Being new to this wonderful activity I've acquired and read lots of books on it. In the book most recently read the author recommended raising the keel if you're going to be tied up at a dock or mooring for a few days, or, in my case, during the week when I'm 2 1/2 hours from my boat. His point being that the keel wasn't rocking back and forth on the pin thus reducing wear. What do you guys and gals do? Raise the keel and tighten the lock bolt if you're going to be away for a few or several days or leave the keel down? I'm just trying to do the best and make my boat last at least as long as me!
Keel position at dock or mooring
- Thread starter sharps4590
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Sharps4590,
I leave my keel down at a dock or on a mooring that is deep enough. With an extra turn or two to let the cable go slack so it does not vibrate while sailing, the keel is firmly down and quiet (doesn't move in the trunk). Bilbo's comment about reducing the movement of the mast and boat serves to reduce wear on everything that swings and moves including rudder hardware. I am sometimes reminded I have left the keel down when I get to the ramp and discover I come up short trying to get the hull over the bunks on the trailer.
The only time I remember consciously raising it when leaving it in the water was when I rented a mooring for a week at Mansett Harbor, ME. The region there has a 12 foot tide range and I was not certain how much water would be under the hull at low tide.
Derek
I leave my keel down at a dock or on a mooring that is deep enough. With an extra turn or two to let the cable go slack so it does not vibrate while sailing, the keel is firmly down and quiet (doesn't move in the trunk). Bilbo's comment about reducing the movement of the mast and boat serves to reduce wear on everything that swings and moves including rudder hardware. I am sometimes reminded I have left the keel down when I get to the ramp and discover I come up short trying to get the hull over the bunks on the trailer.
The only time I remember consciously raising it when leaving it in the water was when I rented a mooring for a week at Mansett Harbor, ME. The region there has a 12 foot tide range and I was not certain how much water would be under the hull at low tide.
Derek
Down, and only up for trailering
The author of your book is 100% wrong or is talking about another mfg. boat, or you’re reading it wrong.
With the keel up, as the other fellows have stated, the keel will rock easier hanging on the keel bolt and cable thus adding strain on each of them. With keel down the top part of the keel or the area in front of the keel bolt is wedged into the high part of the keel trunk, the keel bolt is then locked down to eliminate any play or side movement that will then work on the keel bolt. You definitely do not want to lock down the keel bolt with the keel in the up position. Look at the attached mfg’s. drawing of the keel and trunk in the up position and the keel locking bolt.
Another thing you’ll hear or read is to raise the keel to have less surface area when sailing down wind. Again look at the drawing, with the keel in the up position the area in front of the keel bolt is exposed to the water, in the down position this up front area is up in the keel trunk thus making the keel smaller. On boats that their keels swing up inside of a keel trunk or slide straight up will produce less surface area when sailing down wind.
The author of your book is 100% wrong or is talking about another mfg. boat, or you’re reading it wrong.
With the keel up, as the other fellows have stated, the keel will rock easier hanging on the keel bolt and cable thus adding strain on each of them. With keel down the top part of the keel or the area in front of the keel bolt is wedged into the high part of the keel trunk, the keel bolt is then locked down to eliminate any play or side movement that will then work on the keel bolt. You definitely do not want to lock down the keel bolt with the keel in the up position. Look at the attached mfg’s. drawing of the keel and trunk in the up position and the keel locking bolt.
Another thing you’ll hear or read is to raise the keel to have less surface area when sailing down wind. Again look at the drawing, with the keel in the up position the area in front of the keel bolt is exposed to the water, in the down position this up front area is up in the keel trunk thus making the keel smaller. On boats that their keels swing up inside of a keel trunk or slide straight up will produce less surface area when sailing down wind.
