Leaks
- Thread starter Mr Mac
- Start date
I am in the same boat. Just curious why you think it's your toe rail rather than the chainplates or window seals? Where do you see water coming in?. Glad to see your a Cardinal fan. I grew up about 100 miles from Saint Louis. We'll get em next year.
All my standing rigging is connected to the toe rails so no chain plates or other thru hull openings aside from the ports and forward hatch. The last time we were out there my wife saw a couple of drops inside and when I reach under the ledge inside I can feel water on the threads of the screws holding the toe rail down.
Attachments
Tomorrow I am starting to reseal the toe rail as you are doing. First tightening all the bolts. This is a two person job. One on the top holding the bolt from moving and one inside the boat turning the nut. After this is done I plan to run a bead of 5200 along the toe rail. Your "chain plates" are the U-bolts fastened through the toe rail and deck. These could be changed with new as you see fit.
I discovered last week that about 80% of the toe rail bolts on my Hunter 25 were not tight. As Paul mentioned, it's a two person job and some of them are difficult to get at.
Mike
Mike
Here is a post that I made several years ago about my experience with tightening the toe rail bolts. Note that you might still have a bead of butyl tape caulk under the toe rail and between the deck and hull joint. When tightening again, this could reseal everything, eliminating the need for re-caulking. This was the case on my 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36 and I have had no leaks along the toe rail or toe rail bolts since I tightened three/four years ago.
On the subject of caulking along the outside of the toe rail, give this some thought before doing. I would think that the odds are that a seal on the outside will not hold for long. Then any water that gets in underneath a failed section of seal might tend to get dammed up within a section of not failed caulk and could make matters worse.
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.... You have also mentioned that you suspect toe rail bolts as another possible leak point.
Here is the text of a post from a ways back that might be useful. There's a good chance that the toe rail bolts have never been tightened since manufacture.
I recognize this is a Cherubini 37 thread, but in case some H36 Cherubini owners are lurking as I am, its the same on the my 1980 Cherubini H36. All the bolts are accessable (except for a couple). When I bought my boat 3.5 years ago, I found some water was entering during rain and also when sailing with waves sometimes over the rail. Solution was to clamp the toe rail bolt heads from the deck side with vice grips wedged against the toe rail. Then using a deep socket, various socket extension fittings, and a universal swivel attachment, tighten the nuts from underneath. The wedged vice grips kept the bolt itself from turning and breaking the caulk seal. (Would have been easier with a second person on deck with a phillips head screw driver to prevent the bolt from turning. But I didn't have a second person that day.). Virtually all the bolts easily were cinched up at least a turn or two before feeling snug. After tightening, the water leaks have stopped completely for the past three years. Interestingly even after 30 years since construction, still pliable caulk was forced out from under the toe rail in places. I think it was probably butyl tape. Another benefit of tightening the toe rail bolts, and hence also the deck to hull joint: I no longer have various cracking noises when I cinch in the jib sheets tight. (jib sheets are led through snap blocks on the toe rail)
On the subject of caulking along the outside of the toe rail, give this some thought before doing. I would think that the odds are that a seal on the outside will not hold for long. Then any water that gets in underneath a failed section of seal might tend to get dammed up within a section of not failed caulk and could make matters worse.
=====================================================
.... You have also mentioned that you suspect toe rail bolts as another possible leak point.
Here is the text of a post from a ways back that might be useful. There's a good chance that the toe rail bolts have never been tightened since manufacture.
I recognize this is a Cherubini 37 thread, but in case some H36 Cherubini owners are lurking as I am, its the same on the my 1980 Cherubini H36. All the bolts are accessable (except for a couple). When I bought my boat 3.5 years ago, I found some water was entering during rain and also when sailing with waves sometimes over the rail. Solution was to clamp the toe rail bolt heads from the deck side with vice grips wedged against the toe rail. Then using a deep socket, various socket extension fittings, and a universal swivel attachment, tighten the nuts from underneath. The wedged vice grips kept the bolt itself from turning and breaking the caulk seal. (Would have been easier with a second person on deck with a phillips head screw driver to prevent the bolt from turning. But I didn't have a second person that day.). Virtually all the bolts easily were cinched up at least a turn or two before feeling snug. After tightening, the water leaks have stopped completely for the past three years. Interestingly even after 30 years since construction, still pliable caulk was forced out from under the toe rail in places. I think it was probably butyl tape. Another benefit of tightening the toe rail bolts, and hence also the deck to hull joint: I no longer have various cracking noises when I cinch in the jib sheets tight. (jib sheets are led through snap blocks on the toe rail)
Mac's toerail bolts
Mac, your best bet is, when you can, to remove those 'chainplates' (angled bit of SS plate) and to inspect the toerail under it. Most likely it has become corroded. The proper fix then is to etch the metal and fill with some kind of epoxy, such as WEST-system's with aluminum shavings, and then seal with UV barrier such as varnish or paint. In some places on mine I merely scratched it clean and 'filled' with black 4200. Though it showed some signs of corrosion, it was in remarkably good shape for an example of stainless steel bolted directly to aluminum, with no insulator, after 40 years.
