I posted this on the Macgregor site but thought you might get a kick out of it also. She has sailed just about as much as I have which isn't alot but I must have been paying attention more. We have a Macgregor 25 and were out in about 10 knot winds with the 150 genoa up and it was all going fine for about the first hour. Then I decided to go below to try to put up the pop top and I started to hear alot of screaming from my wife and sister inlaw and then the boat started to go over. Stuff started falling everywhere, the radio off of the table, the cooler on its side and everything else shifting to one side of the boat. I was finnaly able to get my foot out of the long hole on the port side which had become wedged between the insert and the lip thats supposed to hold the insert and put the top back down. After clearing out a path to get out of the cabin and getting back up into the cockpit the boat started to go over again. She's asking me what to do and I tell her to just let go of the tiller. After getting ahold of the tiller myself and getting underway again we start to talk about what happened. What I guess happened is that the winds picked up gradually and instead of turning into the wind she pulled the tiller and started to go across the wind and it was on from there. The rail of the boat ended up about 6" under water. My sister inlaw said that she felt like she was standing with her feet on the the opposite cockpit wall and her back against the lifeline and I would imagine that was probably not too far off. We had been heeling a bit earlier in the day but nowhere near that far. A little while later I ended up taking down the genoa and putting up the jib and didn't have any problems after that. I guess I have one question, Was I wrong to tell her to let go of the tiller? Were both relatively new to sailing and I'm a much more interested in learning more then her but want her to be able to sail in case I were to fall over or something. I'm sure we will get there eventually and at least we're able to laugh about this and not be afraid to go out again. I guess it's going to take some time for both of us to know what is the best thing to do in certain conditions. Thanks, and I had a great time regardless, Lee
Let the wife take the tiller yesterday...
- Thread starter Lee14289
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What I've always been told....
Lee I think I follow your logic a bit on her letting go of the tiller (the boat will round up and settle itself). But I would say that in that situation, the first thing to do is sheet out the main, and the jib too if possible. But get the pressure off of the sails first, get the boat stabilized, then worry about what direction to steer. Fair winds, Ron
Lee I think I follow your logic a bit on her letting go of the tiller (the boat will round up and settle itself). But I would say that in that situation, the first thing to do is sheet out the main, and the jib too if possible. But get the pressure off of the sails first, get the boat stabilized, then worry about what direction to steer. Fair winds, Ron
Irons
Letting go the tiller will (usually) cause the boat to round-up. Nothing wrong with that approach. But, in a gust that's caught you by surprise, letting go the mainsheet will stabilize the boat (a lot) faster. I'd practice with her in normal conditions - you'll both get a feel for how fast the boat levels and stops when you put her "in irons" by letting go both the mainsheet and tiller. Sounds like a fun afternoon! Good luck, Drew
Letting go the tiller will (usually) cause the boat to round-up. Nothing wrong with that approach. But, in a gust that's caught you by surprise, letting go the mainsheet will stabilize the boat (a lot) faster. I'd practice with her in normal conditions - you'll both get a feel for how fast the boat levels and stops when you put her "in irons" by letting go both the mainsheet and tiller. Sounds like a fun afternoon! Good luck, Drew
Letting the tiller go
only works when you are sailing upwind. If you are sailing on a broad reach, it is better to fall off as the puff begins to hit which will stall the sails and reduce heeling forces. Rounding up in this case will increase relative wind speed, heeling force and possibly bringing the boat into a broach before it can come into irons. Easing the main and/or Genoa may be the next step before shortening sails. Believe me, I have been there. Jose
only works when you are sailing upwind. If you are sailing on a broad reach, it is better to fall off as the puff begins to hit which will stall the sails and reduce heeling forces. Rounding up in this case will increase relative wind speed, heeling force and possibly bringing the boat into a broach before it can come into irons. Easing the main and/or Genoa may be the next step before shortening sails. Believe me, I have been there. Jose
If you can't rely on your wife - who can you trust
