I need some advice. I need to belay the internal jib halyard on my CDI roller furling unit. The attachment point on the unit is a simple shackle. I always have a problem with tying a bowline to this shackle while maintaining appropriate tension on the halyard. I always lose tension on the halyard while tying it off to the shackle, causing the jib to move lower in the luff than I want. Even if I have someone there to help me, it is still a laborious affair. I can't believe there isn't an easier way to do this. I have looked in the marine catalogs for a cleat that could attach to the shackle and come up empty. Any advice?
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Mike can you clearify your problem? It sounds like you can't get enough hoist on your jib halyard because the knot is too big? I'm not familiar with the CDI furler. What's the size of your boat?
Can you?
Remove the shackle, tie the bowline, & re-attach the shackle? Or tie to a shackle that you can then attach to the shackle you already have? You'll probably need another person to take the halyard strain while you attach the shackle.
Remove the shackle, tie the bowline, & re-attach the shackle? Or tie to a shackle that you can then attach to the shackle you already have? You'll probably need another person to take the halyard strain while you attach the shackle.
Snap shackle
Mike, It is difficult to understand the situation you describe, but if I think I interpreted it correctly, I suggest using a snap shackle spliced into the halyard.
Mike, It is difficult to understand the situation you describe, but if I think I interpreted it correctly, I suggest using a snap shackle spliced into the halyard.
I guess I wasn't clear enough....
The CDI furler has an internal halyard in the foil. You pull down, the sail goes up. When the jib has been raised to the proper height, you must secure the end of the halyard. This end must be secured to the furler unit; because it is integral to the foil, it spins along with it, and so must be attached to the furler's drum so it too can turn without wrapping itself around the foil or jib. The problem is that the attachment point provided on the furler is nothing more than a shackle. I find it very difficult to maintain tension on the halyard while I tie it to the shackle. You need to maintain the tension because if it relaxes, the jib is allowed to move back down the foil, and is no longer in a proper position. I have tried to compensate for this by raising the sail higher than it should be and then letting the lost tension during the attachment process allow it to fall back to where it should be. However, this is a far from perfect solution. A snap shackle as suggested would make it so I wouldn't have to tie a knot, but would still require me to place the snap on the halyard in the perfect place in order to have the jib at the right height. What I am really looking for is a way to either knot or fasten the halyard to the furler, and then somehow be able to tighten the line up and have it stay that way. I keep thinking back those line tensioners we used to use on tents. Or maybe a cleat that can attach to the shackle. Perhaps a specialty knot that allows for tensioning after being tied off. Thanks.
The CDI furler has an internal halyard in the foil. You pull down, the sail goes up. When the jib has been raised to the proper height, you must secure the end of the halyard. This end must be secured to the furler unit; because it is integral to the foil, it spins along with it, and so must be attached to the furler's drum so it too can turn without wrapping itself around the foil or jib. The problem is that the attachment point provided on the furler is nothing more than a shackle. I find it very difficult to maintain tension on the halyard while I tie it to the shackle. You need to maintain the tension because if it relaxes, the jib is allowed to move back down the foil, and is no longer in a proper position. I have tried to compensate for this by raising the sail higher than it should be and then letting the lost tension during the attachment process allow it to fall back to where it should be. However, this is a far from perfect solution. A snap shackle as suggested would make it so I wouldn't have to tie a knot, but would still require me to place the snap on the halyard in the perfect place in order to have the jib at the right height. What I am really looking for is a way to either knot or fasten the halyard to the furler, and then somehow be able to tighten the line up and have it stay that way. I keep thinking back those line tensioners we used to use on tents. Or maybe a cleat that can attach to the shackle. Perhaps a specialty knot that allows for tensioning after being tied off. Thanks.
