I am considering the purchase of a Portland Pugie for use as a liferaft / dinghy tender. Does anyone out there have any experience with this tender? My deck space is limited. What do you use as a tender / liferaft? All comments are welcome. Robert
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A dinghy is NOT a life raft
If you leave your boat to survive a storm which is sinking your main boat, the dinghy will not do any better. It will probably not be available anyway in those conditions. You probably will not be able to stay in it even if you can get into it and it stays upright which it probably won't. I cannot think of many situations where I would leave my boat to try to survive that set of conditions. You might do well to spend a little time studying life rafts to see the difference.
If you leave your boat to survive a storm which is sinking your main boat, the dinghy will not do any better. It will probably not be available anyway in those conditions. You probably will not be able to stay in it even if you can get into it and it stays upright which it probably won't. I cannot think of many situations where I would leave my boat to try to survive that set of conditions. You might do well to spend a little time studying life rafts to see the difference.
There may not be a storm
Probably a fire is a more likely reason to leave a boat!!! Especially if you are a coastal sailer. In an ideal world with an unlimited budget and a boat large enough to hold everything you might need a liferaft is a neat addition!!! But I've noticed very few boats at my marina that have liferafts. Sooooo my boat catches fire and I'm 25 miles offshore. Should I 1. Jump into my dinghy with the 9 hp motor and motor to shore or 2. Get into my liferaft and ride the current to wherever while waiting for help??? In survival storm conditions a liferaft might not be that great of an option. I've read about empty liferafts being found at sea. Just another thought!!! Tom
Probably a fire is a more likely reason to leave a boat!!! Especially if you are a coastal sailer. In an ideal world with an unlimited budget and a boat large enough to hold everything you might need a liferaft is a neat addition!!! But I've noticed very few boats at my marina that have liferafts. Sooooo my boat catches fire and I'm 25 miles offshore. Should I 1. Jump into my dinghy with the 9 hp motor and motor to shore or 2. Get into my liferaft and ride the current to wherever while waiting for help??? In survival storm conditions a liferaft might not be that great of an option. I've read about empty liferafts being found at sea. Just another thought!!! Tom
Carrying a life raft is a personal decision.
Or rather, not carrying one is even more personal. Many factors come into play when planning an escape from disaster. Many good articles have been written on the subject so, thankfully, guys like me don't need to expound about it here. When I did a risk assessment many years ago, like Tom said, fire was the primary risk to our welfare. As such, I chose to invest in a sound tender that would also haul ass.
But like every part of sailing, it's a personal choice. Many sailors don't even carry an epirb because that might alert someone to their distress and put others in danger. Not good for those of us who chose to place ourselves in that situation.
Or rather, not carrying one is even more personal. Many factors come into play when planning an escape from disaster. Many good articles have been written on the subject so, thankfully, guys like me don't need to expound about it here. When I did a risk assessment many years ago, like Tom said, fire was the primary risk to our welfare. As such, I chose to invest in a sound tender that would also haul ass.
But like every part of sailing, it's a personal choice. Many sailors don't even carry an epirb because that might alert someone to their distress and put others in danger. Not good for those of us who chose to place ourselves in that situation.Close your eyes and picture a life raft
For a small pleasure boat, it will not have an outboard motor. Obviously, if you have a choice when your boat is on fire, take the dinghy with the outboard. That is not the usual scenario for deploying a life raft. I am just trying to answer a slightly unclear question which was asked - not make up another question altogether. When you are 25 miles offshore on your burning boat: 1. Is your dinghy in tow or on board? 2. Can you quickly deploy and board it? Can you board it from the water? 3. Can you quickly mount the outboard on it at sea? 4. Where do you keep the gas tank for it? Can you get that safely? 5. Do you have survival supplies, food, and equipment that you might need on the dinghy? Do not forget that the boat is on fire and your time and access may be limited by that fact. How much time do you plan to spend fighting the fire? What if you or your crew are injured? I recommend that you practice this scenario if you cannot answer these questions to your own satisfaction. JUST REMEMBER - THE MOST IMPORTANT SURVIVAL TOOL IS A POSITIVE ATTITUDE! I sold my liferaft since I am mostly sailing on inland waters in good to moderate weather but if I had the funds and space, I would have one even here.
