps on giving. The marina is clearly at fault, and having them fix the boat does not pass the reasonable man test. That legal test says did they do what any reasonable man or woman would do to insure you boat wasn't damaged. No they did not. I can't believe you would even contemplate having THEM fix this boat. What is the incentive for them to fix it right? There is none. Make them buy the boat. If you can't get that done, have it repaired somewhere else and have them pay the bill. Also don't forget what your time and loss of use is worth. I wish you the best of luck. Talk to your lawyer and at least assess what your options are. What ever he or she says it will be worth the 200 bucks to know where you stand. I wish you the very best of luck with this. Regards, Chris
Chris's Good Idea !
Sue, after reading Chris's idea about having the marina buy the boat I think this might be your best option. Any repairs will be clearly noted in a prepurchase survey and will most likely kill any resale of you boat at market value. After all would you pay going rate for a boat that has had extensive repair work to the hull? I liked his analogy about the "gift that keeps on giving". The marina is clearly at fault here and needs to do the right thing, rather then hang a albatrose around your neck.I think you also need to let the insurance know about this (the marina's insurace and yours) I would make it clear you want an outside expert of your choice determine how much damage and what (if any) repairs will be made.The damage has harmed the boat for its lifetime and you will never even break even on this no matter what you do.The resale (if boat is repaired)or cost of replacing the boat will realy add up to big money, the marina messed up here big time and need to make a lot of good will toward you! Good Luck and keep us updated !
Sue, after reading Chris's idea about having the marina buy the boat I think this might be your best option. Any repairs will be clearly noted in a prepurchase survey and will most likely kill any resale of you boat at market value. After all would you pay going rate for a boat that has had extensive repair work to the hull? I liked his analogy about the "gift that keeps on giving". The marina is clearly at fault here and needs to do the right thing, rather then hang a albatrose around your neck.I think you also need to let the insurance know about this (the marina's insurace and yours) I would make it clear you want an outside expert of your choice determine how much damage and what (if any) repairs will be made.The damage has harmed the boat for its lifetime and you will never even break even on this no matter what you do.The resale (if boat is repaired)or cost of replacing the boat will realy add up to big money, the marina messed up here big time and need to make a lot of good will toward you! Good Luck and keep us updated !
Let your insurance company handle it!
Hopefully, you called them as soon as it happened. If not, orif you didn't find out about till now, call them NOW! They will send in a surveyor to assess the damage...they will file a claim against the yard and provide legal talent to sue 'em if they have to. They know what they're doing. That's why you have insurance. You DO have insurance? If not, you need expert help, not armchair quarterbacking from the folks here.
Hopefully, you called them as soon as it happened. If not, orif you didn't find out about till now, call them NOW! They will send in a surveyor to assess the damage...they will file a claim against the yard and provide legal talent to sue 'em if they have to. They know what they're doing. That's why you have insurance. You DO have insurance? If not, you need expert help, not armchair quarterbacking from the folks here.
Check the Rigging
Almost forgot. With the kind of sudden force that took place the rigging should be checked too because it took a good hit. Even check the furler luff joints because they flexed a lot when the forestay slackened. The masthead fly - is it still there? Water tank still tight? Engine mounts?
Almost forgot. With the kind of sudden force that took place the rigging should be checked too because it took a good hit. Even check the furler luff joints because they flexed a lot when the forestay slackened. The masthead fly - is it still there? Water tank still tight? Engine mounts?