Mike I have a similar set up
with an internal wire halyard in the foil that ends with a "car" (or whatever you call the thing that slides up and down in the foil at the end of the halyard) with a short rope tied on to an eye in the "car". Try looking for a notch in the halyard slot in the foil where the "car" can be locked in. So when the sail is raised it is basically hanging in the foil. So to get luff tention the tack of my sail has a small double block downhaul, with the bottom connected to the furler drum and about a 3-4 inch range of travel. I get the right amount of tension in the luff by using the downhaul. Is this helpful, or am I just telling you what I know, rather than answering your question?. Scott
with an internal wire halyard in the foil that ends with a "car" (or whatever you call the thing that slides up and down in the foil at the end of the halyard) with a short rope tied on to an eye in the "car". Try looking for a notch in the halyard slot in the foil where the "car" can be locked in. So when the sail is raised it is basically hanging in the foil. So to get luff tention the tack of my sail has a small double block downhaul, with the bottom connected to the furler drum and about a 3-4 inch range of travel. I get the right amount of tension in the luff by using the downhaul. Is this helpful, or am I just telling you what I know, rather than answering your question?. Scott
Two turns and two half hitches?
You might want to try using two turns and two half hitches. Loopo the hlyard through the shackle then gothrough again. Then secure the tail to the halyard with two halh hitches. not the best know in the world but I presume you are not crossing oceans.
You might want to try using two turns and two half hitches. Loopo the hlyard through the shackle then gothrough again. Then secure the tail to the halyard with two halh hitches. not the best know in the world but I presume you are not crossing oceans.
This worked for me...
as I have a CDI #2 furler. I raised my genoa and then tied off first to the shackle and then to the tack. This enabled me to pull the sail down as if it was a cunningham, plus it gave me more room work. Give it a try, worked for me. Good luck. Bob
as I have a CDI #2 furler. I raised my genoa and then tied off first to the shackle and then to the tack. This enabled me to pull the sail down as if it was a cunningham, plus it gave me more room work. Give it a try, worked for me. Good luck. Bob
Shroud adjusters...
...check the marine catalogues, especially the racing oriented ones like www.apsltd.com. (Annapolis Performanc Sailing) Some have levers, some have thumbscrews, some are just a set of holes for pins. On the other hand, I think Bob's solution will work fine if you just need a knot. Attach the pennant to the drum first....then.... cinch down the genoa with a couple of half hitches.
...check the marine catalogues, especially the racing oriented ones like www.apsltd.com. (Annapolis Performanc Sailing) Some have levers, some have thumbscrews, some are just a set of holes for pins. On the other hand, I think Bob's solution will work fine if you just need a knot. Attach the pennant to the drum first....then.... cinch down the genoa with a couple of half hitches.
Truckers Hitch
Hi, use a truckers hitch to tighten your the halyard. Take the line through the shackle, go up a foot, lay the rope across the part going down to the shackle, pull a loop up across the tail, put a loop in the part going down to the shackle, twist the loop twice, put the loop you brought up through the double twist loop, cinch down. You now have a purchase, tighten down, and tie off. Hope you followed this, hard to explain in words. Their are other variations of this knot, try a search on the internet. O_salt. Hope you followed this, hard to explain in words. Their are other variations of this knot, try a search on the internet. O_salt.
Hi, use a truckers hitch to tighten your the halyard. Take the line through the shackle, go up a foot, lay the rope across the part going down to the shackle, pull a loop up across the tail, put a loop in the part going down to the shackle, twist the loop twice, put the loop you brought up through the double twist loop, cinch down. You now have a purchase, tighten down, and tie off. Hope you followed this, hard to explain in words. Their are other variations of this knot, try a search on the internet. O_salt. Hope you followed this, hard to explain in words. Their are other variations of this knot, try a search on the internet. O_salt.
Truckers' Hitch
http://www.magnacraypots.co.nz/trucker.htm Knots How-to - Trucker's Hitch (Lorry Knot)
http://www.magnacraypots.co.nz/trucker.htm Knots How-to - Trucker's Hitch (Lorry Knot)
Do you have a manual for the unit?
C D I is very helpfull if you need help, if you do not have a manual for your unit, contact them for the proper way to secure the down haul. There seems to be something missing in your setup.
C D I is very helpfull if you need help, if you do not have a manual for your unit, contact them for the proper way to secure the down haul. There seems to be something missing in your setup.
