If the desire is to break down the solids in the holding tank, wouldn't it be more effective to have a macerator pump between the bowl and the tank? Might this also help prevent clogs?
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No
If you grind your poop and then put it into your holding tank it will just clump together and you will have to grind it again before you dump it while at sea. Since you are pumping into the holding tank the chance of clog is pretty low. I don't ever recall hearing of such a clog. The idea of breaking down your solids in your HOLDING tank is misplaced. Such things don't happen. It is not a septic tank and even if it where, even a septic tank does not break down solids fast enough to keep the tank from filling up and the cleared fluid running out into the leach field where it is SLOWLY digested. A septic tank is really just a settling tank. It has to be pumped out every few years to remove the solids. The large space allows the solids to settle and a cleared fluid to pass into the leach field.
If you grind your poop and then put it into your holding tank it will just clump together and you will have to grind it again before you dump it while at sea. Since you are pumping into the holding tank the chance of clog is pretty low. I don't ever recall hearing of such a clog. The idea of breaking down your solids in your HOLDING tank is misplaced. Such things don't happen. It is not a septic tank and even if it where, even a septic tank does not break down solids fast enough to keep the tank from filling up and the cleared fluid running out into the leach field where it is SLOWLY digested. A septic tank is really just a settling tank. It has to be pumped out every few years to remove the solids. The large space allows the solids to settle and a cleared fluid to pass into the leach field.
Lynch..Electric heads do just that. They have a
macerataor built into the base. We had one on our last boat, and never experienced the clumping that Bill referred to. If you are using the head correctly there is far more liquid in the tank than solids, so it stays fairly well suspended until you pump out at a station or out at sea.
macerataor built into the base. We had one on our last boat, and never experienced the clumping that Bill referred to. If you are using the head correctly there is far more liquid in the tank than solids, so it stays fairly well suspended until you pump out at a station or out at sea.
Macerator between toilet and tank not needed, plus...
It'll cause more problems than it solves. 'Cuz it has to be running for even liquids to get through it, and unless it's pulling anything through it at the same rate the toilet is being flushed, you'll either have a backup or dry friction heat will keep frying the macerator impeller--which is the most likely scenario, 'cuz I'd like to meet the person who can pump a toilet at the same 12 GPM a macerator pulls waste.
So you'd drive yourself nuts trying to pump the toilet, run the macerator just long enough, pump the toilet, run the macerator... Electric macerating toilets have a built in macerator blade that "purees" bowl contents at the same time it's pumped through the system, so there's no coordination of two devices needed. Bill, you're among many who make the mistake of equating a holding tank with a septic tank. A septic tank is a still anaerobic process (which you obviously know)...a holding tank has more in common with a pond because a) it's anything BUT still, and b) it requires aerobic management. Solids and TP actually break down, at least partially, in a holding tank, unless chemical tank products that kill bacteria are used, because, unlike a septic tank, toilet waste is the ONLY thing in boat holding tank. Solid waste is 95% water to start with and dissolves very quickly in water. A non-chemical organic or live bacteria tank product will assist the naturally occurring bacteria in the waste itself to go a long way toward complete emulsification. If that happens aerobically, it does so without generating any odor. In fact, aeration is one of the means of accomplishing that. However, you're correct that they don't break down completely, which doesn't result in any clumping, but does results in sludge that should be flushed out 2-3x/year--and especially in preparation for winter layup--to prevent it from hardening to a "concrete" that nothing can dissolve that won't also damage the system.
It'll cause more problems than it solves. 'Cuz it has to be running for even liquids to get through it, and unless it's pulling anything through it at the same rate the toilet is being flushed, you'll either have a backup or dry friction heat will keep frying the macerator impeller--which is the most likely scenario, 'cuz I'd like to meet the person who can pump a toilet at the same 12 GPM a macerator pulls waste.