Alright! Thanks gentlemen! Everything posted makes sense. My boat doesn't have keel clunk nor do I want to be the cause of having it. Watercolors, I don't believe I read it wrong, seems pretty much an "either or" kind of thing and I don't recall that he was referring to a particular make of boat. Thanks so much for posting the manufacturers drawing. From that it's easy to see how much leverage can be applied to the stern end of the keel. And I have read about raising the keel when sailing downwind. I do it on my Widgeon but that centerboard probably weighs 20 lbs. I just leave the Cat keel alone. Capitan, I have experienced keel cable moan and evidently, from your post, if I leave the cable a little slack that will be eliminated? The fella I bought the boat from told me to let the keel all the way down, lock it then just pick up the slack in the cable, not tight at all, just not loose.
My slip is the third one from shore in about 8 ft. of water and even on the windiest days I've seen only little wavelets and felt very little movement. That isn't to say what the wind is doing 20 feet up but it's still more calm than another 200 ft. farther out. The other boat owners close to me tell me we're very protected there. I just got lucky on that part as I certainly didn't know or think of it.
Thanks again. I may make a sailor yet!
Vic
My slip is the third one from shore in about 8 ft. of water and even on the windiest days I've seen only little wavelets and felt very little movement. That isn't to say what the wind is doing 20 feet up but it's still more calm than another 200 ft. farther out. The other boat owners close to me tell me we're very protected there. I just got lucky on that part as I certainly didn't know or think of it.
Thanks again. I may make a sailor yet!
Vic
Yes, and Bilbo has it right, by letting the cable go slack, it just slides through the water with no choice to go along with the boat. If it is tight, the way the PO told you to, it has the properties of a guitar string (bass really) and the water rushing past it will play a low "groaning" tone as the cable vibrates at it's harmonic wavelength.
As far as locking the keel down with the clamping bolt; I probably remembered to lock it down a half dozen times in my 25 years of ownership. I forgot to slacken it off every time. I think the last time I did anything with it was 12 years ago to put some marine grease in the threads to keep it from leaking. I don't bother with it and to date, it has not bothered me either.
Personally, I find the prospect of taming a 550 lb steel keel and keeping it at a fixed position (should it ever capsize) with the use of a bolt of that size to be ludicrous. If I have neglected my skippering duties to the point where it is a concern, going down with the ship would be preferable to the scrutiny rightfully bestowed. The only things I race are waves and they usually win. As a sailor dedicated to cruising, conservative sailing is the only way to go and planning ahead is the rule of thumb.
As far as locking the keel down with the clamping bolt; I probably remembered to lock it down a half dozen times in my 25 years of ownership. I forgot to slacken it off every time. I think the last time I did anything with it was 12 years ago to put some marine grease in the threads to keep it from leaking. I don't bother with it and to date, it has not bothered me either.
Personally, I find the prospect of taming a 550 lb steel keel and keeping it at a fixed position (should it ever capsize) with the use of a bolt of that size to be ludicrous. If I have neglected my skippering duties to the point where it is a concern, going down with the ship would be preferable to the scrutiny rightfully bestowed. The only things I race are waves and they usually win. As a sailor dedicated to cruising, conservative sailing is the only way to go and planning ahead is the rule of thumb.
My keel cable sure moaned!!! And bass guitar is a fine comparison! Rather annoying when you're sailing along with no noise but the wind and waves then here comes this low, rumbling sound to screw it up. Being more sensitive to low frequency than high, (lots and lots of high freq. hearing loss...too many jet engines and shooting matches), I could tell the slightest increase or decrease in speed. Next season I'll leave some slack in it. Thanks for that tidbit of info. I wasn't counting on that!!
Captian, I'm in exactly the same boat as you regarding your last two sentences. I just have sooo much more to learn...but "ahm a'gettin' thar!". Thanks again to all.
Vic
Captian, I'm in exactly the same boat as you regarding your last two sentences. I just have sooo much more to learn...but "ahm a'gettin' thar!". Thanks again to all.
Vic
Much of that does not make sence to me. (I'm no physicyst.). Regarding resistance in the water w/ the keel up vs. down, there is something called linear flow of a hull or object going through the water. With the keel up the resist is met at the front of the keel and it is much less as the water travels down the length of it, particularly when running (down wind). When the keel is down the linear surface is much larger (the area of initial resistance). (Would you motor w/ the keel down?). Run a pencil through the water horizontally vs. vertically, and how does it feel. (It's the same w/ a plaining vs. a displacement hull.)
