Loose footed or Bolt Rope main for a 30 ft cruiser

[Royal Flush]

Lost my nearly worn out main over the weekend in heavy weather so I'm beginning to speck out one this week. Ive seen some people say the loose foot provides extra drive and I'm wondering what the preferred solution might be. Oh, I nearly forgot... and what features to ask for sail cloth weight, 2 reef points min. Triple stitching, Draft stripes etc.

-Mac

 

[Tim R.]

I prefer the loose footed. It gives me more trimming options. As for the rest of your questions you should talk to your local sailmaker and let him know what the sail will be used for.

 

[RichH]

Loose footed has 'easier adjustability' ... easier to power up or flatten the shape of the lower panel sections.

6 oz. woven dacron would probably be best for an 'all around' sail material for the 'tidewater'.
Triple stitching isnt necessary for a coastal boat.

Other considerations:
1. UV resistant thread - Tenara or equivalent - very expensive but lasts almost forever.
2. Over-the-top leech line - so you can adjust the leech when the boom is fully outboard and away from the boats centerline. Also arranged so that the leech can be adjusted from each reef position.
3. Additional length of luff boltrope - 'stored' at/on headboard. So, that any future adjustment of the boltrope length does not require a total and costly replacement of the rope and its sleeve. Important in keeping the sail luff dimension constant ... so that the sail doesnt 'bag-out' over its lifetime. With extra boltrope length stored at the headboard any future adjustment is fast/easy/cheap.
3a. get the 'as built' luff dimensions and 'store/record' them ... so its 'easier' to reset/ease that luff boltope when it begins to shrink from age/usage.
4. 2 full (and tapered) battens at the top, 2 LONG (and tapered) battens further down.

Describe EXACTLY to the sailmaker: your 'steering ability' (cruiser or 'attentive'), whether you intend to race (what % of the time), the normal wind and wave conditions where you sail (%chop, %flat water, %swells ... what wind conditions DO you sail or expect to sail in). All these considerations will affect the 'shape' and 'cut' of the sail.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I was looking for a new furler and ran across the roller furling main sails. They seem to be identical to the roller furling head sails by design of the furler. They have a cable on the back of the mast that the furler is on. I thought these would have poor preformace becasue of the bottom of the sail not being in a track. But from the posts here I guess not. Why aren't those more popular on boats. It seems like it makes the main sail amost as convienent as the furler headsail. Could someone please enlighten me on the pros and cons of this system?

 

[Tim R.]

I was looking for a new furler and ran across the roller furling main sails. They seem to be identical to the roller furling head sails by design of the furler. They have a cable on the back of the mast that the furler is on. I thought these would have poor preformace becasue of the bottom of the sail not being in a track. But from the posts here I guess not. Why aren't those more popular on boats. It seems like it makes the main sail amost as convienent as the furler headsail. Could someone please enlighten me on the pros and cons of this system?

A few reasons:

Cost - they are very expensive
Maintenance - if it fails, you could be in some trouble(if it jams, cannot furl it in a blow)
Performance - Zero roach and few ways to tune the sail. A better option would be a Boom furled main sail
Safety - increased weight aloft
Comfort - no battens to reduce sail flogging

A better option would be a Boom furled main sail.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Loose foot works as described but it's even better if you have a working outhaul run back to the cockpit.

 

[Tim R.]

Check.

 

[RichH]

I was looking for a new furler and ran across the roller furling main sails. They seem to be identical to the roller furling head sails by design of the furler. They have a cable on the back of the mast that the furler is on. I thought these would have poor preformace becasue of the bottom of the sail not being in a track. But from the posts here I guess not. Why aren't those more popular on boats. It seems like it makes the main sail amost as convienent as the furler headsail. Could someone please enlighten me on the pros and cons of this system?

One of the chief reasons is that one can only furl a sail by 30% reduction (of LP) and still have a modicum of good shape, all the complex 'broadseaming' (special cutting of curves along the panel seams/edges to affect the 3 dimensional shape of the sail ... and usually located from the luff to about 30% back) are retracted into/onto the furler and then mostly only the relatively flat sections are left exposed. Since any furler cannot 'differentially roll' to retract the 'extra' portions of the 3D shape, the mid-section thats left exposed become 'overtly baggy' hence overpowers the sail in that section due to it now grotesque shape - leaving you with a boat that can hardy point into the wind, is greatly "powered-up" in its midsection and with virtually NO way to tension the sail to get the shape back under control. If sails were flat sheets of cloth then a roller-furler/reef could work under all conditions; but, since sails are basically 'quasi-spherical' you cant roll them beyond about 30% reduction and get anything that approximates a 3D sail. Functionally, when you need to reduce more than ~30% it becomes a safety issue as well as a performance issue.

Next time out roll up your headsail to about 50% reduction, then 'try' to go upwind and notice the horrendous shape that the sail has taken at 50% 'rolled reef'. Better to hang pillow cases aloft than to roller-reef a sail greater than 30%.