So you'd drive yourself nuts trying to pump the toilet, run the macerator just long enough, pump the toilet, run the macerator... Electric macerating toilets have a built in macerator blade that "purees" bowl contents at the same time it's pumped through the system, so there's no coordination of two devices needed. Bill, you're among many who make the mistake of equating a holding tank with a septic tank. A septic tank is a still anaerobic process (which you obviously know)...a holding tank has more in common with a pond because a) it's anything BUT still, and b) it requires aerobic management. Solids and TP actually break down, at least partially, in a holding tank, unless chemical tank products that kill bacteria are used, because, unlike a septic tank, toilet waste is the ONLY thing in boat holding tank. Solid waste is 95% water to start with and dissolves very quickly in water. A non-chemical organic or live bacteria tank product will assist the naturally occurring bacteria in the waste itself to go a long way toward complete emulsification. If that happens aerobically, it does so without generating any odor. In fact, aeration is one of the means of accomplishing that. However, you're correct that they don't break down completely, which doesn't result in any clumping, but does results in sludge that should be flushed out 2-3x/year--and especially in preparation for winter layup--to prevent it from hardening to a "concrete" that nothing can dissolve that won't also damage the system.Thank you for your quick response
I was thinking that macerating the discharge would help the little critters break the solids down and... when I purchased this boat the aft head discharge hose was blocked, no way to clear it short of taking the whole system out, which I did. The clog was in a ball valve, so I thought macerating the discharge would also help prevent clogs. Also thought it may take less water to clear the hose. I have a Groko KH manual head and I'll check into electrifying it, like Dick McKee referred to. I know about the aerobic process, in fact I plan on installing an air supply vent to the tank with a small solar powered, low flow vane-axial fan/blower to install between the hull fitting and the tank. There is a UK company called TEC that makes tanks with 1-1/2" vent lines as standard; they also and they carry the hull vent fitting. About the vent, everyone wants to sell a charcoal filter for the vent, but you say that it slows the airflow and thus disrupts the aerobic process; ergo, stinky. If I used a forced air supply to the tank, I think that would solve the aerobic problem even with a filter(?): Question: How long does it take for the poop to quit stinking i.e. the aerobic process to start? If it takes a month, then the tank will be pumped and flushed before the smell goes away. My neighbors may not be too happy. Thanks for the help.
I was thinking that macerating the discharge would help the little critters break the solids down and... when I purchased this boat the aft head discharge hose was blocked, no way to clear it short of taking the whole system out, which I did. The clog was in a ball valve, so I thought macerating the discharge would also help prevent clogs. Also thought it may take less water to clear the hose. I have a Groko KH manual head and I'll check into electrifying it, like Dick McKee referred to. I know about the aerobic process, in fact I plan on installing an air supply vent to the tank with a small solar powered, low flow vane-axial fan/blower to install between the hull fitting and the tank. There is a UK company called TEC that makes tanks with 1-1/2" vent lines as standard; they also and they carry the hull vent fitting. About the vent, everyone wants to sell a charcoal filter for the vent, but you say that it slows the airflow and thus disrupts the aerobic process; ergo, stinky. If I used a forced air supply to the tank, I think that would solve the aerobic problem even with a filter(?): Question: How long does it take for the poop to quit stinking i.e. the aerobic process to start? If it takes a month, then the tank will be pumped and flushed before the smell goes away. My neighbors may not be too happy. Thanks for the help.
Peggy and Lynch
Peggy, I understand the difference, I just didn't explain it very well. All I'm saying is that it would take a VERY large holding tank to do what Lynch is suggesting. Lynch, once you get the aerobic (oxygen loving) critters going you will not have any smell as they make methane. If you get the anaerobic bugs growing in your tank then you get sulpher dioxide (rotten eggs etc) gas produced. You don't need great amounts of oxygen to kill the anaerobic bugs. The normal sloshing and pump-out will do fine.
Peggy, I understand the difference, I just didn't explain it very well. All I'm saying is that it would take a VERY large holding tank to do what Lynch is suggesting. Lynch, once you get the aerobic (oxygen loving) critters going you will not have any smell as they make methane. If you get the anaerobic bugs growing in your tank then you get sulpher dioxide (rotten eggs etc) gas produced. You don't need great amounts of oxygen to kill the anaerobic bugs. The normal sloshing and pump-out will do fine.
Macerating waste doesn't prevent clogs...
