As my previous post indicated, I am a former Mac-26 owner ready to purchase a H26 or 260. I have recently seen articles in the current forum and archives about the ability to sail the H26 with Main or (JIB?) alone in heavy weather. I was never able to do this with the Mac as you always had to have a little of both to maintain steerage. Could I get additional responses on the h26/260 ability to handle heavy weather under a single sail? Thanks....Keith
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Similar???
My last trip of the year was with a first timer and we got caught 12 miles out with 35kt winds with gusts to 40+. Not a very safe sail,but I was basically single handling so I left only my jib up.We spent much time heeled over to redline(on the inclinonmeter)but never took on any water over the side. Personally I find the jib easier when single handling, I also don't seem to have the speed with the main that I get from the jib. Your boat may be different.
My last trip of the year was with a first timer and we got caught 12 miles out with 35kt winds with gusts to 40+. Not a very safe sail,but I was basically single handling so I left only my jib up.We spent much time heeled over to redline(on the inclinonmeter)but never took on any water over the side. Personally I find the jib easier when single handling, I also don't seem to have the speed with the main that I get from the jib. Your boat may be different.
The Main is your safety valve!
This is a great topic for discussion because I'm sure that I'll learn something from the string of responses that follow. It has always looked strange for me to see boats sailing with the Jib deployed alone. I've always preferred weather helm and have thought of this as being a safety valve (rounding up into the wind and luffing). Heavy weather isn't something that I'm accustomed to on my H26, but I have experienced 30-w/35 gusts and 8 ft. seas. That's the max for me! Beyond that I think I'd be before the wind and taking the weather on the transom with a drouge devise out to slow the boat and prevent surfing and the companionway boards in. When running I think it would be ok to have the Jib deployed if you have roller furling and are able to reef to manage the overpowering effect. One problem I've encountered when reefing the jib under heavy strain is that the furling line must be wound tightly on the furling bail or the outside of the winding will strain and pull into the inner portion of the reel and jam. Then you'll wish that you had reeft the Main and doused the Jib. I have made it standard procedure to apply a little resistance on the furling line when I deploy the Jib so that the reel is tightly wound. Another consideration for the roller furling is the diameter of the bail. The larger the diameter, the more mechanical advantage you'll have when you want to reduce sail. I guess that a lot of skippers feel that it's easier to furl the jib than it is the Main, because they don't have to leave the tiller, but jiffy reefing (controlled from the cockpit) and maybe even lazy jacks can make the process much more comfortable while single handed. I bought a Navico TP100 autopilot (plenty of power for a h26) and don't mind leaving the cockpit, when I heave to, to reef the Main. With a good weather eye it will serve you and your passenger well to reef early. I get some curious looks for doing this but it has alway kept the terror level down to an acceptable intensity. I find that the Hunter sails very well with the main reef, much to the amazement of onlooking sailors. Heavy weather has different meaning for everyone, but I consider it to be when there is a distinct possibility of an uncontrollable broach. In that event I'd want to have weather helm and a dam good harnessing system. I look forward to the perspective of others because it helps to make informed decisions when I'm trapped by unpredicted weather, if I have a broad spectrum of information to draw on. Thanks for the question, IT"S A GOOD ONE! Larry Barnes vessel "CNTRL SEA"
This is a great topic for discussion because I'm sure that I'll learn something from the string of responses that follow. It has always looked strange for me to see boats sailing with the Jib deployed alone. I've always preferred weather helm and have thought of this as being a safety valve (rounding up into the wind and luffing). Heavy weather isn't something that I'm accustomed to on my H26, but I have experienced 30-w/35 gusts and 8 ft. seas. That's the max for me! Beyond that I think I'd be before the wind and taking the weather on the transom with a drouge devise out to slow the boat and prevent surfing and the companionway boards in. When running I think it would be ok to have the Jib deployed if you have roller furling and are able to reef to manage the overpowering effect. One problem I've encountered when reefing the jib under heavy strain is that the furling line must be wound tightly on the furling bail or the outside of the winding will strain and pull into the inner portion of the reel and jam. Then you'll wish that you had reeft the Main and doused the Jib. I have made it standard procedure to apply a little resistance on the furling line when I deploy the Jib so that the reel is tightly wound. Another consideration for the roller furling is the diameter of the bail. The larger the diameter, the more mechanical advantage you'll have when you