Magnetically Shielded Cockpit Speakers

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Jan 6, 2012
27
Hunter 29.5 Auckland, New Zealand
Hi does anyone have any experience magnetically shielded speakers in the cockpit about 2 feet away from the autohelm compass?


When I bought my boat it had some rusted out cockpit speakers, I put some new sony marine speakers in but my auto pilot has gremlins which may or may not be as a result of changing speakers,I suspect I need magnetically shielded cockpit speakers.

I have removed the sony’s so I can test the theory this weekened, if the auto pilot works then I will look for some magnetically shielded speakers 6” or 6.5”

Has anyone experience of how well the magnetic sheilding works or perhaps another speaker suggestion?

I’m thinking either this Jensen:
http://www.amazon.com/MS6151DC-Jens...=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1338328353&sr=1-1

Or this Ploy-Planar;
http://www.amazon.com/Poly-Planar-6...ectronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1338331237&sr=1-1-spell




 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
WE used to air ship magnetrons in soft steel lined wooden crates. You don't get magnets much stronger than those. The first thing to do is check with a hand held compass. Just making a steel cage of 8 mesh hardware cloth may be enough.
 
Feb 22, 2012
34
S2 8.5 1983 Seattle
I Have A Set In My Cockpit Mounted Facing Forward Under The Rear Of "t'' Shaped Cockpit. They Are Not Advertised As Shielded But Are Magnetically Neutral And Have No Effect On The Steering Compass. Polypropeline Cones, Plastic Grills. Last Set I Had Sounded Great For Over 10 Years In Salt Water. Look For "poly-planer" Brand.
 
Jan 6, 2012
27
Hunter 29.5 Auckland, New Zealand
Thank you both, good to know how to make a sheild for them too.
I will try to get some ploy-planer ones here in new zealand
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I've seen some for home use, but when concerned with compass proximity, are they shielded on the cone side- the front- also?
 
Dec 2, 2003
1,637
Hunter 376 Warsash, England --
My boat came new with TWO speakers in the steering console. They are on each side and only 30" below and ahead of the binnacle. Consequently adjusting the compass was a hopeless task - but we tried - and never got the error to less than 10°.
Useless for navigation.

My main steering compass has to be the Raymarine fluxgate autopilot compass mounted away from all metals in a locker. (Except when somebody put a spiral bound book against it!) The display is on the console.

Then, on one windy day, my pal managed to kick in both speaker grilles.
I made stainless guards and replaced both speakers with marine twin cone magnetically shielded types.
The binnacle was worse to set up and I have now almost abandoned it for anything other than detecting wind shifts.

I would imagine you will have the same problems.

Even magnetically shielded magnetic iron has a presence and, even if perfectly shielded, will behave just like any other lump of iron of the same weight. So will deflect your compass. In lay terms it is just that it will not radiate lines of magnetism.

The moral is to mount the autopilot's compass at least a yard and a half from any steel or iron.
 
Sep 25, 2008
1,096
CS 30 Toronto
Use computer speakers, they are magnetically shielded in order not to interfere with the monitor. Just spray the cone with 3M waterproof stuff, or put a Sunbella cover over them. I have a pair under the dodger to stay out of direct rain. Has been 5 years.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
The Kicker branded KM series marine speakers are magnetically shielded, in order to MINIMIZE compass deviation. This is accomplished with both a bucking magnet and a low carbon steel cup around the entire motor assembly. The tweeter motor is a rare earth neodymium design which is inherently shielded. Note my emphasis on minimize above, as any ferous material brought on-board and especially nead the compass has a potential to affect a compass' reading.

My personal testing and experience says that 24" is often enough separation between the Kicker Marine speaker and the compass, but that being said, any compass manufacturer will tell you a loudspeaker is probably the worst offender on a boat for compass deviation. Anything you can do to increase distance between speaker and magnetic compass, either binnacle or auto-pilot flux gate will be helpful.