I want my wife to be calm and confident in difficult situations; otherwise, I fear disaster is just waiting to happen. Yesterday was the day I've been waiting for since we bought our Starwind 27 about a month ago. Before we bought our boat, my wife had zero experience, I have years of experience with small boats. So this boat is a learning experience for her and me, too. We (just the two of us) were out in 20 knots with higher gusts. Our only jib is a 110% and I did not reef the main (I haven't done that yet - but need to get familiar). We started out as normal, Sue is at the helm while I hank the sails and make all the trim adjustments. While setting the jib, it was obvious that being overpowered in the gusts required constant attention to the main sheet. We don't have a cam cleat for the jib, and tying off on a deck cleat is really ackward for crew because the cleats are behind the wheel, so I set the jib cars forward to allow more twist. I tell her what I am doing and why, so she knows, too. By the way, is that a correct response in overpowering conditions when you can't constantly monitor the jib sheet? We tacked upwind for about 45 minutes with Sue at the helm, so I could pay full attention to the sail trim. I told Sue that she had to be calm at the helm. Her first reaction was to bear-off in the gusts, just as you described. I had to spill wind in a hurry! After telling her that we are better off if she bears into the wind, she reacted by pinching too high, too quick (as if just "letting go"). She soon learned that this response is also not good ... you get a violent shaking of the sails and crew, while braced for the heel, can be knocked off balance. The conditions were perfect for her to learn that by reacting confidently in a controlled manner, we could work together to maintain a stable position in overpowered conditions. We tacked through a narrow "chute" in the lake where the wind was funnelled, and by the time we were at the upwind end, I had my workout! When we turned downwind on a series of broad reaches, I took the helm and she manned the main sheet. This gave her a chance to unwind a little, but there were some gusts that made the reach a little scary. At one point, after she cleated the main sheet, a gust really pushed us over so I told her she has to be ready to anticipate the gusts. Her first reaction, naturally, was to release too much. It takes some getting used to, to learn how to anticipate and react accordingly. I was really happy that she adjusted the traveller cars back to the middle on her own, (because I explained it earlier) when we turned back upwind to head towards our slip. We spent just about 2 hours under sail and I learned a couple things, too. I can rely on my wife and we could use at least another person when the conditions are challenging! I also am very pleased with the way our boat handles, but it needs some hardware updates to make it really sweet.
I want my wife to be calm and confident in difficult situations; otherwise, I fear disaster is just waiting to happen. Yesterday was the day I've been waiting for since we bought our Starwind 27 about a month ago. Before we bought our boat, my wife had zero experience, I have years of experience with small boats. So this boat is a learning experience for her and me, too. We (just the two of us) were out in 20 knots with higher gusts. Our only jib is a 110% and I did not reef the main (I haven't done that yet - but need to get familiar). We started out as normal, Sue is at the helm while I hank the sails and make all the trim adjustments. While setting the jib, it was obvious that being overpowered in the gusts required constant attention to the main sheet. We don't have a cam cleat for the jib, and tying off on a deck cleat is really ackward for crew because the cleats are behind the wheel, so I set the jib cars forward to allow more twist. I tell her what I am doing and why, so she knows, too. By the way, is that a correct response in overpowering conditions when you can't constantly monitor the jib sheet? We tacked upwind for about 45 minutes with Sue at the helm, so I could pay full attention to the sail trim. I told Sue that she had to be calm at the helm. Her first reaction was to bear-off in the gusts, just as you described. I had to spill wind in a hurry! After telling her that we are better off if she bears into the wind, she reacted by pinching too high, too quick (as if just "letting go"). She soon learned that this response is also not good ... you get a violent shaking of the sails and crew, while braced for the heel, can be knocked off balance. The conditions were perfect for her to learn that by reacting confidently in a controlled manner, we could work together to maintain a stable position in overpowered conditions. We tacked through a narrow "chute" in the lake where the wind was funnelled, and by the time we were at the upwind end, I had my workout! When we turned downwind on a series of broad reaches, I took the helm and she manned the main sheet. This gave her a chance to unwind a little, but there were some gusts that made the reach a little scary. At one point, after she cleated the main sheet, a gust really pushed us over so I told her she has to be ready to anticipate the gusts. Her first reaction, naturally, was to release too much. It takes some getting used to, to learn how to anticipate and react accordingly. I was really happy that she adjusted the traveller cars back to the middle on her own, (because I explained it earlier) when we turned back upwind to head towards our slip. We spent just about 2 hours under sail and I learned a couple things, too. I can rely on my wife and we could use at least another person when the conditions are challenging! I also am very pleased with the way our boat handles, but it needs some hardware updates to make it really sweet.