want to reduce sail. I guess that a lot of skippers feel that it's easier to furl the jib than it is the Main, because they don't have to leave the tiller, but jiffy reefing (controlled from the cockpit) and maybe even lazy jacks can make the process much more comfortable while single handed. I bought a Navico TP100 autopilot (plenty of power for a h26) and don't mind leaving the cockpit, when I heave to, to reef the Main. With a good weather eye it will serve you and your passenger well to reef early. I get some curious looks for doing this but it has alway kept the terror level down to an acceptable intensity. I find that the Hunter sails very well with the main reef, much to the amazement of onlooking sailors. Heavy weather has different meaning for everyone, but I consider it to be when there is a distinct possibility of an uncontrollable broach. In that event I'd want to have weather helm and a dam good harnessing system. I look forward to the perspective of others because it helps to make informed decisions when I'm trapped by unpredicted weather, if I have a broad spectrum of information to draw on. Thanks for the question, IT"S A GOOD ONE! Larry Barnes vessel "CNTRL SEA"
options
sailing on the main alone would give a more gentle ride for passengers, but if you're serious about making time to windward, you need a little head sail. I added a couple blocks for my single line reefing so I can pull down on the luff tack at the same time. For racing, this allows me to take the reef out at the windward mark in less than 30 seconds and put it in right before the leeward mark. Sometimes, it is nice to use the headsail or spinaker alone going downwind so the main doesn't chafe on the aft monted side stays, similar to cats. By the way, spinakers on this boat aren't for the light of heart on windy days, as they can be quite a handful.
sailing on the main alone would give a more gentle ride for passengers, but if you're serious about making time to windward, you need a little head sail. I added a couple blocks for my single line reefing so I can pull down on the luff tack at the same time. For racing, this allows me to take the reef out at the windward mark in less than 30 seconds and put it in right before the leeward mark. Sometimes, it is nice to use the headsail or spinaker alone going downwind so the main doesn't chafe on the aft monted side stays, similar to cats. By the way, spinakers on this boat aren't for the light of heart on windy days, as they can be quite a handful.
Sailing the 26 & 260
Keith; Both the Hunter 26 & 260 are the same hull but with significant changes on the deck plus the wheel steering option. first, I probably have more time sailing the Hunterf 26 & 260 than anyone in the world. I will give you my input what I tell my customers. First the boat sails flatter faster. Do not heel over 13-15 degrees or you will be fighting the boat and loose performance. Above 10 knots, I will start to reef the jib if you have roller furling. 15-17 knots, be on reefed main only. If the wind gusts are stronger, either get a second reef or come in. At one time or another, we all get into a strong wind situation and must act accordingly. First, keep a cool head. Follow the above suggestions. You may have to let the sheets out too to keep the heel suggested. Also, check the rudder so that it is down all the way. The above will apply for the 260 wing keel as well. What ever you decide, good luck and happy sailing. I am not perfert. I can tell you about launching a car into the water with the engine running too. Not funny at the time but it is now. The front of the car dove like the Titanic. Got to run to walk with the better half or I will be murdered. Ha! Crazy Dave Condon
Keith; Both the Hunter 26 & 260 are the same hull but with significant changes on the deck plus the wheel steering option. first, I probably have more time sailing the Hunterf 26 & 260 than anyone in the world. I will give you my input what I tell my customers. First the boat sails flatter faster. Do not heel over 13-15 degrees or you will be fighting the boat and loose performance. Above 10 knots, I will start to reef the jib if you have roller furling. 15-17 knots, be on reefed main only. If the wind gusts are stronger, either get a second reef or come in. At one time or another, we all get into a strong wind situation and must act accordingly. First, keep a cool head. Follow the above suggestions. You may have to let the sheets out too to keep the heel suggested. Also, check the rudder so that it is down all the way. The above will apply for the 260 wing keel as well. What ever you decide, good luck and happy sailing. I am not perfert. I can tell you about launching a car into the water with the engine running too. Not funny at the time but it is now. The front of the car dove like the Titanic. Got to run to walk with the better half or I will be murdered. Ha! Crazy Dave Condon
Impact on Rigging?
Does Dave Condon or anyone care to comment on whether or not there is too much strain on the rigging IF one chose to sail with only the jib and no main? I recall a dealer once told me that it's not a good idea to do so. Any thoughts?
Does Dave Condon or anyone care to comment on whether or not there is too much strain on the rigging IF one chose to sail with only the jib and no main? I recall a dealer once told me that it's not a good idea to do so. Any thoughts?