Clogs only happen when...a) something is flushed that shouldn't have been, and which will most likely jam up a macerator before it ever gets to the plumbing...b)when the toilet isn't flushed long enough to move solids and TP all the way through the system, so it builds up in valves and at bends....c) when sea water mineral buildup reduces discharge hose diameter and starts to trap waste, increasing the buildup. Any of the above is just as likely to happen whether the waste is macerated or not. Solids are broken up by the pump and the joker valve, so they dissolve very quickly whether macerated or not. The "aerobic process" doesn't apply to toilets or the plumbing, only in tanks. If you put a fan on the vent line, you'll need two vents...just pulling air in won't do much 'cuz it has nowhere to go. And the fan should exhaust (pull air through the tank), not pull air in to work efficiently. However, on most boats a fan is unnecessary if the vent line is straight, relatively short (<5') and at least 1" diameter. It's only when the vent line is long and travels a path with bends that any assistance from a fan is needed. Putting a filter inline defeats the whole purpose of increasing ventilation...it becomes a blockage. Increasing ventilation above the surface is NOT aeration...aeration oxygenates the waste by mixing air with it. And unlike aeration, just increasing ventilation will NOT eliminate odor without the use of an organic or bio-active tank product too. If the tank is functioning aerobically, it should be odor-free from the get-go. Aerobic breakdown doesn't convert anaerobic to aerobic...in fact, once a tank has turned anaerobic, the only cure is to pump it out, flush it out and start it over. I believe the UK company you refer to is actually Tek-Tanks http://www.tek-tanks.com/Pages/frameset.htm Their "Sanitation Guide" was adapted (with permission) from my book. Finally, I would not put a motor on your Groco model K. The only thing that putting a motor on manual toilet does is replace the pump HANDLE...you still have the same manual pump to maintain. If you want the "push button convenience" of an electric toilet, replace your manual with one designed to BE an electric toilet, not a "hybrid." Besides, there's no advantage to a toilet that can be converted to manual in the event of a power failure...'cuz if you don't have enough power to flush an electric toilet, you don't have enough to power anythng else either--no electronics, no lights, maybe no steering either, no bilge pumps...but you WILL still have a bucket. So whether you can flush a toilet or not would be the LEAST of your worries! Bill, methane IS odorless, but it's an ANAEROBIC gas...not generated in aerobic conditions. As organic matter breaks down aerobically, it produces only odorless CO2. Compost is a good example of how the aerobic process works.
Clogs only happen when...a) something is flushed that shouldn't have been, and which will most likely jam up a macerator before it ever gets to the plumbing...b)when the toilet isn't flushed long enough to move solids and TP all the way through the system, so it builds up in valves and at bends....c) when sea water mineral buildup reduces discharge hose diameter and starts to trap waste, increasing the buildup. Any of the above is just as likely to happen whether the waste is macerated or not. Solids are broken up by the pump and the joker valve, so they dissolve very quickly whether macerated or not. The "aerobic process" doesn't apply to toilets or the plumbing, only in tanks. If you put a fan on the vent line, you'll need two vents...just pulling air in won't do much 'cuz it has nowhere to go. And the fan should exhaust (pull air through the tank), not pull air in to work efficiently. However, on most boats a fan is unnecessary if the vent line is straight, relatively short (<5') and at least 1" diameter. It's only when the vent line is long and travels a path with bends that any assistance from a fan is needed. Putting a filter inline defeats the whole purpose of increasing ventilation...it becomes a blockage. Increasing ventilation above the surface is NOT aeration...aeration oxygenates the waste by mixing air with it. And unlike aeration, just increasing ventilation will NOT eliminate odor without the use of an organic or bio-active tank product too. If the tank is functioning aerobically, it should be odor-free from the get-go. Aerobic breakdown doesn't convert anaerobic to aerobic...in fact, once a tank has turned anaerobic, the only cure is to pump it out, flush it out and start it over. I believe the UK company you refer to is actually Tek-Tanks http://www.tek-tanks.com/Pages/frameset.htm Their "Sanitation Guide" was adapted (with permission) from my book. Finally, I would not put a motor on your Groco model K. The only thing that putting a motor on manual toilet does is replace the pump HANDLE...you still have the same manual pump to maintain. If you want the "push button convenience" of an electric toilet, replace your manual with one designed to BE an electric toilet, not a "hybrid." Besides, there's no advantage to a toilet that can be converted to manual in the event of a power failure...'cuz if you don't have enough power to flush an electric toilet, you don't have enough to power anythng else either--no electronics, no lights, maybe no steering either, no bilge pumps...but you WILL still have a bucket. So whether you can flush a toilet or not would be the LEAST of your worries! Bill, methane IS odorless, but it's an ANAEROBIC gas...not generated in aerobic conditions. As organic matter breaks down aerobically, it produces only odorless CO2. Compost is a good example of how the aerobic process works.
And thats why you buy a toilet plunger....
