Main Sheet Tackle Block size question

Ward H

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,814
Catalina 30 Mk II Cedar Creek, Bayville NJ
I plan on upgrading the fiddle block on my main sheet tackle. Currently it is a Schaffer 4-1 system with the larger sheave appearing to be 2 1/4". White material. Bottom fiddle is black and seems to be newer.

First, is the sheave size the outer diameter or the bottom of the groove where the line runs?

My turning blocks for jib sheets and halyards are all Garhuaer Marines 25 series blocks which is listed as having a 1 3/4" sheave. These were recommended by Garhauer.
Their 30 series fiddle blocks have a 2 5/8" sheave.
Harken's main sheet load calculator shows my main sheet load to be around 628 lbs. at 25kts so both are well above SWL listed.
Main sheet is 5/16" line.

My thinking is the 30 series fiddle block would be a bit over kill for my 25' boat.

Yes?
No?

I will be asking Garhauer also but I appreciate your thoughts.
 
Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

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Oct 26, 2008
6,369
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I don't use fiddle blocks for this application because I don't like the smaller diameter of the inside blocks. Also, I don't really care for the way a stacked block looks for this application (I'm alright with fiddle blocks on the vang and the backstay adjustment, for instance). That said, are you replacing just one block assembly or top and bottom?
I would convert to a 6:1 system with a cam cleat on an adjustable angle. Strong winds on the bay will be better handled with more purchase. In fact, that's an upgrade I want to do now as well. This system from Harken has 57 mm sheave diameter (2-1/4"). I wouldn't go less than 2". I think you are right, the 30 series may be overkill. But I don't like the sheave diameter less than 2".
http://www.harken.com/content.aspx?id=3901
I know the Schaefer blocks are expensive so I like Harken. My choice would be the 57mm blocks identified in the 6:1 system for small boats. You can buy them at SBO store for the best price & service, I think.
 
dziedzicmj

dziedzicmj

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Aug 13, 2012
533
Catalina 270 Ottawa
If you consider upgrading to a 6:1 system, consider a 6:1/3:1 system that you can order from Garhauer. The 6:1 will give you better purchase at heavy loads and better fine tuning; the 3:1 would be a great help when you need to sheet in the main quickly (e.g. when gybing).
For a 25' boat, a 25-series system should be sufficient. If you like to have a better margin, use the 27-series system. The 30s have even bigger sheaves.
If you upgrade to the Garhauer blocks, you will be surprised how well they work (how little friction they have under load).
Attached is a picture of a 6:1/3:1 main sheet tackle on a C270.
20140830_160646.jpg
 
Brian S

Brian S

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Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Dzied, howzzat work? Pull one line for 3:1, pull both lines for 6:1? I've always been curious about the 2 purchase mainsheet systems, never sailed on a boat that had one.
 
dziedzicmj

dziedzicmj

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Aug 13, 2012
533
Catalina 270 Ottawa
The other way around - you pull one for 6:1 and you pull both for 3:1. Works like a charm.

If you want to make it really great, you may want to splice the line into a single continuous sheet. Without it, you need to adjust each side of it occasionally. I do it after a day's sail or so.

Marek
 
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Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Brian S said:
Dzied, howzzat work? Pull one line for 3:1, pull both lines for 6:1? I've always been curious about the 2 purchase mainsheet systems, never sailed on a boat that had one.
Click to expand
Correct. We use a similar Harken system on BlueJ, and it's fabulous. The nice part of the Harken is that it has clickers on the lower block, allowing you to hold the line under load without re-cleating. Nice for playing in breeze. For cabin-top setups, not such a big deal.
 
Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

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Oct 26, 2008
6,369
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
004.JPG
Hmmm ... I was not aware. Thx for bringing this up, Ward! How does the ratchet hold the line? Is it like a brake assist? If you let go, I assume the line runs free, no? I take it that the difference between the Garhauer & the Harken is the split boom attachment versus a fiddle-type arrangement. I'm thinking the Harken is simplest for my existing set-up.
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Here is the Harken setup. Notice the white thumb lever on the lower block. When turned on this stops the wheel from turning backwards. The wheel has a slight tooth to it (kinda like a ST winch top) than holds the line if you apply some breaking pressure to it. That allows the trimmer to hold the sheet while under considerable load without cleating it.... a boon in puffy conditions.

The clear angle is also adjustable. A big deal for getting this in the correct spot.

 
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Ward H

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,814
Catalina 30 Mk II Cedar Creek, Bayville NJ
Joe,
Good link. Reinforces my plan to go with Garhauer. I'm a fan of their hardware and they have great service.
dziedzicmj said:
For a 25' boat, a 25-series system should be sufficient. If you like to have a better margin, use the 27-series system. The 30s have even bigger sheaves.
If you upgrade to the Garhauer blocks, you will be surprised how well they work (how little friction they have under load).
Click to expand
Dzied,
Guido at Garhauer agrees, he recommended the series 25 blocks but I had missed the 27 series. Think I'll go with those which have the bigger shackle and same size, 2 1/4", sheaves as I have now. The Garhauer blocks will be a huge improvement over the non BB blocks I have now without having to go to the cost of a 6:1 arrangement
Very nice set up you have on your C 270.