CDI FF2 furler modifications
I have a C-22 with a CDI FF2 furler and I am well aware of the problems with setting up luff tension. I made several modifications to my CDI unit for better tensioning of the luff. First, for the tack, I use a short piece if 1/8-inch wire with two eyes at each end swaged with thimbles. The piece is about five and one half inches long from inside eye to inside eye as I recall. One eye is attached to the small shackle on the drum (I replaced the original stamped shackle with a Wichard 5/32 inch diameter d shackle) and the other to a small bow shackle (I think a Wichard 5/32 inch) on the jib tack. This will not stretch. I do not think it is good to try to tighten the luff using the several loops of small nylon line that CDI provides. Then at the bottom of the front of the plastic extrusion about one to two inches from where the drum begins, I ground out a small opening, similar to the opening where you enter the jib luff tape but smaller and more round. I used a small cylindrical grinding stone about 3/8 to ½ inch diameter in a drill to do this. This opening allows the halyard with its core to exit from the extrusion, rather than just the cover as originally designed. This means you can tie the halyard very close to the head of the jib and you will not have to make any further adjustments as the halyard can now fully exit from the extrusion rather than just stopping with only the cover exiting. Then I replaced the stamped d shackle to which you are trying to tie a knot with a bow shape Wichard 5/32 inch shackle with small Harken block. The halyard with cover and core now comes down out of the extrusion and then down and around through the block. To secure the halyard I use a small stainless steel ¼ inch wire clamp that is positioned between the two “sides” of the halyard, that is the “side” coming down to the block and the “side” coming up from the block. I use a ¼ inch spinner (this looks like a screw driver but has a quarter inch socket end for quarter inch sockets) with the appropriate socket to slowly cinch up the wire clamp as I pull up on the halyard from the block while holding the drum down with a foot. The wire clamp needs to be positioned a bit during the process, that is moved away from the block or the top edge of the drum as one pulls the halyard upward from the block. When I cannot pull anymore on the halyard I hold it tight with one hand and tighten up the wire clamp with the other. Then I put on nylon insert locking nuts on top of the nuts holding the clamp together to firmly secure the clamp. The excess halyard is then wrapped around the drum winding underneath the two “sides” on the halyard. Some additional notes. First, if you perform this alteration, you may find the halyard as it exits from the bottom of the extrusion, to be far longer than required. However, it is not just a process of cutting the halyard. You must also, like the original halyard, extract several inches of core and leave just cover at this end of the halyard. This is the only fashion in which you can then attach a “messenger” line to this end of the halyard which will then slide through the groove on the front of the extrusion carrying the “messenger” line up with it when you drop the jib for the winter. I replaced the halyard supplied by CDI with a technora-spectra blend ¼ inch line (I think it was either Sampson or New England Ropes) with an eye splice and snap shackle for the jib head. At the other end of the halyard, I extracted about six inches of core and sewed and whipped the cover and core together for about an inch where the cover and core still met. Then the cover only end was “spliced” through itself twice followed by whipping at the very end to keep this splice from pulling itself apart. In this way, I have a ready loop to which a “messenger” line is quickly attached. No knots to fall apart while dropping the jib. Second, the particular stainless steel wire clamp that I obtained is metric. It has 10-mm nuts. Fortunately, I am able to obtain 10-mm nylon insert lock nuts. I believe this should be possible for you at West Marine as it is for me. Nevertheless, verify the nut size when you purchase the wire clamp. Moreover, do not forget to get a ¼ inch 10-mm socket for your spinner. Third, in place of the 1/8-inch wire with two eyes with thimbles at about five and one half inches from inside eye to inside eye positioned with shackles between the drum and the jib tack, you might be able to use two or three long d shackles or some combination of shackles. There are no turnbuckles short enough. Flat stainless steel vangs that are short enough do not have sufficient sized holes to accept shackles. So its either the wire set up or shackles. Fourth, I do not think it is advisable to place a cleat onto the “vertical” side of the drum for securing the halyard in place of the wire clamp. I do not think there is sufficient room inside the drum next to the turnbuckle for the nuts for thru bolting the cleat to the drum. I do not think that self-tapping screws are treaded through enough plastic to generate a good bond, especially when this drum will be turning as one furls and unfurls the jib. One of those small nylon or plastic cleats with a full bottom and a hole that would allow it to be affixed with a large hose clamp might work, but I think only with the block I mentioned as the taper of the drum as it goes upward decreases somewhat meaning that if you attached the halyard directly to it from the extrusion, the upward pull may pull the whole cleat and clamp upward as well, as opposed to the downward pull resulting from the line passing through the block. Nevertheless, I am concerned the hose clamp may crack the drum.