Jib alone
New Years day we were out in a fairly fresh breeze. To reduce the fears of my family, I reduced sail. I chose running under jib alone for the 1st time. I have a 23 which is a fairly simple and rugged old boat. I found no problem with the jib only configuration with only a slight lee helm, good speed and no serious heeling problems. If it didn't look so odd, I use this setup more often but a boats gota have a main of some sort or you start to look E X P E R M I N T A L (Oh NO!!!)!
New Years day we were out in a fairly fresh breeze. To reduce the fears of my family, I reduced sail. I chose running under jib alone for the 1st time. I have a 23 which is a fairly simple and rugged old boat. I found no problem with the jib only configuration with only a slight lee helm, good speed and no serious heeling problems. If it didn't look so odd, I use this setup more often but a boats gota have a main of some sort or you start to look E X P E R M I N T A L (Oh NO!!!)!
Why does Hunter say to raise the main first?
The owner's manual for my 23.5 & 26 always said to raise the main first and lower it last. I always assumed there must be a reason for this so that his how I have always done it. With the small jib and the mast forward, I have always found the boat to be very capable when sailing with the mainsail only. True, it won't point as high and it seems to ride bow up, but it will still get the job done. As for jib alone, as small as the jib is on H26, I can't imagine getting much drive out of it. Usually, my reefing strategy is, first reef and roll in the jib two turns at 12 knots, around 17 knots roll up the jib. 20-25 knots, main only, if wife is on board, I am in deep doo-doo, so I might as well sink and get it over with. Seriously though, we sailed from Rasberry Island to Bayfield, WI with 25 knots on the beam with the main alone. The boat handled fine and was manageable. Mike Pajewski H26 "Loon"
The owner's manual for my 23.5 & 26 always said to raise the main first and lower it last. I always assumed there must be a reason for this so that his how I have always done it. With the small jib and the mast forward, I have always found the boat to be very capable when sailing with the mainsail only. True, it won't point as high and it seems to ride bow up, but it will still get the job done. As for jib alone, as small as the jib is on H26, I can't imagine getting much drive out of it. Usually, my reefing strategy is, first reef and roll in the jib two turns at 12 knots, around 17 knots roll up the jib. 20-25 knots, main only, if wife is on board, I am in deep doo-doo, so I might as well sink and get it over with. Seriously though, we sailed from Rasberry Island to Bayfield, WI with 25 knots on the beam with the main alone. The boat handled fine and was manageable. Mike Pajewski H26 "Loon"
Why does Hunter say to raise the main first?
The owner's manual for my 23.5 & 26 always said to raise the main first and lower it last. I always assumed there must be a reason for this so that his how I have always done it. With the small jib and the mast forward, I have always found the boat to be very capable when sailing with the mainsail only. True, it won't point as high and it seems to ride bow up, but it will still get the job done. As for jib alone, as small as the jib is on H26, I can't imagine getting much drive out of it. Usually, my reefing strategy is, first reef and roll in the jib two turns at 12 knots, around 17 knots roll up the jib. 20-25 knots, main only, if wife is on board, I am in deep doo-doo, so I might as well sink and get it over with. Seriously though, we sailed from Rasberry Island to Bayfield, WI with 25 knots on the beam with the main alone. The boat handled fine and was manageable. Mike Pajewski H26 "Loon"
The owner's manual for my 23.5 & 26 always said to raise the main first and lower it last. I always assumed there must be a reason for this so that his how I have always done it. With the small jib and the mast forward, I have always found the boat to be very capable when sailing with the mainsail only. True, it won't point as high and it seems to ride bow up, but it will still get the job done. As for jib alone, as small as the jib is on H26, I can't imagine getting much drive out of it. Usually, my reefing strategy is, first reef and roll in the jib two turns at 12 knots, around 17 knots roll up the jib. 20-25 knots, main only, if wife is on board, I am in deep doo-doo, so I might as well sink and get it over with. Seriously though, we sailed from Rasberry Island to Bayfield, WI with 25 knots on the beam with the main alone. The boat handled fine and was manageable. Mike Pajewski H26 "Loon"
Why to hoist the main first and drop it last
There are too many interesting issues raised in this thread and too little time to respond to them all. Let's just tackle this one issue now. To understand why you should normally raise and drop the headsail (genoa, jib, staysail) first, imagine you are flying both mainsail and headsail and have decided to head up and drop the main first. Even with both sails tightly sheeted in the headsail will start to luff -- and then flog -- before the main is luffing enough to let it drop freely. So, the whole time you are trying to deal with the main the headsail is trying to self-destruct, while making the foredeck unsafe (clew flying around) and distracting everyone on board from the task at hand. Therefore it is generally advisable to drop the headsail first. When setting sail, there is an additional reason to hoist the main first. Typically, one motors into the wind to hoist sail and then reduces motoring speed as