By the way, I leave my boat docked all summer and leave the keel up. You are going to have the wait of the keel on the boat. When the keel is up the wait is distibuted between the cable and the pivot pin, with it down it is all on the pin. With the keel down the boat is likely more stable at the dock, though. It seems it would have a fulcrum effect where the wait of the keel being lower can create more leverage the farther away it is from its opposite and lighter end. If it is centered up tight to its belly the fulcrum is much shorter/less (that seems to make sense).
I don't seem to get as much hum from my keel cable as I noticed originally, even though I'm sailing faster. I generally keep it taughnt or have the keel partially raised. It never bothered me, and was an indicator that I was "get'n it" ( mvoing at a decent speed).
By the way, I leave my boat docked all summer and leave the keel up. You are going to have the wait of the keel on the boat. When the keel is up the wait is distibuted between the cable and the pivot pin, with it down it is all on the pin. With the keel down the boat is likely more stable at the dock, though. It seems it would have a fulcrum effect where the wait of the keel being lower can create more leverage the farther away it is from its opposite and lighter end. If it is centered up tight to its belly the fulcrum is much shorter/less (that seems to make sense).
I don't seem to get as much hum from my keel cable as I noticed originally, even though I'm sailing faster. I generally keep it taughnt or have the keel partially raised. It never bothered me, and was an indicator that I was "get'n it" ( mvoing at a decent speed).
Something else occurred to me after I had posted regarding the fulcrum effect. With the keel down the fulcrum would have more momentum (I may be over thinking this). Thus once moving or rocking, it would continue rocking longer. And, w/ less actual keel in the water, as shown in the diagrahm, it may have less over all resistance (althouhg the depth of it would create more leverage, possibly, over-riding the side to side resistance of the water). With the keel down the boat may rock slower and longer w/ this momentum vs. shorter and quiker.
This same leverage of the keel being down may be harder on the pivot pin, especially if there is any play, compared to the lesser leverage appllied when the keel is up. It's like I'm having a moment of clarity (even if I'm wrong). I need a beer.
This same leverage of the keel being down may be harder on the pivot pin, especially if there is any play, compared to the lesser leverage appllied when the keel is up. It's like I'm having a moment of clarity (even if I'm wrong). I need a beer.
I don't believe it would continue rocking longer either because, as Bilbo said, the resistance of the water would prevent it and the keel itself wanting to reach center and stop. 550 lbs. in water ain't gonna rock long if it can keep from it. Come to think of it, when one steps from the gunwale into the cockpit the boat doesn't rock back and forth several times. If my memory serves me correctly, it gives to my weight, then pretty much comes back to center and stops.
I want to thank everyone again for all their experience and insight. All these little things I learn just serve to make me a better sailor. I'm grateful.....and can't wait til next season!!!!
Vic
I want to thank everyone again for all their experience and insight. All these little things I learn just serve to make me a better sailor. I'm grateful.....and can't wait til next season!!!!
Vic
Bilbo,
Could you expand on your rational for removing the rudder when resting at the dock? Also, I would appreciate your thoughts on merely tying off the rudder(my current practice). My boat is in a well-protected slip, in a protected marina on Lake Michigan.
Thanks for your expertise.
Ken(KJH)
I don't know why Bilbo would go to the hassle of removing the rudder either - except to reduce wear on the pintles and gudgeons?
My boat sits the sailing season in a very unprotected marina subject to gale force winds over ~2miles of fetch and hurricane force gusts from a semi-protected side that raise up 3-4' waves on the lake. The price of sailing on a pretty mountain foothill lake rather than a dull looking flatland lake...
I tie off my rudder well using the traveller control lines and leave it on the boat. Less work to get out of the slip = more sailing time.
OC
Thanks, OC.