All this notwithstanding the history of functional failures of furlers. At least with a headsail rollerfurler when it breaks you can at the very worst do a couple dozen 360's to roll the sail around its foil ... cant do that with a mainsail furler because of the rigging. If the typical mainsail furler jams during 'survival' conditions you better have a way to go up that mast ... with a knife clenched in your teeth.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Are there inflatable vetical battons in roller mains or roller jibs to take the bagginess out?

 

[BobM]

I vote for a built in cunningham too. It works well in combination with the loose foot to adjust the sail shape.

 

[RichH]

Are there inflatable vetical battons in roller mains or roller jibs to take the bagginess out?

Bagginess cant be corrected by battens. Battens are used to provide support for the roach ('rounded' shape of the leech which extends aft & beyond an imaginary line from the clew to the head) --- they stop the 'roach' from a-floppin'.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I understand what a conventional batton is for. I have them in the main sail on my boat.
This idea applies to a roller furler head sail or a roller furler main. what I am asking is, has any one installed a vertical inflatable bag that extends from the top of the bagginess to the bottom of the bagginess in the sail at a part in the sail so when you reef it to say 50% you inflate the vertical bag that is sewn into a vetical pocket on the sail and then roll the furler up until the bag just starts to get rolled up. That should take the bagginess out of a sail that has been "reefed too far".
I guess this could be applied to roller furler main sail for reefing. And you could have inflatable battons that you could deflate so you could furl the main all the way up. Then you could have a sizable roach and control the flappin'.

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Hermit, there are no inflatable battens. To take the draft out of a main the roller would have to be variable. With the old roller reefing mains you started with a relieved gooseneck to roll the thicker bolt rope, sail slides, and luff tape. Then there was a shaped boom to take out more material at the sails belly location, and after that you had to adjust the location of the shape with foam rubber filler . This system was not very good but at least the boom was accessible. The new in boom furling and mast furling are just that; furling, not reefing. I enclose a pict to show a roller reefed main reefed on the boom. It was fairly quick but never satisfactory. Once it was close to correct and you took another roll you took too much out of the middle and the sail would completely loose shape.

Royal Flush, I prefer a bolt rope because I like some support on the foot of the main and I think that its easier to reef and furl. Sail makers have tried to split the difference all the way from the broadway booms on the old "J" boats, where they had wide flat booms with track at the foot slides, that ran across the boom so the foot would take the shape of a loose footed main. Then there were shelf footed mains where the shelf was in the shape of the desired light air draft in the main, and they were intended to prevent air from escaping under the foot of an otherwise loose footed main. Then these were superseded by the zipper foot main which was a shelf footed main, where the shelf could be zipped in or out depending on the wind strength.

Both loose footed and bolt rope footed mains can be trimmed properly by someone who knows how and there are plenty of both out there.

This pict of my T-bird going to weather was not in any race, but just a leisurely sail. Do you see anything bad about that main (the loose halyard is a spinnaker halyard after a douse)? note the low window for observing traffic, and the upper window to check the jib sheeting, and one reef ready to go..

Have fun

Joe S

 

[jibes138]

Oh and by the way

The roller furling equipment pushes the main farther back ooon the boat by the distance from the roller furler luff wire to the mast. It also further messes up the flow of wind that is already messed up by having the mast. I don't think people realize just how bad a mast add drag as the flow of wind over a cylinder is a horrible mess. Separation of the air stream from the leeward side of the sail is a terrible thing to happen and this will make it worse. Look at extremely expensive raceboats. They will employ a rotating mast that is built with an airfoil shape to allow the mast to effectively become a part of the sail adding lift and smoothing the airflow across the sail. This is another reason why the slot effect on a sloop is important because it redirects the airstream across the mainsail where it is initially disrupted by the big old mast initially.
I saw a report somewhere of the drag that is created just by the rigging on a boat and raceboats even go so far as to have airfoil shaped rigging. Next time the Whitbread boats or Volvo, whoever they are now, come to town take a look closely at the rigging and mast to see what I mean.

 

[Royal Flush]

thanks for the bolt rope comments

Royal Flush, I prefer a bolt rope because I like some support on the foot of the main and I think that its easier to reef and furl. Sail makers have tried to split the difference all the way from the broadway booms on the old "J" boats, where they had wide flat booms with track at the foot slides, that ran across the boom so the foot would take the shape of a loose footed main. Then there were shelf footed mains where the shelf was in the shape of the desired light air draft in the main, and they were intended to prevent air from escaping under the foot of an otherwise loose footed main. Then these were superseded by the zipper foot main which was a shelf footed main, where the shelf could be zipped in or out depending on the wind strength.

Both loose footed and bolt rope footed mains can be trimmed properly by someone who knows how and there are plenty of both out there.

This pict of my T-bird going to weather was not in any race, but just a leisurely sail. Do you see anything bad about that main (the loose halyard is a spinnaker halyard after a douse)? note the low window for observing traffic, and the upper window to check the jib sheeting, and one reef ready to go..

Have fun

Joe S

I don't see the ready to go reef that you are mentioning.... I like the traffic windows though. That's something I'll have to consider for my 150 genoa. I got to wash my genoa and decks on my last outing..And would liked to have been able to see through the sail.

-Mac