I have a C-22 with a CDI FF2 furler and I am well aware of the problems with setting up luff tension. I made several modifications to my CDI unit for better tensioning of the luff. First, for the tack, I use a short piece if 1/8-inch wire with two eyes at each end swaged with thimbles. The piece is about five and one half inches long from inside eye to inside eye as I recall. One eye is attached to the small shackle on the drum (I replaced the original stamped shackle with a Wichard 5/32 inch diameter d shackle) and the other to a small bow shackle (I think a Wichard 5/32 inch) on the jib tack. This will not stretch. I do not think it is good to try to tighten the luff using the several loops of small nylon line that CDI provides. Then at the bottom of the front of the plastic extrusion about one to two inches from where the drum begins, I ground out a small opening, similar to the opening where you enter the jib luff tape but smaller and more round. I used a small cylindrical grinding stone about 3/8 to ½ inch diameter in a drill to do this. This opening allows the halyard with its core to exit from the extrusion, rather than just the cover as originally designed. This means you can tie the halyard very close to the head of the jib and you will not have to make any further adjustments as the halyard can now fully exit from the extrusion rather than just stopping with only the cover exiting. Then I replaced the stamped d shackle to which you are trying to tie a knot with a bow shape Wichard 5/32 inch shackle with small Harken block. The halyard with cover and core now comes down out of the extrusion and then down and around through the block. To secure the halyard I use a small stainless steel ¼ inch wire clamp that is positioned between the two “sides” of the halyard, that is the “side” coming down to the block and the “side” coming up from the block. I use a ¼ inch spinner (this looks like a screw driver but has a quarter inch socket end for quarter inch sockets) with the appropriate socket to slowly cinch up the wire clamp as I pull up on the halyard from the block while holding the drum down with a foot. The wire clamp needs to be positioned a bit during the process, that is moved away from the block or the top edge of the drum as one pulls the halyard upward from the block. When I cannot pull anymore on the halyard I hold it tight with one hand and tighten up the wire clamp with the other. Then I put on nylon insert locking nuts on top of the nuts holding the clamp together to firmly secure the clamp. The excess halyard is then wrapped around the drum winding underneath the two “sides” on the halyard. Some additional notes. First, if you perform this alteration, you may find the halyard as it exits from the bottom of the extrusion, to be far longer than required. However, it is not just a process of cutting the halyard. You must also, like the original halyard, extract several inches of core and leave just cover at this end of the halyard. This is the only fashion in which you can then attach a “messenger” line to this end of the halyard which will then slide through the groove on the front of the extrusion carrying the “messenger” line up with it when you drop the jib for the winter. I replaced the halyard supplied by CDI with a technora-spectra blend ¼ inch line (I think it was either Sampson or New England Ropes) with an eye splice and snap shackle for the jib head. At the other end of the halyard, I extracted about six inches of core and sewed and whipped the cover and core together for about an inch where the cover and core still met. Then the cover only end was “spliced” through itself twice followed by whipping at the very end to keep this splice from pulling itself apart. In this way, I have a ready loop to which a “messenger” line is quickly attached. No knots to fall apart while dropping the jib. Second, the particular stainless steel wire clamp that I obtained is metric. It has 10-mm nuts. Fortunately, I am able to obtain 10-mm nylon insert lock nuts. I believe this should be possible for you at West Marine as it is for me. Nevertheless, verify the nut size when you purchase the wire clamp. Moreover, do not forget to get a ¼ inch 10-mm socket for your spinner. Third, in place of the 1/8-inch wire with two eyes with thimbles at about five and one half inches from inside eye to inside eye positioned with shackles between the drum and the jib tack, you might be able to use two or three long d shackles or some combination of shackles. There are no turnbuckles short enough. Flat stainless steel vangs that are short enough do not have sufficient sized holes to accept shackles. So its either the wire set up or shackles. Fourth, I do not think it is advisable to place a cleat onto the “vertical” side of the drum for securing the halyard in place of the wire clamp. I do not think there is sufficient room inside the drum next to the turnbuckle for the nuts for thru bolting the cleat to the drum. I do not think that self-tapping screws are treaded through enough plastic to generate a good bond, especially when this drum will be turning as one furls and unfurls the jib. One of those small nylon or plastic cleats with a full bottom and a hole that would allow it to be affixed with a large hose clamp might work, but I think only with the block I mentioned as the taper of the drum as it goes upward decreases somewhat meaning that if you attached the halyard directly to it from the extrusion, the upward pull may pull the whole cleat and clamp upward as well, as opposed to the downward pull resulting from the line passing through the block. Nevertheless, I am concerned the hose clamp may crack the drum.
