Last night, greatest experience

[SteveHughessails]

I decided to put my name in to “crew” on a racing boat. Last night was my first time in this environment. I was absolutely thrilled. The day started with lots of wind. It stayed quite strong, strong enough that if it was the weekend, we would not have considered going out with our vessel.

I was quite nervous as loaded myself onto the C&C 27 but just decided to roll with it. Of course I don’t know the rules yet but I did receive confirmation that my learning curve is going well. My terminology is quite strong. The wind was the strongest ever for me. It would gust then settle, then gust again. I asked if we had a gauge that showed our heel angle. He said,” a fun o meter”. LOL

We were at 30 degrees quite often. We did not reef. I experienced an unscheduled gybe. I have never pulled so hard on a line lol.

Question: I am concerned that I will now want to run my trailer sailer like that! Now that I have sailed in a heavy keel boat, I have to wonder, just how limited am I? Will my light swing keel Mac25 heel over and run like this or am I dreaming?

I was so impressed.
Thanks and don’t hold back.

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

Thanks for posting your experience. Yes, sailing on race boat can be a lot of fun! When you sail with experienced crew you can be amazed at what a well prepared boat can do.

i can't comment on how your Mac25 will perform but note that just about ANY boat can be safely sailed in 'spirited' conditions. I would no go out in 30 kts of breeze and try to beat up wind but sailing on a reach on 20 kts should be doable (and a lot of fun).

My last comment regards reefing. Sailing at 30 degrees of heel may feel fast and will definitely be exciting, it's also slow (for most boats). I know that on every boat I have owned, putting in a reef in anything close to 20 kts of wind was actually faster (and easier on the crew and boat) than sailing with full sails and the boat on her ear. I know many racing captains who refuse to reef who would sail faster if they did reef. Sometimes it's ego, other times it's poor reefing gear or a general fear of reefing.

Good luck,
Barry

 

[David in Sandusky]

Agree - racing is great fun. And you will learn how to tune sails, ballast, and the boat to maximize speed in many different conditions. My two years racing a Sunfish with the Key West Naval Sailing Assn. was the best possible lesson in trimming sails, and maintaining boat trim to go fast. I still use those skills cruising our h27 today.

But Barry is right. Every boat has an optimum heel for moving through the water depending on its hull and keel shapes. For the Sunfish, it was sail it flat! For our h27, it is 0 to 15 degrees of heel. There are three reasons for this:
1. The underwater shape of the boat increases its drag, slowing it down as it heels beyond the optimum.
2. Tilting the sail from the vertical reduces its effective area. This is because some of the sail's force is directed down toward the water instead of straight ahead.
3. Most boats experience weather helm in a gust. They want to turn into the wind. The helmsman holds course and keeps the wind in the sail (avoids luffing) by sharply turning the rudder to counter it. Deploying the rudder like this substantially increases its drag force against the forward motion of the boat through the water.

In the immediate moment. moving the traveler down wind in a gust reduces heel. This also keeps the wind from detaching from the downwind side of the sail, increasing forward drive. Then the traveler is returned to its previous position after the gust passes. Increasing ballast (crew on the rail, or in a trapeze) will also help to maintain optimum heel and increase speed in a gust.
If the gusts are too much to handle with the traveler, ballast, or mainsheet, or if higher winds persist, it's time to reef. As Barry said, a reefed boat sailing near optimum heel will sail significantly faster than a boat heeling at 30 degrees. Careful observation of boats going faster in a race will see them adopting these tactics on windy, gusty days. (If no one is adopting them, you have a real chance to win!)

 

[Foswick]

I raced for a bit. It just confirms that if you take any activity that is worth doing, it won't take long before someone ruins it by making a competition out of it. In most races, there is barely enough time to hang my hammock and brew a decent cup of tea.

But, with that caveat, I will second what Barry and David have said. All true.

In gusty conditions, it seems that skippers are more likely to accept some excessive heel because, by the time you reef to conditions, the wind may have already subsided. That's one reason we like to have rail meat.

