I have a 1968 Venture (call it a MacGregor). The Keel has been damaged. The keel winch is jury rigged using an an old trailer winch. I would like to make it right. I am unable to locate any specifications or drawings as to how the keel winch system was originally designed. Does anyone have any information or pictures concerning the keel system of this old boat? Any information at all would be much appreciated. Thank you.
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Venture 21 keel winch
If you didn't know otherwise, the original winch looks just like a trailor winch. Check out the manuals, and other peoples photos at http://www.macgregor-boats.com/. I've heard that the original winch was made by Dutton- Lainson, but only had a friction brake(mine will bust you one if you should let go accidentally). Most folks are using this one- http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&langId=-1&catalogId= 4006970&PHOTOS=on&TEST=Y&productId=207870 rated at 1200 lbs., lots more then you need for about $50. You could also save $10 with the similar version rated for 800 lbs. Damage to the keel(or the keel pivot bolt/ mounting holes) is a bigger issue. There is good info on the web sites for that as well. Several people have even made new steel keels.
If you didn't know otherwise, the original winch looks just like a trailor winch. Check out the manuals, and other peoples photos at http://www.macgregor-boats.com/. I've heard that the original winch was made by Dutton- Lainson, but only had a friction brake(mine will bust you one if you should let go accidentally). Most folks are using this one- http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&langId=-1&catalogId= 4006970&PHOTOS=on&TEST=Y&productId=207870 rated at 1200 lbs., lots more then you need for about $50. You could also save $10 with the similar version rated for 800 lbs. Damage to the keel(or the keel pivot bolt/ mounting holes) is a bigger issue. There is good info on the web sites for that as well. Several people have even made new steel keels.
keel winch
I've got a 1974 Venture.I had to refiberglass the keel. When I did this, I drilled the pivot bolt hole out and put a brass bushing in. This made the hole the right size again.I also replaced the winch cable, since it was frayed and was dangerous to my hands.I've got a trailer winch for my keel.It was in the boat when I got it,so I don't know if it's better or worse, since I've got nothing to compare it with. Happy sailing. JIM
I've got a 1974 Venture.I had to refiberglass the keel. When I did this, I drilled the pivot bolt hole out and put a brass bushing in. This made the hole the right size again.I also replaced the winch cable, since it was frayed and was dangerous to my hands.I've got a trailer winch for my keel.It was in the boat when I got it,so I don't know if it's better or worse, since I've got nothing to compare it with. Happy sailing. JIM
Brass Bushing
I raised my Mac-22 off the trailer yesterday to do a keel job. I noticed I have a lot of slop in the keel where it is attached to the pivot bolt. I haven't dropped the keel yet (next Weekend) but I expect the pivot hole has wallowed out over the years. I was thinking of ways to repair it and thought of the Brass Bushing idea. When I seen you have done it I was wondering how it worked out for you.
I raised my Mac-22 off the trailer yesterday to do a keel job. I noticed I have a lot of slop in the keel where it is attached to the pivot bolt. I haven't dropped the keel yet (next Weekend) but I expect the pivot hole has wallowed out over the years. I was thinking of ways to repair it and thought of the Brass Bushing idea. When I seen you have done it I was wondering how it worked out for you.
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brass bushing
It's fine, but it seemed fine before. I never heard the keel slapping around the tunnel before,but common sense says the hole should be close to the same size of the pivit bolt,so I drilled and put in the brass bushing.This is my first sailboat,so I've got nothng to compare with,other than common sense.I ran all my lines to the back of the cabin top with a downhaul for the jib.I put one reef in my main sail so that if it gets winder then I like I can reef it.I got knocked down on a beam reach, the sails got rid of the air and the boat came right back up,then I had to get the sails down.What a ride. I put slugs in my main, so it stacks on the boom. I'm hoping these changes will help in giving me more control. Sorry for rambling on,but it's nice to talk to others with sailboats. JIM
It's fine, but it seemed fine before. I never heard the keel slapping around the tunnel before,but common sense says the hole should be close to the same size of the pivit bolt,so I drilled and put in the brass bushing.This is my first sailboat,so I've got nothng to compare with,other than common sense.I ran all my lines to the back of the cabin top with a downhaul for the jib.I put one reef in my main sail so that if it gets winder then I like I can reef it.I got knocked down on a beam reach, the sails got rid of the air and the boat came right back up,then I had to get the sails down.What a ride. I put slugs in my main, so it stacks on the boom. I'm hoping these changes will help in giving me more control. Sorry for rambling on,but it's nice to talk to others with sailboats. JIM
M-21 keel thoughts
Dan, I'd be happy to send you some photos of an '81 which I just tore apart, (well tore is the wrong word) The pivot bolt is a 5/8" stainless, with two rubber seals, 2 cup washers and a lock nut. The only thing keeping the keel in place are the sides of the trunk, which are a close fit. I don't believe a slightly oversize keel bolt hole will do much damage, it just sort of hangs there, but the holes in the hull are a bigger concern. If they get oversize, the boat will leak. I plan to "shim" my dinged hull hole with some 'glass when the keel and bolt is in place. I think bushings should be attmpted with great care, it would be easy to get the hole out of position, to fail to secure the bushing, or to weaken the keel. There is a lock down pin, but in my boat, it was installed and left in with the keel up, and has worn a notch on the shoulder of the keel. The cable should be a 3/16", 7X19 strand, stainless, with an eyebolt type swaged end.(a eye formed with a thimble and a clamp can slip off the bolt) The lift bolt is a 3/8" stainless. The corrct brake type winch is a Grainger #6W045, or a Dutton Lainson DLB800. A ratchet type will work, but is dangerous. Thre is a 5/16 guide bolt installed in the cable "trunk", as it goes thru the hull, to keep the cable from sawing the hull. This could have a roller instlled on it to reduce wear.
