Keel peel

[BC Bernie]

Here's my keel today. I knew both starboard and port areas were flaking so we peeled away the areas and it goes past the gel coat and the fibreglass is exposed. I don't know much about this area of the boat.
1. Why is there even gel coat here? Is it just to help provide a cosmetic finish?
2. Isn't our keel just cast iron - the fibreglass just provides a smooth fairing at the keel stub/hull connection, right?
3. What's the fix here?
Can I just sand out the area, slap some epoxy like interprotect, then paint over?
I have no idea why this has happened - I wonder if the previous owner hit something?? I'm getting a local pro shipwright to take a look soon; will ask that they also check the keel nuts are torqued down ok.
Thanks fellow sailors!
Bernie
View attachment 157642

 

[jssailem]

Oh Bernie Bernie Bernie..... What a sweet boat.
You asked

• Why is there even gel coat here? Is it just to help provide a cosmetic finish?
  • Gel coat provides a water resistant surface that can be polished to high shine and smooth finish that is resistant to UV. It is more than cosmetic and used as the outer layer of a boat when made up in the mold. It provides an outer skin to the boat's fiberglass / resin layers.

• Can I just sand out the area, slap some epoxy like interprotect, then paint over?
  • In a word... No. You will want to be assured that the forward keel bolts are properly torqued and the keel is in the correct position before you take the fairing and sealing steps.

• I have no idea why this has happened - I wonder if the previous owner hit something??
  • For not knowing what happened you made a good logical guess. Perhaps you can learn form the former owner what happened. It may have happened to the owner before him... You may never know, but the idea of running aground and yanking down and aft on the keel would tend to yield damage to that area of the boat. Equally possible is that the boat hit something submerged that slid beneath the bow and struck the keel. Perhaps the hit was not hard enough to move the keel and the previous owner had the cosmetic damage repaired. You are now discovering the repaired location (previously hidden by bottom paint).
• I'm getting a local pro shipwright to take a look soon; will ask that they also check the keel nuts are torqued down ok.
  • Very good plan.

Best of luck with the winter project. Keep us informed of your progress.

 

[Rick D]

To my eye, it looks simply like fairing material rather than gelcoat. It probably wasn't prepped to spec if that is the case. If it is fairing material, it's an easy fix. Good luck.

 

[kloudie1]

Water leak from small crack in fairing compound .. water froze and voila.. fairing compound popped loose..

 

[BC Bernie]

I don't think it was due to freezing. We sail all year round...boat stays in the ocean the whole time.

 

[marchem]

Is that fresh bottom paint?

 

[BC Bernie]

Is that fresh bottom paint?

Yep - I sanded it on Friday, 2 coats yesterday, and did stand patches today. Used Interlux Micron CSC ablative. I also took apart the raw water Marelon thru hull, cleaned and lubed with Forespar Marelube (thanks so much for the research you did on it) - I didn't replace the o rings, but have ordered the service kits. I'm feeling satisfaction but a little tired.

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

View attachment 157645 Here's my keel today. I knew both starboard and port areas were flaking so we peeled away the areas and it goes past the gel coat and the fibreglass is exposed. I don't know much about this area of the boat.
1. Why is there even gel coat here? Is it just to help provide a cosmetic finish?

Not gel coat. It's fairing compound. Smoths the area for better water flow.

2. Isn't our keel just cast iron - the fibreglass just provides a smooth fairing at the keel stub/hull connection, right?

No, the keel is lead. The stub is fiberglassed to strengthen then fairing compound.

3. What's the fix here?
Can I just sand out the area, slap some epoxy like interprotect, then paint over?

Not to sound like a broken record but fairing compound. You can buy it at most marine stores.

I have no idea why this has happened - I wonder if the previous owner hit something?? I'm getting a local pro shipwright to take a look soon; will ask that they also check the keel nuts are torqued down ok.
Thanks fellow sailors!
Bernie
View attachment 157642 View attachment 157643 View attachment 157644

I torque the keel bolts everytime I'm out of water, never had a loose one but I check to be safe.

Good luck and fair winds

 

[rukidn]

Bernie. I had this problem 3 years ago and fixed with fairing compound and barrier coated the entire area and keel, then bottom paint. We just pulled boat for the winter and all looks good, no cracks.

Good plan to check the keel bolts as I found mine quite loose. That big chunk of lead does move vs. the fiberglass and over time the bolts loosen, allows more movement, and this contributes to the cracking of the fairing. I had a prior post on “keel bolt maintenance” that detailed a bit more.

The construction is: the lead keel is bolted to the stub, the seam is layered with a fiberglass cloth band, then faired. I recommend scraping off as much fairing as will come off, as any loose areas will just delaminate later. Be aggressive. Also check that the fiberglass banding is intact. I had a small area that was de-laminated, so I cut it out and re-glassed. The secret to a good bond of the resin and fairing to the lead is to sand the lead immediately before applying the fairing. Lead oxidizes immediately and the oxides don’t facilitate a good bond.

Once keel bolts and structural integrity is confirmed, this is a nice DIY project.

 

[BC Bernie]

Thank you to everyone who have replied to this thread.

Well I thought I would share Warren Pandy of Catalina Yachts reply that I received this morning (I love his sense of humour). All the questions are mine, and the answers are from Warren (in quotes).