For a small pleasure boat, it will not have an outboard motor. Obviously, if you have a choice when your boat is on fire, take the dinghy with the outboard. That is not the usual scenario for deploying a life raft. I am just trying to answer a slightly unclear question which was asked - not make up another question altogether. When you are 25 miles offshore on your burning boat: 1. Is your dinghy in tow or on board? 2. Can you quickly deploy and board it? Can you board it from the water? 3. Can you quickly mount the outboard on it at sea? 4. Where do you keep the gas tank for it? Can you get that safely? 5. Do you have survival supplies, food, and equipment that you might need on the dinghy? Do not forget that the boat is on fire and your time and access may be limited by that fact. How much time do you plan to spend fighting the fire? What if you or your crew are injured? I recommend that you practice this scenario if you cannot answer these questions to your own satisfaction. JUST REMEMBER - THE MOST IMPORTANT SURVIVAL TOOL IS A POSITIVE ATTITUDE! I sold my liferaft since I am mostly sailing on inland waters in good to moderate weather but if I had the funds and space, I would have one even here.
Patrick I can close my eyes
Imagine that your boat is on fire. You throw your liferaft overboard and it inflates the huge water bags fill with water, Not much wind and the raft just floats beside the burning boat. Sparks and cinders ignite the liferaft as you desperately try to paddle the unweildy craft out of harms way. The propane tanks explode and debris sink the liferaft and you and your loved ones enter the cold water now covered with burning diesel!!! Ouch!!!! Realistically there will be situations where a powered dinghy would be the best and situations where a liferaft would best. But except for extreme weather I think being able to self rescue would be an asset. Unfortunately we can't prepare for every possible situation. But having read several sea survival stories I think that having the ability to maneuver would help. With the 25 miles offshore I was thinking about the guy who's boat sank while he was in the gulf stream off of Florida. He had no raft or PFD for that matter, Anyway he drifted with the current a long way north before he self rescued by swimming to a fishing boat. As for truely nasty weather I don't "plan" to be in a situation where I can't reach a safe anchorage. Tom
Imagine that your boat is on fire. You throw your liferaft overboard and it inflates the huge water bags fill with water, Not much wind and the raft just floats beside the burning boat. Sparks and cinders ignite the liferaft as you desperately try to paddle the unweildy craft out of harms way. The propane tanks explode and debris sink the liferaft and you and your loved ones enter the cold water now covered with burning diesel!!! Ouch!!!! Realistically there will be situations where a powered dinghy would be the best and situations where a liferaft would best. But except for extreme weather I think being able to self rescue would be an asset. Unfortunately we can't prepare for every possible situation. But having read several sea survival stories I think that having the ability to maneuver would help. With the 25 miles offshore I was thinking about the guy who's boat sank while he was in the gulf stream off of Florida. He had no raft or PFD for that matter, Anyway he drifted with the current a long way north before he self rescued by swimming to a fishing boat. As for truely nasty weather I don't "plan" to be in a situation where I can't reach a safe anchorage. Tom
The Q lacks as much as the A's...