far as possible to avoid unnecessary windage and slamming into the waves, while keeping just enough speed on to avoid getting stopped by the waves and lose control of the bow (remember; the rudder only works as long as it keeps moving through the water.....). In this situation, setting the headsail first would add to the tendency of the bow to blow off, thus requiring more speed and creating unnecessary windage while hoisting the main (aside from the fact that the headsail would be flogging again throughout the entire procedure). If, for whatever reason (e.g. your engine won't start and/or the headsail roller furling tends to jam), you want to drop or hoist the main while leaving the headsail up there are a few tricks to reduce its flogging tendency. The easiest method is to head up till the tightly sheeted headsail starts luffing slightly, then keep that course and move the boom to leeward till it points straight into the apparent wind direction. Don't forget to use the traveler or a preventer to prevent the boom from slamming back and forth (particularly if you need to leave the cockpit to flake or tie down the sail). Now you should be able to raise or drop the mainsail. Note that this is the same trick of bringing only the boom into the wind-- rather than the entire vessel -- also used in some of the "easy" reefing procedures discussed in an earlier thread. Throughout all of this it is important to sheet the jib as far as possible inboard. This is easiest if you happen to have a staysail with a high cut foot. On Rivendel II we can sheet the clew of the staysail anywhere between port and starboard, including amidships, by using both sheets. If you have a full-sized furling jib you may be able to furl it 20-30% and then sheet it inboard the same way, i.e. by putting tension on the lazy (windward) sheet. If none of this is possible you can try to attach a temporary third sheet to the jib clew and run it to one of the winches via an inboard snatchblock, provided the leech clears the lower spreaders (with B&R rigs this will usually be true for genoas that are 110 % or less). Have fun! Flying Dutchman
There are too many interesting issues raised in this thread and too little time to respond to them all. Let's just tackle this one issue now. To understand why you should normally raise and drop the headsail (genoa, jib, staysail) first, imagine you are flying both mainsail and headsail and have decided to head up and drop the main first. Even with both sails tightly sheeted in the headsail will start to luff -- and then flog -- before the main is luffing enough to let it drop freely. So, the whole time you are trying to deal with the main the headsail is trying to self-destruct, while making the foredeck unsafe (clew flying around) and distracting everyone on board from the task at hand. Therefore it is generally advisable to drop the headsail first. When setting sail, there is an additional reason to hoist the main first. Typically, one motors into the wind to hoist sail and then reduces motoring speed as far as possible to avoid unnecessary windage and slamming into the waves, while keeping just enough speed on to avoid getting stopped by the waves and lose control of the bow (remember; the rudder only works as long as it keeps moving through the water.....). In this situation, setting the headsail first would add to the tendency of the bow to blow off, thus requiring more speed and creating unnecessary windage while hoisting the main (aside from the fact that the headsail would be flogging again throughout the entire procedure). If, for whatever reason (e.g. your engine won't start and/or the headsail roller furling tends to jam), you want to drop or hoist the main while leaving the headsail up there are a few tricks to reduce its flogging tendency. The easiest method is to head up till the tightly sheeted headsail starts luffing slightly, then keep that course and move the boom to leeward till it points straight into the apparent wind direction. Don't forget to use the traveler or a preventer to prevent the boom from slamming back and forth (particularly if you need to leave the cockpit to flake or tie down the sail). Now you should be able to raise or drop the mainsail. Note that this is the same trick of bringing only the boom into the wind-- rather than the entire vessel -- also used in some of the "easy" reefing procedures discussed in an earlier thread. Throughout all of this it is important to sheet the jib as far as possible inboard. This is easiest if you happen to have a staysail with a high cut foot. On Rivendel II we can sheet the clew of the staysail anywhere between port and starboard, including amidships, by using both sheets. If you have a full-sized furling jib you may be able to furl it 20-30% and then sheet it inboard the same way, i.e. by putting tension on the lazy (windward) sheet. If none of this is possible you can try to attach a temporary third sheet to the jib clew and run it to one of the winches via an inboard snatchblock, provided the leech clears the lower spreaders (with B&R rigs this will usually be true for genoas that are 110 % or less). Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Response
Responding to ron/s question, I was caught up to 38-40 knots once on the Chesepeake Bay and they rigging held. It may have stretched in time but that is normal for new rigging. There is so much discussion on which sail to rasie first but as I have always said, experience is the best judge and on that point, I recommend raising the main first and lowering it last on the 26 and 260 with the number of hours I have sailed the boats.