To Summarize
While teaching sailing, I have every class do this very exercise: Let go of the tiller while sailing to windward and see what happens. Every boat responds a bit differently but all of them respond similarly. Most boats will automatically tack, backwind the jib, throw the bow to leeward, throw the tiller to the opposite side, jibe (which is why you don't do this downwind), round up, tack, backwind, etc. etc forever until you hit the shore somewhere. Most boats will not move more than two boat lengths from their original position while doing this. Personally, I think everybody should know exactly where their boat would go if you let go of the tiller so you'll know where to swim to catch it if you fall off while single-handing. Now, there are some stipulations to all of this: 1) If the wind is blowing really hard and you have the big jib up, you are going to experience a lot of heeling when the jib is backwinded. On the other hand, what would you be doing with the big jib up if the wind is blowing really hard? 2) Begin the exercise with both sails sheeted for balance. If you release the main when you start this, obviously you're iontroducing lee helm into the boat and it will jibe first....not good. I agree with the folks above that said you should ease the main to dump a gust BUT, I think this applies when you ALREADY have the mainsheet in your hand, no? Other wise, the FASTEST way to dump the wind is to head the boat up slightly. No need to go to irons (and beat your sails to death) but just head up slightly to change the angle of the sails to the wind. This, of course, takes PRACTICE to learn exactly how much is "a little bit" but if I have a drink in my hand already, I'm certainly not setting it down to trim some sail. Plus, if I had to ease the sail, now I'm gonna have to trim it again after the gust goes by...what a pain. I think the steering device (that's already in my hand) is the easiest way to luff the sails (even if just slightly) if needed. If you find yourself having to do this a lot, it's time to finish the drink and reduce sail area. Remember: "If you have to set your drink down, you're working too hard."
While teaching sailing, I have every class do this very exercise: Let go of the tiller while sailing to windward and see what happens. Every boat responds a bit differently but all of them respond similarly. Most boats will automatically tack, backwind the jib, throw the bow to leeward, throw the tiller to the opposite side, jibe (which is why you don't do this downwind), round up, tack, backwind, etc. etc forever until you hit the shore somewhere. Most boats will not move more than two boat lengths from their original position while doing this. Personally, I think everybody should know exactly where their boat would go if you let go of the tiller so you'll know where to swim to catch it if you fall off while single-handing. Now, there are some stipulations to all of this: 1) If the wind is blowing really hard and you have the big jib up, you are going to experience a lot of heeling when the jib is backwinded. On the other hand, what would you be doing with the big jib up if the wind is blowing really hard? 2) Begin the exercise with both sails sheeted for balance. If you release the main when you start this, obviously you're iontroducing lee helm into the boat and it will jibe first....not good. I agree with the folks above that said you should ease the main to dump a gust BUT, I think this applies when you ALREADY have the mainsheet in your hand, no? Other wise, the FASTEST way to dump the wind is to head the boat up slightly. No need to go to irons (and beat your sails to death) but just head up slightly to change the angle of the sails to the wind. This, of course, takes PRACTICE to learn exactly how much is "a little bit" but if I have a drink in my hand already, I'm certainly not setting it down to trim some sail. Plus, if I had to ease the sail, now I'm gonna have to trim it again after the gust goes by...what a pain. I think the steering device (that's already in my hand) is the easiest way to luff the sails (even if just slightly) if needed. If you find yourself having to do this a lot, it's time to finish the drink and reduce sail area. Remember: "If you have to set your drink down, you're working too hard."
scott...re: more twist in the jib.
If I read your post correctly you said you positioned the jib leads forward to allow more twist. This is wrong! Move them back to allow more twist. When the leads are forward there will be more tension on the leech than the foot... creating a fuller bottom with a tighter leech = less twist. By moving it back you release tension on the leech by transferring it to the foot... flatter bottom, looser leech = more twist. Compare the mainsail's outhaul and mainsheet controls. To depower the sail you might tension the outhaul to flatten the lower third of the sail then ease the sheet to induce twist. This is essentially how the jib leads work. My final comment, and this comes from personal experience, is to pactice reefing at the dock so everyone knows what to do. And if you're even considering reefing, go ahead and reef...you can always take it out.
If I read your post correctly you said you positioned the jib leads forward to allow more twist. This is wrong! Move them back to allow more twist. When the leads are forward there will be more tension on the leech than the foot... creating a fuller bottom with a tighter leech = less twist. By moving it back you release tension on the leech by transferring it to the foot... flatter bottom, looser leech = more twist. Compare the mainsail's outhaul and mainsheet controls. To depower the sail you might tension the outhaul to flatten the lower third of the sail then ease the sheet to induce twist. This is essentially how the jib leads work. My final comment, and this comes from personal experience, is to pactice reefing at the dock so everyone knows what to do. And if you're even considering reefing, go ahead and reef...you can always take it out.