I can add, though, that our first boat was a Venture 22 and we had some good times on that boat. And, we did sail in 30-35 kts, at times. It is just a matter of having the right amount of sail out for the conditions and having those sails balanced. One important advantage you have on your boat (over a larger/heavier one) is that it is easier to feel the rudder and the boat is quicker to respond to everything you do that is good or bad. But, definitely, she will go faster if you keep her feet on the floor.

 

[dLj]

I had the old Macgregor 26 with water ballast years ago. I have not sailed the Mac25 that you have. But I can tell you I sailed that 26 through some mighty feisty weather!

dj

 

[dlochner]

You will learn more in a couple of seasons of racing than you will just daysailing. A common mistake among many novice racers is heeling too much and trying to pinch up wind. Flat is fast, on your ear is a good way to end up at the back of the pack.

Once the boat starts to heel up, the lift generated by the keel decreases and the boat starts sliding sideways a lot, the more heel, the more it slides sideways. To compensate helmsmen try to point higher into the wind which is also slow, the net result is the boat is going in the wrong direction slowly, not a winning strategy.

In a breeze up wind the crew needs to be on the rail with their legs outside the lifelines and their bodies up against the life lines, this helps to keep the boat flat. If the boat is still heeling too much, i.e., more than about 15° then the main should have been reefed.

This is all made more difficult if the main sail is old and baggy.

Races are won at the start and on the windward leg. Winning boats are on the line at full speed when the starting gun sounds. This is one of the hardest skills to learn and the most terrifying for many skippers.

When I was crewing in a J24 fleet, the race was often over at the first windward mark and certainly by the second windward mark.

Good luck, enjoy, learn.

 

[Tally Ho]

I am not really a racer, but when my buddies are sailing in the same direction, it often becomes a race back to the marina.

On this day, I was racing my Hunter 280 against a Hunter 33. Winds were picking up, but I was single-handed and didn’t want to give up my lead!

I upgraded to my O’Day 322 and was out one day in heavy winds, single handed and enjoying a fast and raucous sail. I never noticed someone taking photos, but a year later, I ran into a guy at the marina who said ”hey, I have some photos to send you”. The heel wasn‘t quite as extreme, but fun just the same!


Nothing wrong with sailing in challenging conditions…sharpens your skills.


Greg

 

[smokey73]

Spirited sailing solo. Probably would be a little faster with a reef in but - it is a fun ride this way. Not sure it could be much faster as I was at 8+ knots which is hull speed.

 

[stickinthemud57]

I know the Mac 26S and Mac 25 are very different boats due to the keel setup, But I feel reasonably qualified to offer an opinion.

The C&C 27 has about 3 and a half times as much ballast at the Mac25, and winds of the velocity you were experiencing would be much more challenging. I race my 26S and reef when winds get upwards of 16MPH. If there were sustained winds above 20 mph on a race day, I would (and have) sat it out, as both I and my crew lack the experience to do so safely.

If you're keen, then go for it, but not until you and your crew have learned to handle high winds and rough seas first, then done enough racing that you are seasoned, confident, and well-steeped in the rules and strategies.

A good skipper can handle a boat in high winds and seas, but it's not something you master in just a year or two. I guess what I'm trying to say it takes much more than a casual interest.

 

[danstanford]

Keep it up, it is indeed a great adventure made better with a team of co-conspirators. You will learn every night if you want to the only warning I would have is you may find yourself wanting a racier boat.

 

[jssailem]

Ah, the awakening of a boat builder's dream client.
Going fast on a sailboat.
Once you ignite the spark, it is like a fire that burns inside. You begin to search for the things you see on fast boats.
All caution is ignored. There is only the pursuit of speed.

 

[FastOlson]

One way to look at racing vs day sailing is that when we race we put up enough sail area to have full speed thru the lulls and then have to flatten the main or traveler-down to survive the puffs. i.e. we want max speed all the time.
When out for a day sail, we generally arrange the sail plan/area "the other way 'round".
And it's true that heeling beyond whatever efficient angle might be for your particular boat will be slower. Sometimes lots slower.

Aside from racing, sailing in heavy air can just plain be a lot of fun in its own right. When we have been out with our 97% jib and main with one reef, we were going well with no excessive heel and lots of speed... in 24 KT of wind. And running in that wind was soooo easy at 10 to 12 kts.