I really value the opinions I get on these threads and am always interested in mulling through thoughtful, reasoned procedures for what it is we love to do.
Ken(KJH)
Though a county deputy lives in a house near the marina gate, the PO urged me to keep the rudder and tiller locked in the cabin when not in use ... although I can't imagine what the average crackhead would get from a pawn shop for them...
I did not think of #1, I think that my newer boat does not have a foam core rudder. #2 is ~generally~ a local issue - I worry more about my OB getting ripped off - nice for a fisherman - so it is kept locked to the boat. Won't stop a pro - but should stop a mere j@ck@$$...
OC
Having worked in boat yards in my younger days where we repaired the CB trunks of a fair number of boats my vote is to always raise it at the mooring.
On a mooring the boat rocks violently back and forth at a much different rate then when under load and dampened by sails which is a more steady and gradual pressure applied to the trunk. The violent rocking can wear the CB pin, as mentioned, and can also cause impact damage to the CB trunk. I have seen more than a few boats sunk due to fractured CB trunks when the CB had been left down to smash violently back and forth against the trunk. Boat wakes, current opposing wind or confused wave action etc. etc. can all play a role in CB pin and trunk wear if the board is left down.
We had a number of CB boats for many years and the boards were always up at the mooring. On the smaller boats, Rhodes 19 etc., we usually removed the rudder as well. They survived many Nor' Easter and even a few hurricanes this way... I don't hear much mention of protecting the CB trunk but it can eventually cause issues.
Considering the trunk of at least one C-22 was repaired due to fracture during my tenure at the yard I still vote to keep it up. Personally I would never leave a CB down on a mooring no matter how big the vessel.
IIRC correctly we repaired a number of Venture's (Mac's), a bunch of O'days (Javelin, Mariner etc.), some Catalina's a cat boat, two Town Class boats, one wood and one glass, and a host of others for this very reason. The yard owner used to call it "trunk slap" and I can still remember him lecturing owners about raising the boards while on the mooring.
The C-22 leaves some exposed board when up but it not a huge lever like it is when down. If the mast and rig can't support rocking then something is drastically wrong.
You guys can do what you want but I have seen the damage caused by CB's left down while moored or docked. Although I was not the glass guy doing the repairs I saw and watched what they were fixing and it happened enough that I never once forgot to raise the board of our CB boats when putting her to bed...
IIRC correctly we repaired a number of Venture's (Mac's), a bunch of O'days (Javelin, Mariner etc.), some Catalina's a cat boat, two Town Class boats, one wood and one glass, and a host of others for this very reason. The yard owner used to call it "trunk slap" and I can still remember him lecturing owners about raising the boards while on the mooring.
The C-22 leaves some exposed board when up but it not a huge lever like it is when down. If the mast and rig can't support rocking then something is drastically wrong.
You guys can do what you want but I have seen the damage caused by CB's left down while moored or docked. Although I was not the glass guy doing the repairs I saw and watched what they were fixing and it happened enough that I never once forgot to raise the board of our CB boats when putting her to bed...
I believe we were talking about the boat rocking at the dock, w/ continued wave motion like that described at Old Cat's dock. Not just a single rocking incident which would naturally stop rather quickly. Boats rock, esp. in waves.
As usual, Main Sail provides the definitive answer that makes sense, based on experience.
Cliff notes: leave it up.
What halppened to Bilbo's posts? Too long? Or, someone did not them?
As usual, Main Sail provides the definitive answer that makes sense, based on experience.
Cliff notes: leave it up.
What halppened to Bilbo's posts? Too long? Or, someone did not them?
While I respect Maine Sail's opinion, I disagree with him on keeping the Catalina 22 swing keel up while in a slip. If you raise the keel so it's hanging on the cable while on the trailer you'll see it wobbles like crazy. The keel pin will wear the keel fast. I'd like to know if the C22 they repaired had the cable break letting the raised keel slam forward and damage the keel trunk on the boat the yard repaired. This is the usual thing that happens to the truck on the swing keel C22.
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