Leaking thru Keel Bolts

[n4hhm]

OK Old Timers, Here's the situation. H 27 with very little keel leak resting in slip.
More pronounced leaking under way w/heeling. Not enough to reach the sole as the pump keeps the level in the bilge. Real annoying as I want a dry bilge.

Boatyard foreman suggested removing each keel nut/washers (one at a time of course) and pack with teflon packing or silicone. Failing this fix would need to haul and re-bed the keel.

Your opinions please.

Henry in lovely Panama City, FL

 

[rufus1138]

very odd, ive beat on my h27 quite hard and mine is the tall rig with the 4.5ft keel, if a h27 was going to have keel problems i would think mine would, what draft is yours, i would second the idea about resealing the nuts but there is definitely a problem with the keel bedding. if it is shoal draft i would try to find out if it was assembled/modified by the dealership that used to sell the cherubini hunters out of bayou chico, if so my neighbor is probably the one that did the boat and can help.

 

[n4hhm]

Thanks Rufus, We just purchased the 1981 H27 which has been kept in marvelous condition by previous owner. I do not know the history or owner but home port was Carrabelle.

 

[rufus1138]

well if you need any help let me know, ive been through everything you could think of with an h27, and my next door neighbor is the son of the dealership owner that sold most of florida's cherubini hunters in the late 70's and 80's, we can fix anything on that boat i promise, he's also a master rigger so if you want the rig tuned he knows all the little tricks and ive put in some time doing irresponsible things with mine so i can tell you where you need what

 

[FastOlson]

Even if you "stop" the leak by gasketing the nuts and washers on the inside, all that does is hide the real damage. And "real damage" can lead to broken rods/bolts. Not to put too fine a point on it, but keeping the keel attached is Really Important.


What happens when water penetrates up around the threads on the ss threaded rods (aka "keep bolts") is that the threaded portion will corrode. Longer this goes on, the weaker they get from loss of thickness.

Better by far to recognize that rebedding a keel is just one of those Preventative Maint. jobs that comes up every couple decades or so on all boats with external keels. (Internal ballast has its own long term maint. problems, and they can also be labor intensive.)

It's a straightforward job -- the yard (if it's experienced and well equipped) will have a system of special props or a steel upright "cage" to move info place around the keel. With the hull supported in the slings of the travelift, they will undo the nuts on all the bolts and lift the boat off the keel about a half a foot.

Hopefully (!) all they will find is water around the interface between the hull and top of keel casting and some surface rust on the threads.
They'll clean it all up, apply a Lot of sealant, and lower the hull back down on the rods. New ss washers and nuts, and torqued 'em all up. Clean up all that new sealant forced out on the outside.

Then you're good for another 20 years. This should run you under a couple of B.U.C.'s. If you need to have any "bolts"/rods replaced, that will up the labor bill considerably.

Given that I have personally seen a lot of poly filler used on a new '78 H-27 keel where the original casting had a Very uneven cast top, do not be surprised if you find something like that too.

I have done all this on our present boat, 'bout a decade ago. What with an excellent job of rebedding done, I do not plan to have to do it again.....

Regards,
Loren

 

[Leroy McMillan]

Hey gang, I am Rufus' friend. I grew up putting Hunters together as a kid. My father had the Hunter dealership. I am in Pensacola and am doing a total restoration on a 1974 Pearson 30. Removed bulkheads compression post and every screw in the boat. It is coming back together now.I will be freed up after new years if you want me to look at and fix your keel bed situation. Leroy.

 

[Leroy McMillan]

http://pearson30olvido.wordpress.com this is my present project.

 

[David in Sandusky]

Sure it's the keel boats?

We had similar symptoms. The leak occurred when we had a good sail, getting up over 5 kts. Turned out it was the cockpit drain hoses. Their exits in the stern are submerged at those speeds, and leaks in the fittings or hoses will end up in the bilge.

They are hard to get at, but it's a lot cheaper than dropping the keel, etc.

 

[Leroy McMillan]

We had similar symptoms. The leak occurred when we had a good sail, getting up over 5 kts. Turned out it was the cockpit drain hoses. Their exits in the stern are submerged at those speeds, and leaks in the fittings or hoses will end up in the bilge.

They are hard to get at, but it's a lot cheaper than dropping the keel, etc.