Dan, I'd be happy to send you some photos of an '81 which I just tore apart, (well tore is the wrong word) The pivot bolt is a 5/8" stainless, with two rubber seals, 2 cup washers and a lock nut. The only thing keeping the keel in place are the sides of the trunk, which are a close fit. I don't believe a slightly oversize keel bolt hole will do much damage, it just sort of hangs there, but the holes in the hull are a bigger concern. If they get oversize, the boat will leak. I plan to "shim" my dinged hull hole with some 'glass when the keel and bolt is in place. I think bushings should be attmpted with great care, it would be easy to get the hole out of position, to fail to secure the bushing, or to weaken the keel. There is a lock down pin, but in my boat, it was installed and left in with the keel up, and has worn a notch on the shoulder of the keel. The cable should be a 3/16", 7X19 strand, stainless, with an eyebolt type swaged end.(a eye formed with a thimble and a clamp can slip off the bolt) The lift bolt is a 3/8" stainless. The corrct brake type winch is a Grainger #6W045, or a Dutton Lainson DLB800. A ratchet type will work, but is dangerous. Thre is a 5/16 guide bolt installed in the cable "trunk", as it goes thru the hull, to keep the cable from sawing the hull. This could have a roller instlled on it to reduce wear.
Keel work
I'm in the same boat as Jim Hughes of Bend OR would like to hear from him on fiberglassing the keel. in the process of rust removal and painting now (see picture) used the phosx stuff that converts rust to iron phosphate. I intend to replace the cockpit drain/cable hole with heavier SS and use a long shackle on the keel end of the cable instead of the bolt. Any thoughts or experience?
I'm in the same boat as Jim Hughes of Bend OR would like to hear from him on fiberglassing the keel. in the process of rust removal and painting now (see picture) used the phosx stuff that converts rust to iron phosphate. I intend to replace the cockpit drain/cable hole with heavier SS and use a long shackle on the keel end of the cable instead of the bolt. Any thoughts or experience?
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Brass bushing
Expect some galvanic corrosion from combining brass and castiron, especially in salt water. Also expect faster wear as brass is softer than iron, but replaceable at least.
Expect some galvanic corrosion from combining brass and castiron, especially in salt water. Also expect faster wear as brass is softer than iron, but replaceable at least.
Too Bushing or Not too Bushing
I was wondering about the corrosion aspect of the two metals. But then again, the keel is iron and the bolt is stainless. Guess I'll see just how large the hole has gotten when I drop the keel this weekend. Any other ideas on how to solve this problem are welcome. Perhaps a Stainless sleeve instead of a bushing??????
I was wondering about the corrosion aspect of the two metals. But then again, the keel is iron and the bolt is stainless. Guess I'll see just how large the hole has gotten when I drop the keel this weekend. Any other ideas on how to solve this problem are welcome. Perhaps a Stainless sleeve instead of a bushing??????
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keel
Paul of Oregon City.This is Jim of Bend.I pulled my keel,and took a hammer,to tap on the fiberglass to see how much of it was seperated from the metal.You can hear the difference between solid and seperated.I then cut out the bad,whitch on one side was the whole side.I was kind of afaid to do the hole thing,since I didn't know if the front roundness are the back tapper of the keel would change the way the boat sailed.If I was to do it again,I would do the whole thing.Here's a web site that shows pictures and tells how to do it right.Type in Macgregor Links.When it comes up take #2.When it comes up go down to Brian Gilberts V222 Restoration.He tells you how he did his and shows you pictures as he's doing it.It doesn't seem as scary with pictures.Good luck.If I can help you with something else,give me a call. 541-322-9641 JIM
Paul of Oregon City.This is Jim of Bend.I pulled my keel,and took a hammer,to tap on the fiberglass to see how much of it was seperated from the metal.You can hear the difference between solid and seperated.I then cut out the bad,whitch on one side was the whole side.I was kind of afaid to do the hole thing,since I didn't know if the front roundness are the back tapper of the keel would change the way the boat sailed.If I was to do it again,I would do the whole thing.Here's a web site that shows pictures and tells how to do it right.Type in Macgregor Links.When it comes up take #2.When it comes up go down to Brian Gilberts V222 Restoration.He tells you how he did his and shows you pictures as he's doing it.It doesn't seem as scary with pictures.Good luck.If I can help you with something else,give me a call. 541-322-9641 JIM
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