Responding to ron/s question, I was caught up to 38-40 knots once on the Chesepeake Bay and they rigging held. It may have stretched in time but that is normal for new rigging. There is so much discussion on which sail to rasie first but as I have always said, experience is the best judge and on that point, I recommend raising the main first and lowering it last on the 26 and 260 with the number of hours I have sailed the boats.
Sorry guys, I made a mess; some corrections...
I will have to stop trying to write these posts at such ungodly hours. Couldn't believe what I wrote before dawn today. I left three words out of the first paragraph and messed up the title to boot! The title should have been: "Why to raise the main FIRST and drop it LAST". The first paragraph should have read" "To understand why you should normally raise THE MAIN FIRST and drop the headsail (genoa, jib, staysail) first............." The rest was OK (I hope). Flying Dutchman
I will have to stop trying to write these posts at such ungodly hours. Couldn't believe what I wrote before dawn today. I left three words out of the first paragraph and messed up the title to boot! The title should have been: "Why to raise the main FIRST and drop it LAST". The first paragraph should have read" "To understand why you should normally raise THE MAIN FIRST and drop the headsail (genoa, jib, staysail) first............." The rest was OK (I hope). Flying Dutchman
full length battons
Reguarding the logic of the main up 1st and down last, the H260 with upper full length battons and any full length batton sail, tend to bind more when raising and lowering. This is why it is more important to be directly upwind when raising and lowering to minimize the tensions. Larger sailboats use batton cars to minimize this binding. raising the headsail 1st would require unnecessarily flogging the headsail while raising the main, plus one would loose the safety of naturally heading into the wind and stopping, if necessary.
Reguarding the logic of the main up 1st and down last, the H260 with upper full length battons and any full length batton sail, tend to bind more when raising and lowering. This is why it is more important to be directly upwind when raising and lowering to minimize the tensions. Larger sailboats use batton cars to minimize this binding. raising the headsail 1st would require unnecessarily flogging the headsail while raising the main, plus one would loose the safety of naturally heading into the wind and stopping, if necessary.
It depends...
I think there are many variables that can affect this decision, such as point of sail (going to weather vs running), roller furling vs. hank-on jib, sailplan proportions (small jib & large main vs genoa & small main), experience and confidence level of skipper, crew and passengers, etc. etc. In my dinghy sailing days, the jib usually came down first if the wind piped up, unless home was downwind, in which case I would round up, drop the main and run off under the jib alone. At the other extreme, I have had to sail a 40 ft keelboat upwind offshore in 25-30 kt winds and 6-8 ft seas with only one (very inexperienced) crew member. Thanks to roller furling on the genoa and in-mast furling on the main, I was able to reduce both sails about 50% from the cockpit, and maintained full control and good boatspeed with a balanced sailplan. My H23 has a hank-on 110 jib. If the wind picks up, I reef the main early to try and keep the boat fairly flat. If the wind continues to build, I try to use sail trim to depower the rig as much as possible. If that doesn't work, down comes the jib. Now, if I had roller furling... Peter s/v Raven
I think there are many variables that can affect this decision, such as point of sail (going to weather vs running), roller furling vs. hank-on jib, sailplan proportions (small jib & large main vs genoa & small main), experience and confidence level of skipper, crew and passengers, etc. etc. In my dinghy sailing days, the jib usually came down first if the wind piped up, unless home was downwind, in which case I would round up, drop the main and run off under the jib alone. At the other extreme, I have had to sail a 40 ft keelboat upwind offshore in 25-30 kt winds and 6-8 ft seas with only one (very inexperienced) crew member. Thanks to roller furling on the genoa and in-mast furling on the main, I was able to reduce both sails about 50% from the cockpit, and maintained full control and good boatspeed with a balanced sailplan. My H23 has a hank-on 110 jib. If the wind picks up, I reef the main early to try and keep the boat fairly flat. If the wind continues to build, I try to use sail trim to depower the rig as much as possible. If that doesn't work, down comes the jib. Now, if I had roller furling... Peter s/v Raven
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