Robert, the problem with your 1st question is that its too generic. Where do you sail, what kind of sailing, which seasons, will this change due to future cruising plans, and so on - all those things are relevant but missing. It's hard to offer helpful comment when we don't know if you are sailing on the Chesapeake or along the BC coast. The answer to your other question is that no one has likely used the Pudgy since it's a new design, at least according the to the web info I found. The problem with the answers you're being given is that we're all quick to wade into the pro/con liferaft topic rather than approaching the issue as a safety/survival topic. Again, your own circumstances - water temp, seasonal wx patterns, whether your carry a well equipped ditch bag incl a 406 Epirb, size, age and health of the crew - might suggest a Pudgy is a clever idea or a lousy one, or more likely something inbetween. FWIW we once sailed about 5,000 NM offshore after choosing a Tinker Traveller as our combo dinghy/liferaft. The concept was essentially the same (2 needs being met by a single vessel) altho' it was an inflatable and also underwent some extensive real-world testing in storm conditions to validate its design (unlike the Pudgy, I suspect). In the end, I concluded that our Tinker was less suitable as a liferaft than the concept might suggest; in short, the devil's in the details and the manhandling involved in actually deploying it successfully in an emergency was, I began to realize with time, more challenging than it might at first appear. Subsequently and when prepping for an ocean crossing, my wife and I helped test 38 liferafts in a wave pool for one of the Belvoir Pubs periodic liferaft articles. All my suspicions were confirmed and it was truly amazing how many ways there are for even 'real' liferafts to fail their crews when in the real world of even moderate waves. Still...a combo product like the Tinker or Pudgy might be better for you than a better tender but NO liferaft. It really depends on the kinds of needs you & your crew have, and you're in a far better position to determine that than any of us here could be. Jack
Robert, the problem with your 1st question is that its too generic. Where do you sail, what kind of sailing, which seasons, will this change due to future cruising plans, and so on - all those things are relevant but missing. It's hard to offer helpful comment when we don't know if you are sailing on the Chesapeake or along the BC coast. The answer to your other question is that no one has likely used the Pudgy since it's a new design, at least according the to the web info I found. The problem with the answers you're being given is that we're all quick to wade into the pro/con liferaft topic rather than approaching the issue as a safety/survival topic. Again, your own circumstances - water temp, seasonal wx patterns, whether your carry a well equipped ditch bag incl a 406 Epirb, size, age and health of the crew - might suggest a Pudgy is a clever idea or a lousy one, or more likely something inbetween. FWIW we once sailed about 5,000 NM offshore after choosing a Tinker Traveller as our combo dinghy/liferaft. The concept was essentially the same (2 needs being met by a single vessel) altho' it was an inflatable and also underwent some extensive real-world testing in storm conditions to validate its design (unlike the Pudgy, I suspect). In the end, I concluded that our Tinker was less suitable as a liferaft than the concept might suggest; in short, the devil's in the details and the manhandling involved in actually deploying it successfully in an emergency was, I began to realize with time, more challenging than it might at first appear. Subsequently and when prepping for an ocean crossing, my wife and I helped test 38 liferafts in a wave pool for one of the Belvoir Pubs periodic liferaft articles. All my suspicions were confirmed and it was truly amazing how many ways there are for even 'real' liferafts to fail their crews when in the real world of even moderate waves. Still...a combo product like the Tinker or Pudgy might be better for you than a better tender but NO liferaft. It really depends on the kinds of needs you & your crew have, and you're in a far better position to determine that than any of us here could be. Jack
The A's to your Q's
Jack, You are absolutely correct. My wife and I are in our early 50's and in good physical condition. Being from Texas we plan to cruise the Gulf Coast and the Bahamas down to the Windward Islands. Farther than this is a possibility and a Pacific crossing is likely. I read some of the testing results on the liferafts from the source that you mentioned and I was a bit put off. The possibilty of raft failure was alarming and disturbing. Decidely, I wish to be pro-active if the situation should ever arise. That involves an unsinkable, sailable craft. Of course we would have an epirb (406 Mhz) and all the extras that may come in handy to save one's life. But even an epirb can fail. At that point I believe it is time to act rather than react. Floating in a big rubber tube waiting to sink is not my idea of the way to go. Finally, as is everything with sailing I realize there will be comprimises. If the Pudgy is too bulky and combersome to use as an everyday tender, then I may have to re-think the value of this approach. Well, what do think? Robert
Jack, You are absolutely correct. My wife and I are in our early 50's and in good physical condition. Being from Texas we plan to cruise the Gulf Coast and the Bahamas down to the Windward Islands. Farther than this is a possibility and a Pacific crossing is likely. I read some of the testing results on the liferafts from the source that you mentioned and I was a bit put off. The possibilty of raft failure was alarming and disturbing. Decidely, I wish to be pro-active if the situation should ever arise. That involves an unsinkable, sailable craft. Of course we would have an epirb (406 Mhz) and all the extras that may come in handy to save one's life. But even an epirb can fail. At that point I believe it is time to act rather than react. Floating in a big rubber tube waiting to sink is not my idea of the way to go. Finally, as is everything with sailing I realize there will be comprimises. If the Pudgy is too bulky and combersome to use as an everyday tender, then I may have to re-think the value of this approach. Well, what do think? Robert
Cannot find Portland Pugie
Got a link for it online? I haven't seen or heard of this before. You can escape a fire in any old dinghy but the word liferaft has other connotations. Generally, if it is a boat without a top, you will not be able to stay aboard in a storm like we get around here for very long. Even if you can stay aboard, you will probably not want to live after a while. Trust me on that - I have seen someone give up on living due to seasickness and he was a strong and otherwise healthy man. It was very surprising to see the mental effect on him. Attitude is far more important than equipment. Equipment helps but you have to use it while you still have the option and the desire. You also need to think about the other practical aspects of this issue like can you deploy it and get in, etc. The epirbs available now are getting smaller and more inexpensive. Just don't make me come looking for it if you throw it away and it activates in the dumpster at midnight. The AFRCC will not like it either and you might get a really big fine like some others here have recently.