Be wary of computer speakers and simply acccepting them blindly as shielded. With today's flat screens, magnetic shielding is not really an issue for computer or home theater use, and many speaker builders have dropped the shielding for this reason, in order to improve margins.

One crazy suggestion:
As I mentioned above, most rare earth neodymium loudspeaker motors are inherently shielded, due to the design of the motor; the small, powerful magnetic slug lives inside the motor, (compared to the ceramic donut magnets found on traditional loudspeakers) and the magnetic flux path is self-shielding. One could take advantage of the resonant nature of the typical verticals wall that defines the cockpit, either just above or just below the seats. Try using a small tactile transducer like can be found here:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-221

One can use these, attatched to a vertical wall of the cockpit from INSIDE the cockpit liner, in place of a traditional cut-the-hole, kick-the-grill-in, rusty and leaky loudspeaker. These transducers feature rare-earth motors, and are 4-ohms so they will connect up like a normal automotive or marine loudspeaker. There is no hole to cut, and no grill to kick in....

These will work best in un-cored flat fiberglass panels like are often found at about the small of your back or right behind your calves in a typical sailboat cockpit. If these panels are cored in your boat, poke around to see if you can find a flat section of fiberglass in your cockpit that is not cored and mount them there.

My recommendation sounds so whacky as to seem improbable, but trust me, if you try it you will be impressed. The small self-shielding motors will be less interference with a compass when mounted sufficiently far away when compared with even a larger shielded loudspeaker. The unusually large radiating surface of the large flat expanse of fiberglass will provide efficiences usually equal to and often louder than a traditional speaker. Frequency resonse will be different but that is why we have tone controls on our radios....

Something to ponder....
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Donalex is right

I would just move the compass for the auto piilot, rather than diddle around with trying to find speakers, or trying to shield them. Any ferrous metal close to the compass is going to effect it in some way. Ray marine recommends the compass be mounted as close to the center line of the boat, and as low as possible. They come with plenty of wire, so just move it and get it right.
 
Jan 6, 2012
27
Hunter 29.5 Auckland, New Zealand
Thanks I’ll look at the fluxgate location again but I fear further from the speakers may be closer to something else, engine etc.

I unfortunately have holes in the cockpit where the old speakers were so I would like to at least try to get speakers with the best magnetical shielding, there is no measurement listed in any of the manufactures specifications for how effective the shielding will be. Some claim complete shielding while some claim low magnetic field which may turn out to be exactly the same.
To give it the best shot I was hoping to find out which offered the best shielding and test those, that would be the easiest option.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Using your handbearing compass to check these claims may be your safest option.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
deangraham said:
There is no measurement listed in any of the manufactures specifications for how effective the shielding will be. Some claim complete shielding while some claim low magnetic field which may turn out to be exactly the same.
To give it the best shot I was hoping to find out which offered the best shielding and test those, that would be the easiest option.
Dean, I am in a precarious position, as I am the product manager behind the Kicker marine product. I need to stop short of an advertisement so let me choose my words carefully. Still, I think my background and knowledge of the topic is best shared, despite my brand affiliation; marine audio gear is my responsibility between 8 and 5....

First off, know that not all of the Kicker marine gear I am responsible for is shielded. The KM6000 coaxial speaker is not shielded. Not at all. Don't choose that model for your application.

The KM6200 coaxial is substantially shielded, and based ironically on research just today I think I can suggest it might be the most shielded speaker on the market. This is not a guarantee, just a hunch. (stopping short of advertising here, or not... :D).

You will find other marine speakers on the market that claim "low magnetic field design" but based on what I know, that term probably just implies small-magnet motors.

Know there are no easily identified specs for magnetic shielding; were loudspeaker manufacturers to provide them they would necessarily be a series of polar graphs; probably a minimum of 3, with one for each of the X, Y, and Z axes as viewed in a CAD file. You get different stray magnetism at different angles, even from a shielded speaker.