Scott, the larger sheave on the upper fiddle block needs replacement. Could get by with just replacing the sheave but where's the fun in that. This gives me the excuse to update the main sheet tackle, then replace the worn sheave with a new delrin sheave and repurpose as a boom vang. The vang I have now has a v for cleating.
I like Harken for their 29mm Carbo blocks for smaller line needs but when I need a larger block I think Garhauer offers a better value. I'll put the money I save into my new traveler, which is my August project.
 
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woodster

woodster

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Sep 15, 2009
6,244
S2 9.2a Fairhope Al
Jackdaw said:
Here is the Harken setup. Notice the white thumb lever on the lower block. When turned on this stops the wheel from turning backwards. The wheel has a slight tooth to it (kinda like a ST winch top) than holds the line if you apply some breaking pressure to it. That allows the trimmer to hold the sheet while under considerable load without cleating it.... a boon in puffy conditions.

Click to expand
i have that same one made in denmark by Bear or something like that was wondering what to do wit it now i know
 
pateco

pateco

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Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
This is what my original system looked like. It ran forward along the boom down the mast to a block, then through the deck organizer, and back to the starboard cabin top winch.

2015-06-21 16.07.31.jpg


I changed to this. triple with cam and becket. It is much much easier to trim, and has fewer parts. now I just need to shorten up the old sheet.
2015-07-11 18.23.42.jpg
 
Ward H

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,814
Catalina 30 Mk II Cedar Creek, Bayville NJ
There you go Scott. JD explained it. I use a Harken Carbo ratchet block as a turning block for my furling line. Helps to hold the line when furling.
On the link you posted to the Harken main sheet arrangements they show the ratchet lower block for the 4:1 setup but they also offer it without the ratchet at a lower cost. Maybe they also do for the 6:1?
Garhauer doesn't show a 6:1 on their website but they don't show Dzied's set up either. I'm sure they could set you up with a single point boom attachment like Harken uses for a 6:1 arrangement if you called and asked.
 
Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

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Oct 26, 2008
6,369
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
037.JPG
My existing block is actually 5:1, so I'm intrigued by the 3:1/6:1 arrangement. I don't like the angle on mine because it is difficult to cleat the line unless your hand is right over the block. I can't cleat it from behind the wheel, for instance. I knew the adjustable cleat angle was available and a plus, I just didn't know about the split system. I wonder how Sue will adapt to 2 lines instead of 1? It's sure to get a dirty look the first time she sees it, at a minimum. She likes simple, I like technical. We butt heads over these things a lot. :frown:
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Scott T-Bird said:
My existing block is actually 5:1, so I'm intrigued by the 3:1/6:1 arrangement. I don't like the angle on mine because it is difficult to cleat the line unless your hand is right over the block. I can't cleat it from behind the wheel, for instance. I knew the adjustable cleat angle was available and a plus, I just didn't know about the split system. I wonder how Sue will adapt to 2 lines instead of 1? It's sure to get a dirty look the first time she sees it, at a minimum. She likes simple, I like technical. We butt heads over these things a lot. :frown:
Click to expand
Based on my personal and my main trimmers (usually female) experience, you very quickly get used to the dual lines. Grabbing them both makes for very fast 3:1 retrieval, and when it gets hard you let one go and just do one at 6:1. It's pretty intuitive.

Only niggle is if you always grab the same single, you will eventually run out of line on one side, and need to re-balance it. Not a big deal. We make the sheet in the middle so we can center it.

The adjustable angle is key for good releases. I like Garhauer stuff in general but Harken gear is much better engineered and designed for sailors.

Oh and it uses a VERY long sheet. ;^) I think my main sheet is close to 80 feet long.
 
dziedzicmj

dziedzicmj

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Aug 13, 2012
533
Catalina 270 Ottawa
Ward H said:
Garhauer doesn't show a 6:1 on their website
Click to expand
They have is as part of their vang arrangement. I think it is a series 30 block. But if you talk to Guido or Mark, they will find it for you. Or mention that this is the same set-up that the Canadians buy for C270s. Mine is not the first one.

Marek
 
dziedzicmj

dziedzicmj

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Aug 13, 2012
533
Catalina 270 Ottawa
Jackdaw said:
Oh and it uses a VERY long sheet. ;^) I think my main sheet is close to 80 feet long.
Click to expand
Mine is 70', but I could cut it. But this would make it easier to get to one of the ends. When in use it lives in the companion way, so it is out of the way.
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
dziedzicmj said:
If you want to make it really great, you may want to splice the line into a single continuous sheet. Without it, you need to adjust each side of it occasionally. I do it after a day's sail or so.
Click to expand
The spice would never go thought the sheaves without a struggle, and the hard spot would be nasty when inside the blocking. Stick with a single long line.
 
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dziedzicmj

dziedzicmj

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Aug 13, 2012
533
Catalina 270 Ottawa
Jackdaw,
  1. I thought the same thing, so I did not even consider splicing
  2. I am not that good in splicing (actually, I am terrible), so I would never trust a spliced line as a main sheet.
No, not for me.

And adjusting it every so often is not a big deal. At least not for me.
 
Meriachee

Meriachee

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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
I think ours is 55'. It's a much better way to deal with the main.
 
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