A friend of mine posted up a good video about sailing his boat in 25 to 30 True, and marveling at what a different boat it becomes compared to everyday sailing in lighter air.
Even a 10K displacement boat starts to sail more like a big dinghy in heavy air providing that you expose the Correct / Reduced amount of sail area. Helm stays light, and the lee rail even stays dry.

 

[SteveHughessails]

Thank you so much for the incredible feedback guys, wows.

It's funny, after one race I found a Santana 525 (Great deal but not yet....) LOL

One of the highlights, I looked left, then right, then left again and the head sail was out. I was shocked. First time seeing a furler in action LOL. We were discussing reefing, we were pointed quite high but then the wind would subside and we were back to 4 knots. Wing on wing DDW, the conditions were too unstable to fly a spinnaker but some did. So much fun. My cheeks are still hurting from the full time smiles.

I can tell, my confidence is going to go up quite quickly. I have been asked to join them again next week.

 

[capta]

Hello,

Thanks for posting your experience. Yes, sailing on race boat can be a lot of fun! When you sail with experienced crew you can be amazed at what a well prepared boat can do.

i can't comment on how your Mac25 will perform but note that just about ANY boat can be safely sailed in 'spirited' conditions. I would no go out in 30 kts of breeze and try to beat up wind but sailing on a reach on 20 kts should be doable (and a lot of fun).

My last comment regards reefing. Sailing at 30 degrees of heel may feel fast and will definitely be exciting, it's also slow (for most boats). I know that on every boat I have owned, putting in a reef in anything close to 20 kts of wind was actually faster (and easier on the crew and boat) than sailing with full sails and the boat on her ear. I know many racing captains who refuse to reef who would sail faster if they did reef. Sometimes it's ego, other times it's poor reefing gear or a general fear of reefing.

Good luck,
Barry

I raced for 7 seasons on Frisco Bay, and we didn't even have reef points! Neither did any of the other serious racing boats!
Unlike when day sailing or cruising, most sailboat racing courses are triangular, so even if beating under full sail is a bit less efficient, running or reaching after rounding the Windward mark, with a reefed main, would be a great deal slower. So racers compromise here and there to reap rewards on a different tack.

 

[PaulK]

Work up gradually in your Mac to see what she (and you) can handle. We went out one beautiful sunny day to see how our J/36 would do in 40 knots of breeze. That was not counting the puffs. Laguardia Airport in NYC was closed because of the wind. We motored out and only hoisted a reefed mainsail, then beat out into the five foot waves with spray flying everywhere. Crew were sitting astride the windward winches to keep from being bounced around. About a half mile out we turned to head downwind (a lee shore,unfortunately). In the space of about four seconds we were doing better than 12 1/2 knots, with the bow wave spraying aft past the transom. A couple of rounds of this was enough and we headed in - tired, but like you, exhilarated.

 

[jssailem]

Sailing in heavy wind involves two elements: Wind and Water. You can reduce the effect of the water by sailing in the lee of a land mass. If you give the wind a bay full of water to blow over, you'll have to deal with both wind and fetch-created wind waves. There is one more fun twist the sea will throw into the mix: Tidal currents. When wind and waves blow/flow against a tidal current or sea current (i.e., the Gulf Stream), you get the Trifecta of conditions.

Know your weather conditions before you head out for some heavy weather sailing. Have a plan in case things get dicey.
Let others know your plan.

Practice will inspire confidence in your boat handling. It is often said that most boats can deal with more than the skipper and crew.

 

[David in Sandusky]

If you reef to the wind conditions, your Mac 25 should do fine.

 

[Urban Hermit]

When I had the Bayfield 29 and the Freedom 33 cat-ketch (not simultaneously, thank gawd) I most enjoyed sailing in marginal conditions and seemed reasonably competent at it. That said I wasn't a technical sailor and never raced. But -- I was under the impression that having the traveler upwind put more bag and power in the mainsail and a downwind traveler flattened the sail, reduced power, and worked better in heavy air. Right or wrong?

P.S. Old sailing wisdom: "The time to reef is when you first think of it."