Wow Bayard!
That's quite a retrofit project! I don't think I'm that ambitious or handy. The trucker's hitch knot was something I considered, but I don't know if there's enough space. I think I'll give it a try though. I agree with you that the furler drum probably wouldn't take mounting a cleat on the side. I might try clamping a stanchion or railing cleat to the halyard shackle. I could then run the end of the halyard through the middle of the cleat, make it taut, and then belay it to the cleat. Since I have only seen such cleats made of nylon, I have concerns, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I'm also going to give CDI a call to see what they say. Thanks for your detailed solution. BTW, I think I will do what you did for the tack. I don't like the CDI recommendation either.
That's quite a retrofit project! I don't think I'm that ambitious or handy. The trucker's hitch knot was something I considered, but I don't know if there's enough space. I think I'll give it a try though. I agree with you that the furler drum probably wouldn't take mounting a cleat on the side. I might try clamping a stanchion or railing cleat to the halyard shackle. I could then run the end of the halyard through the middle of the cleat, make it taut, and then belay it to the cleat. Since I have only seen such cleats made of nylon, I have concerns, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I'm also going to give CDI a call to see what they say. Thanks for your detailed solution. BTW, I think I will do what you did for the tack. I don't like the CDI recommendation either.
Bayard attach a picture
I have the same unit and I am planning to do something close to what you detail here over the winter. Would it be possible to see a picture or have you posted any in the photo forum?
I have the same unit and I am planning to do something close to what you detail here over the winter. Would it be possible to see a picture or have you posted any in the photo forum?
Maybe a picture in the future
Well I have a sailing freind who has one of them there new fangled digital cameras. Pending his willingness to go down to my boat in the yard in the cold weather, dubious but his boat is nearby as well, and pending our success at getting a picture onto this web, dubious but we are known to at least attempt to read instructions, then perhaps a picture will be forthcoming. However, as so many things broke on his boat this year that we call it team New Zealand, I cannot put much immediate faith into the overall success of this proposed venture. But then again, we have nothing else to do all winter.
Well I have a sailing freind who has one of them there new fangled digital cameras. Pending his willingness to go down to my boat in the yard in the cold weather, dubious but his boat is nearby as well, and pending our success at getting a picture onto this web, dubious but we are known to at least attempt to read instructions, then perhaps a picture will be forthcoming. However, as so many things broke on his boat this year that we call it team New Zealand, I cannot put much immediate faith into the overall success of this proposed venture. But then again, we have nothing else to do all winter.
Info from CDI
Well, since I started this whole mess, I decided to call CDI and see what they had to say. The man who answered the phone offered to answer my questions. When I explained the problem, he got a little defensive and said I was the only "complaint" they had ever received on the issue. Turns out that I was speaking with the designer of the unit! Anyway, he turned out to be a great guy and he tells me that he originally designed the unit with a cleat on the side to affix the halyard, but the marketing people convinced him that didn't look cool, so they put all those pins and shackles on. Joe (the designer) has never liked the shackles. The drum is actually still made with the cleat's screw hole placements molded in, however, they are not used. Joe just happened to have a spare of the cleat they used to use, and is sending it to me. He also told me that the easiest thing to do is to tighten the halyard to the proper height, hold it with your finger at the shackle, and tie it off with two half hitches. I will try both and let you all know how it comes out.