Got a link for it online? I haven't seen or heard of this before. You can escape a fire in any old dinghy but the word liferaft has other connotations. Generally, if it is a boat without a top, you will not be able to stay aboard in a storm like we get around here for very long. Even if you can stay aboard, you will probably not want to live after a while. Trust me on that - I have seen someone give up on living due to seasickness and he was a strong and otherwise healthy man. It was very surprising to see the mental effect on him. Attitude is far more important than equipment. Equipment helps but you have to use it while you still have the option and the desire. You also need to think about the other practical aspects of this issue like can you deploy it and get in, etc. The epirbs available now are getting smaller and more inexpensive. Just don't make me come looking for it if you throw it away and it activates in the dumpster at midnight. The AFRCC will not like it either and you might get a really big fine like some others here have recently.
Robert, my A...given your plans
Hearing (or is it seeing...?) your plans and a bit about you is a big help. And based on your initial cruising plans, it sounds like you're not in a rush and so you could engineer time to find and inspect a Pudgy (or other similar) tender. IMO if you are going to consider a combo choice, you should look at the Tinker products, as well. You are looking at relatively short-distance, inseason cruising in temperate waters and climate, at least insofar as Caribbean cruising is concerned. Assuming a full down-island run (Gulf Coast via Bahamas and down the Thorny Path and back), you will hardly be truly off the beaten path. Aside from the heavy commercial traffic in much of that area and the many yachties, the USCG C-130 patrols are extraordinarily dense; you could get yourself rescued any night using just a handheld VHF radio, assuming you had sufficient batteries to place a CH 16 Mayday from the raft every 5-10 mins. (As an example, a single C-130 does a full Caribbean run, from it's western boundary, across to the Eastern chain and back to Belize/Honduras, in one flight. They typically staff multiple flights each night out of St. Pete). I personally think there are multiple reasons for having a raft on that run, but I'm just trying to offer some context or perspective. Your Caribbean plans aren't nearly the equivalent of sailing to the Med or our into the Pacific. Obviously, you'll want to pick up your more expensive survival gear just before departing. As one illustration of this, I was quoted last month at the London Boat Show a $500 USD fee just to swap out the battery in my ACR Satellite 406 Eprib; that's <$100 less than buying a new one. Clearly, this logic also applies to the raft, the good/expensive SOLAS flares and such. But of course, you've got the time to do the research. Because combo products often do each function less well than a dedicated product - and simply in the spirit of FWIW - here would be my own preferences, in order, for a full Caribbean run: 1st choice: a Winslow Offshore raft; so much better than the other raft products, it's embarrassing to the raft industry; consider visiting the factory (near Sarasota) when on business travel or a vacation in that area, or perhaps when taking in the Miami boat show 2nd choice: a Winslow coastal raft; however, it would be a shame to buy this kind of prodcut and then want to head for the Pacific at a later date 3rd choice: a Tinker inflatable with emergency inflation bottles and a cover (for U/V protection); I wouldn't bother with the sailing rig unless you want it for recreational purposes; I wouldn't feel great about this choice for a Pacific run, either Good luck on the prep; it's actually when the fun part of an extended cruise begins! Jack
Hearing (or is it seeing...?) your plans and a bit about you is a big help. And based on your initial cruising plans, it sounds like you're not in a rush and so you could engineer time to find and inspect a Pudgy (or other similar) tender. IMO if you are going to consider a combo choice, you should look at the Tinker products, as well. You are looking at relatively short-distance, inseason cruising in temperate waters and climate, at least insofar as Caribbean cruising is concerned. Assuming a full down-island run (Gulf Coast via Bahamas and down the Thorny Path and back), you will hardly be truly off the beaten path. Aside from the heavy commercial traffic in much of that area and the many yachties, the USCG C-130 patrols are extraordinarily