You handled it well
Best part is that you provided encouragement and guidance to your wife, a great challenge under difficult circumstances. Attaboy.
Best part is that you provided encouragement and guidance to your wife, a great challenge under difficult circumstances. Attaboy.
Thanks Joe!
I've brought up a few sail trim topics on this forum and am glad to be corrected when I have something backward! I did notice that it didn't help when I moved the cars forward. I had them set back earlier and moved them forward before getting into a series of short tacks. Then had no time or inclination to move them again because the old cars really don't want to move when under load (coulda shoulda moved the windward cars when not loaded)! Anyway we soon turned around and headed downwind. BTW, my son is thinking about going to USD. I told him I want to visit often and go sailing!
I've brought up a few sail trim topics on this forum and am glad to be corrected when I have something backward! I did notice that it didn't help when I moved the cars forward. I had them set back earlier and moved them forward before getting into a series of short tacks. Then had no time or inclination to move them again because the old cars really don't want to move when under load (coulda shoulda moved the windward cars when not loaded)! Anyway we soon turned around and headed downwind. BTW, my son is thinking about going to USD. I told him I want to visit often and go sailing!
- Jan 22, 2008
- 519
seems everyone missed this point
Don't pop the top when under sail. It increases windage, and leakage should you go over, but I guess you found that out by experience already. I am actually surprised that you were able to pop the top. Most Macs will only not pop up while undersail because of the boom vang. As per instructions to the crew in a worst case scenerio, (ie. I fall overboard), my diatribe is uncleat both jib and main, let go the tiller, and start throwing floatables at me. The boat will do the rest.
Don't pop the top when under sail. It increases windage, and leakage should you go over, but I guess you found that out by experience already. I am actually surprised that you were able to pop the top. Most Macs will only not pop up while undersail because of the boom vang. As per instructions to the crew in a worst case scenerio, (ie. I fall overboard), my diatribe is uncleat both jib and main, let go the tiller, and start throwing floatables at me. The boat will do the rest.
Four more things
1- Everyone one the boat should have a PFD on. We have auto-inflatables that are easy to wear and wont overheat you. Especially when you are new at this don't leave the dock without a PFD on. Your story is a perfect illustration - had your boat gone over, or your sister-in-law gone overboard - it woud have been too late to grab for a PFD. 2- Have a radio or cell phone right at hand so you can call for help. 3- Get a throw rope. West Marine and others sell these for about $30. It is a bag with 50' of floatable line that you can toss to the person overboard and use to haul them back to the boat. 4- Make sure your wife knows how to lower the outboard and get it going. If all else fails the "iron genny" could save you. We've never been as far over as you went. In a way you are lucky to have experienced it. Now you know that your boat can take a hit and bounce back up. Happy sailing!
1- Everyone one the boat should have a PFD on. We have auto-inflatables that are easy to wear and wont overheat you. Especially when you are new at this don't leave the dock without a PFD on. Your story is a perfect illustration - had your boat gone over, or your sister-in-law gone overboard - it woud have been too late to grab for a PFD. 2- Have a radio or cell phone right at hand so you can call for help. 3- Get a throw rope. West Marine and others sell these for about $30. It is a bag with 50' of floatable line that you can toss to the person overboard and use to haul them back to the boat. 4- Make sure your wife knows how to lower the outboard and get it going. If all else fails the "iron genny" could save you. We've never been as far over as you went. In a way you are lucky to have experienced it. Now you know that your boat can take a hit and bounce back up. Happy sailing!
PFD's
The inflatable PFD's are great. For the correct application. As a dealer of one of the best out on the market I want to make sure that with any pfd that the wearer actually go into the water under a controlled situation to see what happens while wearing whichever type is used. During an emergency situation people can panic and not react like they should. Let's be safe out there. Accidents are just that. And one never really knows when they will occur.
The inflatable PFD's are great. For the correct application. As a dealer of one of the best out on the market I want to make sure that with any pfd that the wearer actually go into the water under a controlled situation to see what happens while wearing whichever type is used. During an emergency situation people can panic and not react like they should. Let's be safe out there. Accidents are just that. And one never really knows when they will occur.
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