 

[Foswick]

I was under the impression that having the traveler upwind put more bag and power in the mainsail and a downwind traveler flattened the sail, reduced power, and worked better in heavy air. Right or wrong?

You're kind of on the right track in terms of the effect you're describing, but some of the "why" is a little bit off. Granted, this can get confusing because traveler and mainsheet tension are so interrelated.

When you move the traveler up, you're moving the boom closer to centerline. In light air, if you do this without cranking on the sheet, that gives you a better angle of attack with a more open leech (more twist), which usually adds power — but not because the sail has more "bag". The draft (depth) of the sail is mostly controlled by outhaul, Cunningham, vang, and mast bend, not traveler position.

When you drop the traveler down in heavier air, you can sheet harder without overloading the helm. That increased sheet tension flattens the sail and tightens the leech, reducing power. Again, this is mostly about twist and leech tension, not draft depth.

So you're right that moving the traveler up often gives more drive and moving it down can help de-power - it’s just that the mechanics behind it have more to do with angle and twist than with changing the sail’s shape in terms of bagginess.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Races are won at the start and on the windward leg. Winning boats are on the line at full speed when the starting gun sounds. This is one of the hardest skills to learn and the most terrifying for many skippers.

I have a funny story about the last race I entered just this past September. For crew, we had @Ward H and a ski-racing buddy of mine who is in his 80's now. He's very spry for his age and he told me once that he used to sail. I found out that day that he had been in a dinghy race once on Lake Hopatcong about 40 years ago and that was his only experience sailing. You have to know Roy to understand just how funny that bit of information came out!

The race format was our club against a rival club, with 5 boats representing each club so 10 boats total. This was my first year in our club and all of our own races had been cancelled that year for various reasons, so many of the racing people really didn't know me or my boat very well (and vice versa). We had a team meeting before setting out and the main topic of discussion was about the start, with the most experienced racer going into significant detail about not allowing a windward boat to barge the line. I think the other team's best racer was notorious for getting away with that tactic. In the end, I said "just don't run off one of our own teammates". Everybody had a good laugh over that because who would ever do that?

Well, we were a little late getting to the start line because Roy was late getting to the marina. It was downwind to the start and apparently windier than expected. But it was my fault for being disorganized when we arrived, and once we turned upwind it was immediately apparent that we needed to reef. I only have one reef point, but it was windy enough that a second reef wouldn't be out of the question.

But, out of pure luck, we were steaming toward the line and approaching very close to the committee boat with near-perfect timing! The only thing wrong was there was a faster boat behind us and to leeward and it was obvious they were pointing right at us. Ward told me I had to point up and I responded that it was impossible (besides, I didn't believe that there could be a boat pointing higher than us). I was also focused on the other team's fastest boat bearing down on us from the windward side, obviously attempting to barge. At that point Ward said with a good bit more urgency, "Scott, we're to windward and you have to move". I looked to leeward and saw exactly what Ward was telling me! There was no possibility of ducking and if I didn't make a circle almost immediately I would either draw a protest or hit the committee boat. So I did the circle before crossing the line (or hitting the committee boat), which caused the boat to windward of me to do a complete circle as well. We watched our teammate go steaming by to leeward with a perfect start, not knowing that he ran his own teammate off the course! They went on to win the race, while I trailed most of the fleet for the entire race. But, we did also ruin the other team's start so that was a small consolation.

As it turned out, our teammate didn't recognize my boat, otherwise he would have let me thru. He was focused on the other team's boat just as I was and had no intention of letting him thru. He (our teammate) won the race handily anyway and it would not have ruined his start in the least bit if he had just moved over enough to let me in. He apologized later and everybody had a good laugh, remembering our team meeting discussion. I ended up finishing behind 7 boats of the 10, but on corrected time, they called us 4th! I think there was a mistake because we were way behind the boats finishing in front of us. We gave up the cup to the other team this year, so in the end, it didn't really matter. Both clubs are a pretty informal racing bunch in any case and nobody really cares that much about the results. We all get along just fine no matter the circumstances of the racing. In fact, one of our best racers is a member of both clubs because he likes to race in each series, and we gave him up to the other team just to even out the boats.