Peggy's right on the money
Sue, As Peggy says contact your insurance company if you haven't done so. If you have a note on this boat you may be required to inform your insurance company to cover your liability to the lender. You need professional help, we are just giving you our gut reactions, but get some help. Regards, Chris
Sue, As Peggy says contact your insurance company if you haven't done so. If you have a note on this boat you may be required to inform your insurance company to cover your liability to the lender. You need professional help, we are just giving you our gut reactions, but get some help. Regards, Chris
I think you have sound advice here
I think having a surveyor in conjunction with the insurance company is a good deal. This is provided that the insurance company knows boats. I would insist on a surveyor that you picked. Not the insurance company. My concern is that when you flex fiberglass beyond its flex point, you have structurally damaged it. A repair is not going to make it the boat it was. It would have to be repaired inside and out to give it the strength of the original hull. However in those repair areas, the fiber glass will not flex like the existing hull, making a hard spot or a weak spot. For instance... Take a piece of windshield glass. Break it then repair it. This is like a fiberglass repair. Unless it is cut out and reinstalled perfectly. (fat chance!) If you sail your boat hard and run the risk of severe weather, don't let the insurance company nor the marina sell you on a repair. There is no way to truely make it the boat that it was. good luck remember preseverance pays off,(it is a good quality) r.w.landau
I think having a surveyor in conjunction with the insurance company is a good deal. This is provided that the insurance company knows boats. I would insist on a surveyor that you picked. Not the insurance company. My concern is that when you flex fiberglass beyond its flex point, you have structurally damaged it. A repair is not going to make it the boat it was. It would have to be repaired inside and out to give it the strength of the original hull. However in those repair areas, the fiber glass will not flex like the existing hull, making a hard spot or a weak spot. For instance... Take a piece of windshield glass. Break it then repair it. This is like a fiberglass repair. Unless it is cut out and reinstalled perfectly. (fat chance!) If you sail your boat hard and run the risk of severe weather, don't let the insurance company nor the marina sell you on a repair. There is no way to truely make it the boat that it was. good luck remember preseverance pays off,(it is a good quality) r.w.landau
Bad advice
The average boat owner is better qualified to select a surveyor than an insurance company??? I don't think so. Insurance companies may try to get out for the smallest amount they can, but the last thing they want is for hidden damage that their surveyor didn't find to come back to bite them later. Let the insurance company handle it and send ...if you don't like what the first surveyor says, insist they send in another one that's NAMS certified. And another if necessary...You have that right. But anyone who takes a major claim out of the hands of their insurance company and into their own hands has a fool for a client.
The average boat owner is better qualified to select a surveyor than an insurance company??? I don't think so. Insurance companies may try to get out for the smallest amount they can, but the last thing they want is for hidden damage that their surveyor didn't find to come back to bite them later. Let the insurance company handle it and send ...if you don't like what the first surveyor says, insist they send in another one that's NAMS certified. And another if necessary...You have that right. But anyone who takes a major claim out of the hands of their insurance company and into their own hands has a fool for a client.
Peggy, I stand corrected
Peggy, Your method would be the way to go. My point was not to take the liability from the insurance company. My point was picking a surveyor that knew what he was doing. It is my understanding that Ocean racing boats can be disqualified if they do not meet a surveyors requirements. This could be at the end of any leg in a multi-leg race. The biggest reason would be structural. I have seen how insurance companies deal in home repairs. My concern would be that Sue would get a survey and have a repair done that would not bring the boat back to original condition. r.w.landau
Peggy, Your method would be the way to go. My point was not to take the liability from the insurance company. My point was picking a surveyor that knew what he was doing. It is my understanding that Ocean racing boats can be disqualified if they do not meet a surveyors requirements. This could be at the end of any leg in a multi-leg race. The biggest reason would be structural. I have seen how insurance companies deal in home repairs. My concern would be that Sue would get a survey and have a repair done that would not bring the boat back to original condition. r.w.landau
How to Address the Damage?
Your concerns about the overall stress on the boat and the potential for water seepage into the bottom laminate are very valid, and there are no doubt concerns you should have that you don't even know about. What I think we're all in agreement about is it's going to take a good surveyor - don't let the yard sweet-talk you otherwise. How to address the potential damage with the marina? Tell them that things look a LOT worse now than last fall and you're getting some professional advice. From a planning standpoint, plan on taking Chris's stand that they, or the insurance company, is going to buy the boat. The reasons being some of those that Mr Landau came up with, asuming the surveyor and insurance company agree, that there is no way they can put it back together again. It isn't going to be easy - the people that run the yards will be tough to deal with. Assuming you have insurance, part of your effort will be to convince the insurance company of your concerns because you're going to have them make it good. If you go through the insurance company you probably shouldn't be doing any more talking to the yard. Having said all this, my experience has not been good. I had a "marine" insurance policy through a respected agent in Seattle (Anchor Marine) and our boat was broken into whilegetting some work done at the yard (HCH in Seattle), again, a "respected" yard, and my stereo was stolen. This was several years ago when a unit with a CD changer, remote control, and a large number of CDs cost quite a few bucks (over 2,500 including damage). Yard said "not my fault", insurance company, agent, and my home insurance paid off their portion but provided no help what so ever in trying to get the deductables from the yard. Needless to say I've never been back to HCH and don't cary Anchor Marine insurance. But three deductables amounted to a lot. Hope your experience turns out better. P.S. Saw the HCH dealer with a new 50 foot Jenneau he was delivering in Alaska last summer, reminded him about the incident at his yard, and he said "Yea, that's really to bad!"