1. Is that fairing compound that has flaked off, thus exposing the fibreglass? Or is that gel coat?
"It is hard to tell from what is on the keel, but if I could see the piece that came off, I could tell you if it was just gel coat or if it was a sliver or bit of epoxy fairing compound covered by epoxy primer and epoxy paint by seeing the colors and texture of it."


2. What material might you suggest we use to repair this? 3m 5200?
"That would be a pretty decent “pinch fix” actually if you were in Bora Bora or similar as it could keep water from getting behind any loose edges of fairing or the epoxy and maybe freezing. (which it could in BC but not so much in Bora Bora I guess) But if it had some fairing compound under the epoxy primer and white paint, then some epoxy fairing should be squeegeed in or just rolling the epoxy primer and paint over it may be too thin and leave a cavity or recess sort of like what it looks like now"


3. Is the keel lead? "Yes.”
And then fibreglassed on top for the entire keel, or just at the stub?
“There is a 6” or 8” (as needed) vertical hth of 2408 cloth that goes all the way around that covers the seam or joint equally, (3 or 4” top & bottom of joint) and then the epoxy fairing compound goes over that."


4. In general, how would you suggest this be fixed?
"(as noted above) keep in mind that as far as these photos show, this is all cosmetic. Which means you could just spend 10 minutes to squeegee some epoxy into the recess area scuff sand it and then roll your bottom paint over the top if you didn’t want to spend much time on it now."


5. I will check the keel bolts and make sure they are torqued down ok..What value(s) would you suggest….100ft/lbs?
"correct, since all you r keel bolts should be 1” dia. And take 1 ½” socket or box wrench, 100-105 is fine. (if you have a ¾” at the end of the keel at the taper where the keel gets skinny, that one would be 60-65 ft/lbs."


I’m not sure what caused this damage; most likely the previous owner may have hit something??
"Maybe, maybe a prior yard “wobbled” when they set it down causing a little flexing that lifted that area, could be several things like that……"

 

[rpwillia]

I had some delamination on my keel about 10 years ago. I ground out the loose stuff, put some filler in, let it set and sanded it and did that area only with some barrier coat and then painted bottom paint over it. It has not recurred in all this time. Easy fix and nothing much to really worry about.

 

[BC Bernie]

I had some delamination on my keel about 10 years ago. I ground out the loose stuff, put some filler in, let it set and sanded it and did that area only with some barrier coat and then painted bottom paint over it. It has not recurred in all this time. Easy fix and nothing much to really worry about.

I'm getting that impression too. I took a pry bar tonight to remove as much of the flaking layer as possible, and then am planning to do pretty much what you did. Thanks for the input.

 

[BC Bernie]

I received more tidbits of wisdom today from Warren Pandy of Catalina Yachts which may be of interest for the techies in this forum (most of us!). I think I've flogged this thread to the limit now, so I thank everyone again.

He wanted to see the flakes that came off the boat - "the back side will tell more than what we can see on the hull’s keel stub" . So I sent him photos of the cross sections and backsides.

His responses:
-The blue seen in or thru it appears to be the bottom paint

-the greenish material that is between 1/8-1/4” looks to be the cosmetic epoxy fairing material

-simple test (which the pieces already indicate is if you break a piece off, it comes off like the others. (clean non-feathered edge)

-if it were important, there would be strands of the polyester cloth on the broken edges. (structural laminate)

-hence it is all to eliminate the raised edge between the keel and FRP hull. (nonessential beautification additions)

-but, if you want it to look good for the fish, or when it is on the hard, you can squeegee some new epoxy filler into any recesses that are two deep for just the epoxy primer and finish white paint coat that go over it

w/o being there, can’t say 100% of course, but it is looking like 95-98% from what I can see in the pics.

If the keel is on solid, no movement from a big hit and there are no leaks, it typically is all cosmetic.

And you do want to keep the fish happy, I hear they now have a hot-line to PETA ~~~_/)~~~

 

[Deleted member 117556]

Reading all this I now realize that I have never tightened the keel bolts and who knows when they were last addressed. If you only tighten them when the boat is out of the water, does that mean that you rest the boat on the keel before tightening them? If not then why not tighten them with the boat in the water? Dumb questions maybe but this is a new topic for me...
bob

 

[Deleted member 117556]

if you have a ¾” at the end of the keel at the taper where the keel gets skinny, that one would be 60-65 ft/lbs."
Which skinny end are you referring to, fore or aft?
bob

 

[marchem]

Keel bolts should be checked for proper torque (not just tightened) when the boat is sitting out of the water, with most of its weight on the keel. Since we don’t haul for the winter here, it happens when the bottom gets painted, every 2-3 years.

Most fairing compounds are fairly brittle, so loose bolts and flex at the keel joint will cause cracking, like you saw.

 

[Alansails]

We also had somewhat of a similar problem with our wing keel. We called and spoke with Warren Pandy-he devoted a lot of time to answer our questions , we even sent him photos, his reply:
"If the keel is on solid, no movement from a big hit and there are no leaks, it typically is all cosmetic.

"And you do want to keep the fish happy, I hear they now have a hot-line to PETA ~~~_/)~~~"

 

[BC Bernie]

We also had somewhat of a similar problem with our wing keel. We called and spoke with Warren Pandy-he devoted a lot of time to answer our questions , we even sent him photos, his reply:
"If the keel is on solid, no movement from a big hit and there are no leaks, it typically is all cosmetic.

"And you do want to keep the fish happy, I hear they now have a hot-line to PETA ~~~_/)~~~"

Haha same replies word for word...he’s a patient man that fields the same questions over and over.