Any time I have to remove a toerail bolt for anything, it goes back as a new SS 1/4-20 HHCS (hex head cap screw) with a Delrin washer under the head and a wider SS fender washer under the flange, with 4200 or 5200 to seal the threads in the hole and under the head. (I use HHCS for everything going through the deck or hull because it makes the next removal a one-man job, with the help of a vise-grip or box-end wrench left alone on one side.) For some reason the factory used bronze washers for these, thus imposing tri-metallic corrosion: aluminum rail + SS carriage bolts + bronze washers = worst possible combination. By now the bronze washers under the flange are pretty blue; but they are not pink yet. And they lasted 40 years on my boat and the rail still does not leak.
When I am done painting the hull and deck this season, I will run a bead of black 4200 Fast-Cure along the inside and outside. The bead along the deck and rail will be done first, to allow anything under the rail to get out. Later-- almost right before commissioning time-- I will run another bead along the hull and rail. This can be done very tidily by the use of decent fine-line tape, allowing maybe 3/16" for the bead itself. Then run a finger, wet with tap water, along the bead to skin it over before removing the tape, and allow a full 3-4 days for it to cure before walking or washing near it.
All my stanchion bases and their braces are bolted through the toerail. Also, I replaced the bent-SS plate with 2500-lb SS U-bolts for the shroud attachments. I have two more at the after corners for the backstay and will be adding two more for running backstays as well. All of this hardware, properly bedded and sized, will add strength and stiffness to the toerail, which is by design and by default the strongest element of the whole boat.
From the factory the toerail was bedded in 5200. I would not, for any reason, use anything less than 4200 for this, and then only if it's all I happen to have. It is NOT an application in which butyl tape is appropriate; as butyl tape has very minimal strength in either shear or tensile loads, both of which affect the toerail. The same goes for silicone, for the same reasons. Even just a properly-applied bead along the edges, done in 4200/5200, will add stiffness and keep out all water.
* * *
Mac, your best bet is, when you can, to remove those 'chainplates' (angled bit of SS plate) and to inspect the toerail under it. Most likely it has become corroded. The proper fix then is to etch the metal and fill with some kind of epoxy, such as WEST-system's with aluminum shavings, and then seal with UV barrier such as varnish or paint. In some places on mine I merely scratched it clean and 'filled' with black 4200. Though it showed some signs of corrosion, it was in remarkably good shape for an example of stainless steel bolted directly to aluminum, with no insulator, after 40 years.
Any time I have to remove a toerail bolt for anything, it goes back as a new SS 1/4-20 HHCS (hex head cap screw) with a Delrin washer under the head and a wider SS fender washer under the flange, with 4200 or 5200 to seal the threads in the hole and under the head. (I use HHCS for everything going through the deck or hull because it makes the next removal a one-man job, with the help of a vise-grip or box-end wrench left alone on one side.) For some reason the factory used bronze washers for these, thus imposing tri-metallic corrosion: aluminum rail + SS carriage bolts + bronze washers = worst possible combination. By now the bronze washers under the flange are pretty blue; but they are not pink yet. And they lasted 40 years on my boat and the rail still does not leak.
When I am done painting the hull and deck this season, I will run a bead of black 4200 Fast-Cure along the inside and outside. The bead along the deck and rail will be done first, to allow anything under the rail to get out. Later-- almost right before commissioning time-- I will run another bead along the hull and rail. This can be done very tidily by the use of decent fine-line tape, allowing maybe 3/16" for the bead itself. Then run a finger, wet with tap water, along the bead to skin it over before removing the tape, and allow a full 3-4 days for it to cure before walking or washing near it.
All my stanchion bases and their braces are bolted through the toerail. Also, I replaced the bent-SS plate with 2500-lb SS U-bolts for the shroud attachments. I have two more at the after corners for the backstay and will be adding two more for running backstays as well. All of this hardware, properly bedded and sized, will add strength and stiffness to the toerail, which is by design and by default the strongest element of the whole boat.
From the factory the toerail was bedded in 5200. I would not, for any reason, use anything less than 4200 for this, and then only if it's all I happen to have. It is NOT an application in which butyl tape is appropriate; as butyl tape has very minimal strength in either shear or tensile loads, both of which affect the toerail. The same goes for silicone, for the same reasons. Even just a properly-applied bead along the edges, done in 4200/5200, will add stiffness and keep out all water.
* * *
Tighten bolts + 5200 bead
Tightening every bolt I could reach would last a year. About five years ago, I added a bead of 5200 on the deck seam of the toe rail. (The toerail flange on the hull faces down - less chance for leaking there.)
Haven't had a leak from the deck/hull seam of our '77 h27since then.
Tightening every bolt I could reach would last a year. About five years ago, I added a bead of 5200 on the deck seam of the toe rail. (The toerail flange on the hull faces down - less chance for leaking there.)
Haven't had a leak from the deck/hull seam of our '77 h27since then.