Leaks!

[jorgefife]

On both sides, at around the fourth port hole, quite a bit of water comes in, and I looked one day and suspect that the culprit are the toe rail bolts in that area
My question:
Can I use, temporarily, a clear latex acrylic silicone to at least remedy the situation?
I know what I should eventually do: summon some help, remove the bolts and insert 4200 into the hole and then tighten
Since I am in the business of doors, I glaze the glass using the same product, which hardens but creates at least a seal and no water should come in.
I will do what is right, but for now... or should I use something else?
Thanks for helping

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

'temporarily, a clear latex acrylic silicone' = no. There is nothing 'temporary' about silicone. The rule for silicone is 'once silicone, forever silicone.' Once you use it, you're stuck with it, because its residue will never come off sufficiently to use a proper sealant or bedding compound later. And it isn't what should bed down a toerail.

See if you can loosen the bolts and get a putty knife under the rail. If this is so, you can use something proper, 4200 or 5200 which is what it was put down with. Wedge it up a little with a screwdriver, chisel or flatbar to give yourself some room. If you cannot raise it very much that's actually a good sign-- it means the rest is properly bonded. Don't disturb it.

I have mended a few minor fixes along the toerail with WEST epoxy. An expert in the neighboring yard heard me say this and criticized it because of epoxy's brittleness; and the toerail does need to wiggle a little-- hence its being set in 5200. But in a small area or two this will not be a problem and epoxy flows much better than anything thicker. The problem with epoxy is that this IS the problem-- it will flow far farther than you expect it to, vacating the area in which you want it and finding its way out other bolt holes some distance away. So, a caution.

If you can remove the bolts you may be able to seal just the holes in 5200, because after all that's where the water is entering the cabin. But without getting a good bond under the metal you enable the water under it to go farther and find a new place to enter it. It's got to be bedded down all along the gap and as far underneath it as you can go. I heard of a C44 admitting water over the galley (lowest point of the deck) but it was really entering the deck at the chainplates 10 ft forward and running along the flange. (Obviously with a wooden deck this was a potential disaster; but it's been fixed.) You don't fool water once it gets to where it shouldn't be.

As a temporary fix, till you can dry it out and use 5200, you can use electrical tape which seals incredibly well against the elements. Be sure to wipe down the surrounding area with acetone which will enhance the tape's adhesion. You'll also need to know that beyond where you tape is NOT leaking or else you'll still have the leak and possibly blame the tape; but the tape will really hold it out if you get it on the right place. That will survive a winter on its own. But please-- avoid the silicone. It will prohibit you absolutely from successfully using the right thing later.

 

[jorgefife]

John
Thanks for the advice, so solicone is out
You say the water comes in through the bolt holes; or do you think it comes through the gap just under the toe rails?
Should I remove the bolt, squeeze a good amount of 4200 into the bolt hole, then tighten it?
If I lift the rail, do i just squeeze into the gap?
Never done this kind of thing before...

 

[rardiH36]

Jorge:

1) My experience with silicone caulk matches DianaOfBurlington's. Once applied somewhere, getting anything to stick again to the surface is really difficult; even after multiple "washings" with acetone or lacquer thinner. I once (10 years ago) used silicone on a joint between a wood door frame and the adjacent stucco on my home. It didn't stick to either and even now, I can't get any good quality caulk to adhere to the silicone impregnated stucco and wood. I refuse to use it anywhere now.

2) Here's a cut-and-paste from a past post by me about toe rail leaks and correction on my boat. If your H33 has the same toe rail method as my 1980 H36, Hunter used butyl tape as caulk. It is still pliable 30 years later. If your toe rail bolts have never been tightened, it may be all you need.

.... I recognize this is a Cherubini 37 thread, but in case some H36 Cherubini owners are lurking as I am, its the same on the my 1980 Cherubini H36. All the bolts are accessable (except for a couple). When I bought my boat 3.5 years ago, I found some water was entering during rain and also when sailing with waves sometimes over the rail. Solution was to clamp the toe rail bolt heads from the deck side with vice grips wedged against the toe rail. Then using a deep socket, various socket extension fittings, and a universal swivel attachment, tighten the nuts from underneath. The wedged vice grips kept the bolt itself from turning and breaking the caulk seal. (Would have been easier with a second person on deck with a phillips head screw driver to prevent the bolt from turning. But I didn't have a second person that day.) After tightening, the water leaks have stopped completely for the past three years. Interestingly even after 30 years since construction, still pliable caulk was forced out from under the toe rail in places. I think it was probably butyl tape.