Well, since I started this whole mess, I decided to call CDI and see what they had to say. The man who answered the phone offered to answer my questions. When I explained the problem, he got a little defensive and said I was the only "complaint" they had ever received on the issue. Turns out that I was speaking with the designer of the unit! Anyway, he turned out to be a great guy and he tells me that he originally designed the unit with a cleat on the side to affix the halyard, but the marketing people convinced him that didn't look cool, so they put all those pins and shackles on. Joe (the designer) has never liked the shackles. The drum is actually still made with the cleat's screw hole placements molded in, however, they are not used. Joe just happened to have a spare of the cleat they used to use, and is sending it to me. He also told me that the easiest thing to do is to tighten the halyard to the proper height, hold it with your finger at the shackle, and tie it off with two half hitches. I will try both and let you all know how it comes out.
Mike writes, "What I am really looking for is a way to either knot or fasten the halyard to the furler, and then somehow be able to tighten the line up and have it stay that way. I keep thinking back those line tensioners we used to use on tents. Or maybe a cleat that can attach to the shackle. Perhaps a specialty knot that allows for tensioning after being tied off." Mike: I believe that what you are looking for is a knot called the camel hitch. It is reputed to have been developed by bedouins whose problem of the day was finding a way to tether their slobbering beasts. They needed a knot that would produce an "eye" that was easily adjustable, but that would not slip under tension even though well lubricated with camel drool. I've found it to be an ideal sailor's knot that has the properties of a bowline with the additional benefit of being adjustable. It works somewhat like the tent rope tensioner you mentioned but is far more secure. I couldn't find an example of a camel hitch on the web so I grabbed a length of line and my digital camera. If you (or anyone else) would like a set of five pictures showing how the camel hitch is tied, send your e-mail address to me at thefantasea@aol.com and I'll send you a set. Augie Byllott '78 C30 Fantasea
I saw a picture of that cleat
There is a picture of that cleat on a CDI unit pictured in The Sail Warehouse 2002 Catalog. Until now I have not found any other reference to it nor saw it on any other CDI units. I surmised wrongfully that it was considered a poor design or unique to a certain CDI unit. I think now that picture must have been one of the prototypes shown to the public before the marketing department took in feed back and consequently removed the cleat. Unfortunately, appearance can have a lot to do with sales, which is the name of the game. A satisfactory feature sadly eradicated due to its inappropriate or unusual nature and a lousy feature made in its place. Nevertheless, I still suggest my idea about cutting an opening on the front of the extrusion to let out both the cover and the core and using wire or shackles on the jib tack. By having both the cover and core of the halyard exit the extrusion, you have a much fuller and less stretchy line to secure to whatever means you ultimately employ. Further, as this line will bake in the sun, if you have just the cover coming out of the extrusion, when that cover gradually breaks down, you do not have any core for backup. This can mean the halyard will ride up into the slot on the front of the extrusion while the jib comes tumbling down. Then you will have to remove the whole unit to install a new halyard. I may yet still place a cleat onto my CDI drum as I now see that it was part of the original design. However, I would like to have it thru bolted, which I still do not think is possible, but a reexamination is evident.
There is a picture of that cleat on a CDI unit pictured in The Sail Warehouse 2002 Catalog. Until now I have not found any other reference to it nor saw it on any other CDI units. I surmised wrongfully that it was considered a poor design or unique to a certain CDI unit. I think now that picture must have been one of the prototypes shown to the public before the marketing department took in feed back and consequently removed the cleat. Unfortunately, appearance can have a lot to do with sales, which is the name of the game. A satisfactory feature sadly eradicated due to its inappropriate or unusual nature and a lousy feature made in its place. Nevertheless, I still suggest my idea about cutting an opening on the front of the extrusion to let out both the cover and the core and using wire or shackles on the jib tack. By having both the cover and core of the halyard exit the extrusion, you have a much fuller and less stretchy line to secure to whatever means you ultimately employ. Further, as this line will bake in the sun, if you have just the cover coming out of the extrusion, when that cover gradually breaks down, you do not have any core for backup. This can mean the halyard will ride up into the slot on the front of the extrusion while the jib comes tumbling down. Then you will have to remove the whole unit to install a new halyard. I may yet still place a cleat onto my CDI drum as I now see that it was part of the original design. However, I would like to have it thru bolted, which I still do not think is possible, but a reexamination is evident.
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