I have often criss crossed the cockpit drain hoses to keep water out of the cockpit while heeled over. My fear is that he has leaks due to groundings. Lets hope it is as simple as old hoses and fittings.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Better by far to recognize that rebedding a keel is just one of those Preventative Maint. jobs that comes up every couple decades or so on all boats with external keels. (Internal ballast has its own long term maint. problems, and they can also be labor intensive.)

Regards,
Loren

Loren,

What sort of "long term maintenance problems" do you have in mind for internally ballasted keels? (I have an E26-2.) Obviously, if one smacks a rock too hard it would require repair, but what is there to do in terms of "maintenance"--labor intensive or otherwise?

Thanks,
Alan

 

[FastOlson]

Loren,

What sort of "long term maintenance problems" do you have in mind for internally ballasted keels? (I have an E26-2.) Obviously, if one smacks a rock too hard it would require repair, but what is there to do in terms of "maintenance"--labor intensive or otherwise?

Thanks,
Alan

Hey Alan, You're on the other list today!
(Just kidding....)

I have seen loose internal lead in a Capital Yachts boat -- water got in thru a fracture and a piece of frp was cut out of the side of the keel cavity. Once the pile of lead balls and uncured resin ran out, a solid lead bar was inserted and the hole was covered with new layup and epoxy.

Then there's the more common problem of hitting a rock or something equally abrupt and unyielding -- cracks in the keel part of the hull will let water fill in around the ballast slug until it finally shows up in the bilge.
All fixable with drying out, grinding back, and applying new glass at a haulout.

I only tossed out the comment because there are a few 'net trolls that unequivocally champion one type on keel concept over the other. It's all just "choices and options"....


Best,
Loren

 

[Alan Gomes]

Hey Alan, You're on the other list today!
(Just kidding....)

I have seen loose internal lead in a Capital Yachts boat -- water got in thru a fracture and a piece of frp was cut out of the side of the keel cavity. Once the pile of lead balls and uncured resin ran out, a solid lead bar was inserted and the hole was covered with new layup and epoxy.

Then there's the more common problem of hitting a rock or something equally abrupt and unyielding -- cracks in the keel part of the hull will let water fill in around the ballast slug until it finally shows up in the bilge.
All fixable with drying out, grinding back, and applying new glass at a haulout.

I only tossed out the comment because there are a few 'net trolls that unequivocally champion one type on keel concept over the other. It's all just "choices and options"....


Best,
Loren

Ok, Loren...got it. I guess I was just focusing too literally on the word "maintenance" as opposed to repairing damage. I couldn't figure out what there would be to "maintain" on an encapsulated keel. With keel bolts, though, you would want to check the torque on them periodically and, as you say, re-bed them as/if needed. But assuming I don't smack into anything I should be good! Even then, depending on the degree of damage, it would seem that repairing a glass fracture in the keel would be simpler than dropping it completely and having to reattach. (I have no plans to test out this theory.)

Interesting observation about the Capital Yachts boat. I'm curious as to which model it was. I owned a Newport 27 two boats ago and it most definitely had a bolt-on keel. So I guess some of their models were encapsulated.

 

[FastOlson]

Ok, Loren...got it. I guess I was just focusing too literally on the word "maintenance" as opposed to repairing damage. I couldn't figure out what there would be to "maintain" on an encapsulated keel. With keel bolts, though, you would want to check the torque on them periodically and, as you say, re-bed them as/if needed. But assuming I don't smack into anything I should be good! Even then, depending on the degree of damage, it would seem that repairing a glass fracture in the keel would be simpler than dropping it completely and having to reattach. (I have no plans to test out this theory.)

Interesting observation about the Capital Yachts boat. I'm curious as to which model it was. I owned a Newport 27 two boats ago and it most definitely had a bolt-on keel. So I guess some of their models were encapsulated.

It was one of the larger 30-something Newports. Thing is, about internal ballast, any one of a boat's prior owners could have whacked something with the leading edge of the keel and cracked it. It could be some years later that water is noticed inside and the detective work starts.

External lead has some advantages if it's well engineered -- like our boat that we purchased with a baseball-size dent (!) in the front lower part of the lead fin, right at the bottom - later the yard filled it with epoxy filler and faired it in. That was in the later 90's, and there were no problems with the keel bolts.
A few years ago we grounded the boat hard in sand at about 6 kts and had to be dragged off by Vessel Assist. Hauled out for cautionary look-see a week later and the hull/keel joint was totally undisturbed.

IMHO, No matter what brand of boat, it pays to buy Quality in key areas like keel/ballast construction.

Loren