...well so I thought. When we first bought our H36 with an electric toilet we knew next to nothing about boat heads. As the boat was being commissioned my wife and I had fun buying things at Bed, Bath, and Beyond, including toilet cleaners and yes, a plunger. Needless to say, we had to return some items. Incredible how steep that learning curve is. abe
...well so I thought. When we first bought our H36 with an electric toilet we knew next to nothing about boat heads. As the boat was being commissioned my wife and I had fun buying things at Bed, Bath, and Beyond, including toilet cleaners and yes, a plunger. Needless to say, we had to return some items. Incredible how steep that learning curve is. abe
Noooooooooooo....
NEVER use a plunger in a marine toilet. Pushing down won't do much harm--although it won't do much good either...but the suction when it's pulled up will scew up the rubber seals and o-rings in the pump. But that's one of the things you returned--along with the household bowl cleaners...so you already knew that...right? The learning curve IS a bit steep, but it's also relatively short...unless you have an attention span that's even shorter.
NEVER use a plunger in a marine toilet. Pushing down won't do much harm--although it won't do much good either...but the suction when it's pulled up will scew up the rubber seals and o-rings in the pump. But that's one of the things you returned--along with the household bowl cleaners...so you already knew that...right?
The learning curve IS a bit steep, but it's also relatively short...unless you have an attention span that's even shorter.Yes, Peggie...don't you get the story?
Trying to point out how ignorant we where about boat toilets that we bought a plunger....didn't I make that clear? abe
Trying to point out how ignorant we where about boat toilets that we bought a plunger....didn't I make that clear? abe
It was clear to me that YOU knew...
Just making sure it was to everyone else too. You didn't know when you were new to boat toilets that plungers and household chemical cleaners are a no-no...few, if any, newbies do...and there are a lot of 'em here. I've even seen people who've owned boats for years suggest using a plunger...which demonstrates that there are those who have 10 years of boat owning experience, and then there are those who have one year of experience 10, or even 20, times.
Just making sure it was to everyone else too. You didn't know when you were new to boat toilets that plungers and household chemical cleaners are a no-no...few, if any, newbies do...and there are a lot of 'em here. I've even seen people who've owned boats for years suggest using a plunger...which demonstrates that there are those who have 10 years of boat owning experience, and then there are those who have one year of experience 10, or even 20, times.
Thanks to all,
I'm going to try to make the vents as straight as possible, both air in and air out, to ensure as much ventilation through the tank as possible. But, if as you say, "...aeration oxygenates the waste by mixing air with it", I need a way to mix the air with the waste. Being tied up in a slip, there isn't much motion, certainly not enough to agitate the contents of a tank. I've noticed that the waste treatment plants use "fountains" to aerate their ponds. Groco makes a devise called "SWEETTANK", a bubbler system that percolates air through the waste using a stand pipe to the bottom of the tank. But, I'm still worried about vented odors, not the long term but the time that the waste enters the tank until the aerobic process is creating CO2...there's got to be some time delay(?) Otherwise a public bathroom wouldn't smell so bad or does my logic stink as bad as the topic? I certainly want to be as unoffensive as possible
I'm going to try to make the vents as straight as possible, both air in and air out, to ensure as much ventilation through the tank as possible. But, if as you say, "...aeration oxygenates the waste by mixing air with it", I need a way to mix the air with the waste. Being tied up in a slip, there isn't much motion, certainly not enough to agitate the contents of a tank. I've noticed that the waste treatment plants use "fountains" to aerate their ponds. Groco makes a devise called "SWEETTANK", a bubbler system that percolates air through the waste using a stand pipe to the bottom of the tank. But, I'm still worried about vented odors, not the long term but the time that the waste enters the tank until the aerobic process is creating CO2...there's got to be some time delay(?) Otherwise a public bathroom wouldn't smell so bad or does my logic stink as bad as the topic
? I certainly want to be as unoffensive as possible
Lynch, what size tank are we talking about?
Unless it's a very large tank, you're trying to WAAAAY over-engineer a very simple system. If you'd like to discuss your specific installation more detail than is practical in a forum, send me an email...I'm in all the owner directories.
Unless it's a very large tank, you're trying to WAAAAY over-engineer a very simple system. If you'd like to discuss your specific installation more detail than is practical in a forum, send me an email...I'm in all the owner directories.
What's an owners directory?
I'm at lynchfh@veriaon.net. I tried to send you an email, but have no idea if I did it correctly.
I'm at lynchfh@veriaon.net. I tried to send you an email, but have no idea if I did it correctly.
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