Another benefit of tightening the toe rail bolts, and hence also the deck to hull joint: I no longer have various cracking noises when I cinch in the jib sheets tight. (Jib sheets are led through snap blocks on the toe rail)

 

[jorgefife]

Dear Rardi,
What a great suggestion!
I will do that, because a while ago, when I was inspecting the lazarette compartment to istal a holder for an oar, etc, I noticed that those nuts inside (toe rail nuts) were very loose)
I thank John also for his help
I have one more question, if you can help:
What is the size of the nuts attaching the bolts to the toe rail?
I am one hour away from the boat, and would like to buy a deep socket before I go, but I like the idea of the vice grip!
In fact, I will tie some string to it, so in case it comes loose, it will not fall overboard!
( I think I will patent this last comment, sounds brilliant even for a novice like me!)
Thank you all again!
Jorge

 

[sandpiper10471]

I have to agree with Rardi. My H33 rails were definitely bedded in butyl and a little snugging may be all that is required. However, the water may not be coming from there. As JC said, water can migrate great distances before it manifests itself visibly. There is a very good chance the water is coming from deck mounted handrails or the portlights themselves and then running through the core or along the liner inside. A moisture meter might help you determine if coring is the case. Water colour is also a big hint in diagnosis. Dirty brown indicates core infiltration.

 

[Ed Schenck]

Jorge, if like mine you will need a 7/16" deep socket for the inside and a large philips screwdriver up top. If you have no one to help then a large visegrip can hold the top, it will jam against the toerail. It will also leave grooves in the bolt head.

Because it is butyl the recommendation is to tighten the nut and not let the bolt turn. But I work alone. So I use three or four small visegrips on the nuts below. Then I go topside with the screwdriver and another visegrip on the handle. That way I can do three or four at a time.

 

[Merlin Clark]

If you try to take one socket to your boat, sure as anything it'll be the wrong size;-)
These are good "hobbiest quality" tools at a very reasonable price: http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
And Maine Sail has a great tutorial on bedding with butyl tape: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117172
I had removed all my trim and almost all my hardware when painting my boat and rebedded with the tape in MS's article and am happy with my dry boat.

 

[Sylvain]

My experience with water intrusion was from the chain plates and stanchions. These are the parts that move a lot. I had to remove them all, grind and rebuild and, in some places, recore. I sandwiched the chain plates with 3M 5200 and it's holding up. I also back plated the inner stanchion bolts so that the stress is distributed on a larger area.

Toe rails, in my case, are still (knock on epoxy) properly sealed with butyl.

Good luck!

 

[jorgefife]

I managed to get some help, and proceeded to tighten up the nuts from the inside ( it takes a 1/2" by the way)
I must have turned at least 10 times before the bolt moved at the top of the deck: that tells me they were very loose
I tightened not only where the water was coming in, but in front and at the back of the culprits
One of them will not move, so I have to get a (drexel?) tool and gind off the bolt and replace with a new one
I think this will take care of the problem
Placed a bucket and a container inside, so I will see
I doubt it is the chain plates or the stanchions: I removed all those 1 year ago, and bedded the deck with 4200

 

[rardiH36]

Hi Jorge:

Yours is a 33'. Mine is a 36'. So probably some differences. But the same generation and production. So your report of needing several turns on the toe rail to hull flange bolts before snugging up the tension matches my experience. If your boat's toe rail and deck-to-hull joint was originally bedded with butyl tape/caulk like mine was/is, then by tightening, its a good chance that the butyl has been pressed a lot into the leaking voids. In all likelihood, the last time the through-bolts between the toe rail into the hull flange were tightened was by Hunter when your boat was built. Look at it this way ... your efforts today ....other than than a few hour's time, didn't hurt anything. And likely helped a lot!

rardi

 

[gray_penguin]

I fixed a lot of leaks on my '78 33' by tightening up the bolts. I had a few break on me though. I think I want to replace all of the toe rail bolts with hex head bolts instead of the phillips head bolts that are on it now. The biggest problem with this idea is some of the bolts are not accessible. On the bolts I had to replace, I used the butyl tape I got from MaineSail to wrap around the bolt before I put them in the hole. I put enough tape on the bolts to make it squeeze out between the washer and fiberglass on the inside.