dense; you could get yourself rescued any night using just a handheld VHF radio, assuming you had sufficient batteries to place a CH 16 Mayday from the raft every 5-10 mins. (As an example, a single C-130 does a full Caribbean run, from it's western boundary, across to the Eastern chain and back to Belize/Honduras, in one flight. They typically staff multiple flights each night out of St. Pete). I personally think there are multiple reasons for having a raft on that run, but I'm just trying to offer some context or perspective. Your Caribbean plans aren't nearly the equivalent of sailing to the Med or our into the Pacific. Obviously, you'll want to pick up your more expensive survival gear just before departing. As one illustration of this, I was quoted last month at the London Boat Show a $500 USD fee just to swap out the battery in my ACR Satellite 406 Eprib; that's <$100 less than buying a new one. Clearly, this logic also applies to the raft, the good/expensive SOLAS flares and such. But of course, you've got the time to do the research. Because combo products often do each function less well than a dedicated product - and simply in the spirit of FWIW - here would be my own preferences, in order, for a full Caribbean run: 1st choice: a Winslow Offshore raft; so much better than the other raft products, it's embarrassing to the raft industry; consider visiting the factory (near Sarasota) when on business travel or a vacation in that area, or perhaps when taking in the Miami boat show 2nd choice: a Winslow coastal raft; however, it would be a shame to buy this kind of prodcut and then want to head for the Pacific at a later date 3rd choice: a Tinker inflatable with emergency inflation bottles and a cover (for U/V protection); I wouldn't bother with the sailing rig unless you want it for recreational purposes; I wouldn't feel great about this choice for a Pacific run, either Good luck on the prep; it's actually when the fun part of an extended cruise begins! Jack
Wait to buy a liferaft
Depending upon how quickly you plan to cross a lot of open water. Coastal sailing the gulf and the Bahamas a survival storm is unlikely. Buy a liferaft shortly before heading offshore for the big crossing. My reasoning is expense and the fact that you shouldn't get into really bad weather along the gulf coast and Bahamas. Remeber not to abandon ship until you climb up to the raft!!! I've read accounts of people leaving their sailboats and the sailboats surviving the storm. Also read accounts of sailboats floating with no crew to be found. I think that sailnet has an article about finding an abandoned sailboat. Tom
Depending upon how quickly you plan to cross a lot of open water. Coastal sailing the gulf and the Bahamas a survival storm is unlikely. Buy a liferaft shortly before heading offshore for the big crossing. My reasoning is expense and the fact that you shouldn't get into really bad weather along the gulf coast and Bahamas. Remeber not to abandon ship until you climb up to the raft!!! I've read accounts of people leaving their sailboats and the sailboats surviving the storm. Also read accounts of sailboats floating with no crew to be found. I think that sailnet has an article about finding an abandoned sailboat. Tom
Thanks
to all of you for your thoughts and time to answer. I agree with several points here and will consider them carefully. In the mean time, I have e-mailed the owner/president of the Portland Pudgy Co. and asked for any INDEPENDENT studies or tests that may have been done on this dink. IF I recieve anything I will share with you in an update. A lot of info about dinghies etc. and a whole lot of other stuff can be found on the BACK TO HOME PORT site. I found it doing a google search. The site for the Pudgy, Tinker, and many others can be found there. Thank you all again and may you all have Fair Winds and Following Seas. Robert
to all of you for your thoughts and time to answer. I agree with several points here and will consider them carefully. In the mean time, I have e-mailed the owner/president of the Portland Pudgy Co. and asked for any INDEPENDENT studies or tests that may have been done on this dink. IF I recieve anything I will share with you in an update. A lot of info about dinghies etc. and a whole lot of other stuff can be found on the BACK TO HOME PORT site. I found it doing a google search. The site for the Pudgy, Tinker, and many others can be found there. Thank you all again and may you all have Fair Winds and Following Seas. Robert
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