Additionally, know that with the exception of piezoelectric transducers, (speakers) you cannot totally eliminate the magnet and it's effects. Any speaker, shielded or not will affect a compass when in close proximity, just like an iron bar, or the 3-ring binder previously mentioned. If a speaker manufacturer claims complete shielding, the speaker is either piezoelectric, (unlikely) or they are flat lying.

I need to stop short, about right here, in order to stay objective. You have options, but you need to broaden your search a little. Your solution may be a combination of multiple suggestions above.
 
Dec 2, 2003
1,637
Hunter 376 Warsash, England --
To philwsailz

Hi Phil,
Thanks for 'coming out'. Welcome and I am sure we will all benefit from your great depth of knowledge on this subject.
It occurs to me that all electrical/electronic equipment sold for marine use needs to have its "Compass Safe Distance" quoted - particularly so for loudspeakers but most (all?) makers withhold this information because it is often frightening. How about your kickers?

CSD is the distance at which a 1° compass error is introduced. This is normally used for main steering compasses and several such perturbations together can still amount to sizeable errors.

Mostly these errors can be dialled out by the compensation magnets which are part of all main steering compasses. The task of "Swinging the Compass" is usually quite straightforward and an interesting exercise which will give the owner a much better understanding of this important navigational instrument. Electronic fluxgates correct themselves by pressing the correct buttons and then sailing slowly in a circle.

In DeanGraham's case it is only the autopilot compass so, provided this is not hopelessly out, or the stray field is not so strong that the compass is hung up so is prevented from rotating, then deviation is hardly a problem.
No savvy navigator would just dial in a bearing to their autopilot and expect the boat to sail on this exact course.

On a previous boat I fell foul of the dreaded mag field one day when I hastily stowed my outboard in a locker and then plugged my tiller steering Autohelm into its usual position.

Spent hours wondering why I could set a course but the boat would gradually wander off until it got to about 90° off course. I thought the pilot had failed - until we got back to our mooring and I opened the locker to get the outboard.
The Autohelm was 3" directly above the motor's flywheel.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Hi Phil,
It occurs to me that all electrical/electronic equipment sold for marine use needs to have its "Compass Safe Distance" quoted - particularly so for loudspeakers but most (all?) makers withhold this information because it is often frightening. How about your kickers?

CSD is the distance at which a 1° compass error is introduced. This is normally used for main steering compasses and several such perturbations together can still amount to sizeable errors.
CSD quoted? Not for most manufacturers. Why? Lawyers in all likelihood. Just a guess... :D

As a product manager, here is my take: CSD is a complex issue, as flux density from the "offending object" varies depending on the angle at which you meaure it. Pretend you have a sphere about a speaker or other potentially offending object and measure points about the sphere; you will find that the measurements are not uniform in strength. Compounding the issue is that entertainment, (as opposed to communication) speakers are usually used in pairs, and their flux can be additive, or cancelling, depending on mounting distance, angle, and location.

As your comment suggests, multiple offending objects compound the issue, such that in certain installations while every item is outside of a CSD distance, the compass error can be sizeable. I am not taking a CYA position per se, but will tell you there are too many variables, such that making any statement about any product with regards to CSD has the potential to set the consumer up for disaster; it provides a false security... The onus of responsibility lies with the installer, either at the plant, the yard, or with the consumer to verify that the addition of any materials, (be they simply ferrous materials, magnetic materials, or any other item having the potential to affect the compass) be accounted for in checking for compass deviation to make sure the final mounting location of all parts including the compass is suitable, and the compass corrected if necessary.