 

[Ed Schenck]

I know you are supposed to turn the nut and not the bolt. But wouldn't it be nice if the nuts were all large wingnuts. If the "wings" were long enough they would jam against the side glass. Then you could periodically go outside with your philips(I clamp on my visegrips) and tighten them.

 

[Blaise]

If your boat is a 1979, or 1980, the hull deck joint was sealed with 5200. Hunter changed to the rubber tape after that. My toe rails have been off the boat twice. It has been my experiance that most leaks in the toe rail area are actually lifeline stanchion leaks. It only took two guys at Galati Marine an hour to re-install the toe rail. Getting it off was another matter.

 

[jorgefife]

Grey penguin
Please give some details of the butyl tape
You say you wrap it around the bolt and then tighten from underneath?
Ed,
What a great idea the wing nut set up!
Then they would jam against the inside, and simply tighten from outside

 

[gray_penguin]

Hey Jorge,
I can't seem to locate my notes on this and I will not be back to my boat till next month, but I think I used Stainless Steel Hex Bolts 1/4-20 x 1-3/4, washers and nuts. These bolts have a shank (section with no threads) of about 5/8". I applied a single layer of the butyl tape around the shank and about 1/8" into the thread. I also formed it to be a little thicker under the head of the bolt. I had my step dad helping, he inserted the bolt and used a wrench to keep it from turning. I then put a washer or two and the nut on and tightened it down from underneth. My hope was to have the butyl be squeezed into the hole around the bolt to form a seal. Not sure how effective it was, but I do know for sure Hunter used butyl on my 78 33' Hunter hull/deck joint and after I tightened down the bolts a lot of my leaks stopped.

 

[Ed Schenck]

Blaise, your boat must have been a one-off. My '79 has black butyl rubber under the toerail. After all these years it still squeezes out. When I painted the deck I first had to clean the few spots where it was peeking out.

 

[Blaise]

Ed,
I not only know that my deck is sealed with 5200, I also have the boat review thatt Hal Roth wrote on the boat in 1980 in witch he actually describes "a line of 5200 as big around as my thumb". My boat is number 42. A hunter dealer told me that they switched to the rubber tape in 1981. In anycase, I am glad I have the 5200. Can't explain the tape on your boat. You can actually see the 5200 inside my boat. Another mystery from Hunter.

 

[rardiH36]

Re Blaise's observation about 5200 : -

Is it possible that both 5200 and butyl tape were used? Maybe 5200 for the actual hull to deck joint. But the butyl tape in addition on top of the deck but under the toe rail for the purpose of further preventing leaks entering around the bolts?

I'm postulating because on my 1980 36' Hunter (Hull #36 ending in M80G), tightening the toe rail bolts definitely caused black and still pliable caulk to squeeze out along the edge of the toe rail onto the deck. In the attached picture you can see a bit of the black "ooze" at the interface of the toe rail and the deck in the upper right corner. This would explain why tightening the toe rail bolts seems to help a lot reducing leaks. The butyl is again forced into any gaps around the bolts. (And why when tightening them, its a good to prevent the bolts from rotating. Instead find a means to keep them locked in place and tighten only from underneath by cinching up the nuts.)

However from inside the boat, in the spots where I can see the inside edge of the hull to deck joint, I see no evidence of any caulk being squeezed when I tightened.

So probably no butyl/rubber tape in there as Blaise informed.

 

[H30Gary]

Just one more thought on leaks. On my 30 there are drains on the deck connected to discharge fittings on the side of the hull (above the water line) with tubing. In my case the thru hull fitting had worked loose and the cheap plastic connecting tubing was cracked. This let a lot of water into the quarterberth area every time it rained, soaking the fabric along the hull. At first I suspected the toe rail was leaking, but when I tightened the thru hull and replaced the tubing with some decent stuff the boat is now bone dry.