Your concerns about the overall stress on the boat and the potential for water seepage into the bottom laminate are very valid, and there are no doubt concerns you should have that you don't even know about. What I think we're all in agreement about is it's going to take a good surveyor - don't let the yard sweet-talk you otherwise. How to address the potential damage with the marina? Tell them that things look a LOT worse now than last fall and you're getting some professional advice. From a planning standpoint, plan on taking Chris's stand that they, or the insurance company, is going to buy the boat. The reasons being some of those that Mr Landau came up with, asuming the surveyor and insurance company agree, that there is no way they can put it back together again. It isn't going to be easy - the people that run the yards will be tough to deal with. Assuming you have insurance, part of your effort will be to convince the insurance company of your concerns because you're going to have them make it good. If you go through the insurance company you probably shouldn't be doing any more talking to the yard. Having said all this, my experience has not been good. I had a "marine" insurance policy through a respected agent in Seattle (Anchor Marine) and our boat was broken into whilegetting some work done at the yard (HCH in Seattle), again, a "respected" yard, and my stereo was stolen. This was several years ago when a unit with a CD changer, remote control, and a large number of CDs cost quite a few bucks (over 2,500 including damage). Yard said "not my fault", insurance company, agent, and my home insurance paid off their portion but provided no help what so ever in trying to get the deductables from the yard. Needless to say I've never been back to HCH and don't cary Anchor Marine insurance. But three deductables amounted to a lot. Hope your experience turns out better. P.S. Saw the HCH dealer with a new 50 foot Jenneau he was delivering in Alaska last summer, reminded him about the incident at his yard, and he said "Yea, that's really to bad!"
Advice
Peggie you are right about bad advice on this subject, but I would like to include SAMS surveyors as well as NAMS.
Peggie you are right about bad advice on this subject, but I would like to include SAMS surveyors as well as NAMS.
Big difference between recovering deductable
And making certain that all the damage is properly assessed. Your insurance companies paid as agreed under the terms of your policies...and had I been in your shoes, I'd have filed a suit against the yard in small claims court for the amount of my deductables.
And making certain that all the damage is properly assessed. Your insurance companies paid as agreed under the terms of your policies...and had I been in your shoes, I'd have filed a suit against the yard in small claims court for the amount of my deductables.
Along with the surveys and perry mason
Along with at least one reputable survey of the boat make sure that you take all the recommendations that are given to you by the surveyor and get at least three (or more) estimates to repair the damages. If the suit goes to court the judge as well as a jury, if they do that in your state, will want to see estimates of the damages done by the yard. Of course a good lawyer wil also advise you to do this.. A surveyor will not make estimates on the repair of your vessel as he is not in that business. He might give you an offhanded guess, but, that would be strictly from his experience in the repair, possibly from one in the distant past.. Good Luck......All the best......Denny P.
Along with at least one reputable survey of the boat make sure that you take all the recommendations that are given to you by the surveyor and get at least three (or more) estimates to repair the damages. If the suit goes to court the judge as well as a jury, if they do that in your state, will want to see estimates of the damages done by the yard. Of course a good lawyer wil also advise you to do this.. A surveyor will not make estimates on the repair of your vessel as he is not in that business. He might give you an offhanded guess, but, that would be strictly from his experience in the repair, possibly from one in the distant past.. Good Luck......All the best......Denny P.
Peggie's "Big Difference..........Deductible"
You're right about "should have taken them to small claims court". That statement is like rubbing salt in the wound!!! This was the winter with high winds then a second storm where a number of boat roof sheds collapsed under the weight of the snow and everybody was fratically trying to take care of claims. I was "led me to believe" they were going to take care of it and things kept being put off and then sailing season started, then too much time went by. But it still bugs me. You're right, I should'a! Too soon ve get alt und too soon ve get shmart! (or something like that - an old german saying)
You're right about "should have taken them to small claims court". That statement is like rubbing salt in the wound!!! This was the winter with high winds then a second storm where a number of boat roof sheds collapsed under the weight of the snow and everybody was fratically trying to take care of claims. I was "led me to believe" they were going to take care of it and things kept being put off and then sailing season started, then too much time went by. But it still bugs me. You're right, I should'a! Too soon ve get alt und too soon ve get shmart! (or something like that - an old german saying)
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