Consider this potentially litigious situation: There might be an instance on an existing boat where the addition of a CSD-spec'd item might (considering the adjacency of other prior installed "offending objects") induce a greater than 1-degree error as a result of the summed effect of all "offending objects", resulting in a navigation failure and damage to property or life. The fault for the navigation error should be able to be proved to be the summing effect of all "offending objects". However, the CSD statement made by the manufacturer of the last "offending object" added, might result in a suit agains the manufacturer of the last added object; the manufacturer could be blamed for the error based on his CSD statement. The fact is, the installation fo the object is to be pointed to as a causal effect, but due to a "safe distance" statement, the manufacturer of the last item added might end up paying damages, despite truly being faultless.

As an artificial hip recipient, I can tell you I am concerned enough about my legs causing deviation that I want to check it... :D I share that somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as I sincerely hope there is no ferrous material in my prosthetics. Still, one should realize that any steel or ferrous material brought on board will affect the compass to some degree, magnetized or not.


To succinctly address your query, I will suggest to you that the shielded Kicker loudspeakers will affect a compass to a lesser degree than most other loudspeakers based on the level of shielding we designed in. That being said, our speakers are designed to minimize compass deviation. We do not share that they will eliminate it because that is not truthful, nor is it prudent. I would be lying if I told you otherwise... :)

As an ABYC/NMMA member who is an engineer first and a salesman second, (who also happens to be an avid boater, both sail, power, and vintage wood), I will tell you that the prudent thing to do is to mock up your installation of all items and then test prior to final placement. In Dean's post, and for his benefit, I would share that the shielded Kicker speakers probably will affect his compass the least when compared with the others, but if the mounting distance is too close and the angle is just right, the installation might compromise autopilot function regardless of speaker installed, regardless of brand, shielded or otherwise....

Sorry for the long post, but hopefully that is now completely clear as mud.... :D

Phil
 
Jan 6, 2012
27
Hunter 29.5 Auckland, New Zealand
Thanks Phil, that was I was hoping to find out - which will offer me the best chance.
Do they come with a yacht friendly white grill option?

I have metal in my knee as well - it has crossed my mind that this could play a part.
 
Dec 2, 2003
1,637
Hunter 376 Warsash, England --
Phil,
Thanks for all that!
As a BSc Hons Physics I understand the rudiments of magnetism and one company (who shall remain nameless) told me "it all depends upon your compass".

Re your legal liability concerns, it is an acknowledged fact that steering compasses must be swung and corrected after the fitment of new equipment. So, in court and without having the compass re-swung, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

On the topic of legs to stand on, I am surprised you didn't insist on having a hip joint made from austenitic stainless steel so your kickers would not stick to you when carried!
I asked for this for my knees and they were very rude to me!
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Thanks Phil, that was I was hoping to find out - which will offer me the best chance.
Do they come with a yacht friendly white grill option?

I have metal in my knee as well - it has crossed my mind that this could play a part.
The speaker we currently offer in white is not shielded. The shielded speakers are currently a dark charcoal color. I know... :) Folks always assume that a marine speaker should be white, but the mass market for new boats dictates that marine speakers NOT be white.

That being said, there has been some discussion about offering the shielded product in white. If we end up stocking them I will post back and let you know.


The tough part about white speakers is that whatever white you choose, it is guaranteed not to match the white gel for just about every boat. You can change to a different white, but the same situation exists no matter what white you choose. There are way too many different white gelcoat colors.
 
Oct 26, 2005
2,057
- - Satellite Beach, FL.
Not to put more on your busy plate Phil, but I think "Marine Electronics" would be a great addition to the Shared Forums.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
merlinuxo said:
Not to put more on your busy plate Phil, but I think "Marine Electronics" would be a great addition to the Shared Forums.
I might agree but would recommend splitting out or labeling audio and video as a unique section, with NAV and instrumentation as its own separate section. I am not sure you want me contributing much if any regarding electronic navigation... :D

Wish I was on the water today. Instead I am driving this. 56-channel Allen&Heath Front of House audio console...
 

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Oct 26, 2005
2,057
- - Satellite Beach, FL.
Wow!
Can you control the space station from there?
Makes sense to split the AV from Nav electronics, 2 pretty different animals.
 
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