I have a Hunter 37 Cutter (1984) with a keel that appears to have a slot for a centerboard. I'm looking for a schematic or other design drawing that could help me see how this may have worked, as I can find no connection through my hull to raise/lower the board? Can anyone help me with information on such a keel? Thanks. JWD
Keel Design
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Do a Search and see if you can find an old discussion on the subject. All the shoal draft cutters have that slot. But Hunter never installed a swing-keel on any of the boats. One of our "board members" was pursuiing the idea but I don't think it ever got done.
Ed:
I remember seeing a few threads on this topic but don't recall much detail.
Do you know if anybody has simply shoved a sheet of wood or metal or fiberglass into that slot that say would extend another 4-5 feet below the keel. Then bolted it in place into the slot? Don't bother with making it into a swing board. Might not be best for people who want shallow draft, but I would think that the extra "keel depth" might really improve performance when reaching.
I remember seeing a few threads on this topic but don't recall much detail.
Do you know if anybody has simply shoved a sheet of wood or metal or fiberglass into that slot that say would extend another 4-5 feet below the keel. Then bolted it in place into the slot? Don't bother with making it into a swing board. Might not be best for people who want shallow draft, but I would think that the extra "keel depth" might really improve performance when reaching.
Keel centerboard boats seem to be a bit of 'Yankee ingenuity'. I think Nat Herreshoff was one of first to use them extensively. I suspect centerboards have long been a feature of traditional American boats, what with the need for shoal draft in areas like Cape Cod and the Chesapeake (not to mention the Florida Keys...) When outside ballast became fashionable towards the end of the 19th century, I imagine it was a natural development to combine the ballast keel and the centerboard, giving the best of both worlds. This sort of discussion probably would be better pursued over in something like the WoodenBoat form, where folks are not just talking through their hats, as I am now 
Anyway, I speculate that John Cherubini may have thought the shoal draft 37 cutter would need a centerboard to go to weather with its deep draft siblings, but when the first one actually sailed, this proved not to be the case. A centerboard improves performance, but at added cost and complexity - something I can't imagine Warren Luhrs wanted. Maybe JC II could chime in at this point?
Anyway, I speculate that John Cherubini may have thought the shoal draft 37 cutter would need a centerboard to go to weather with its deep draft siblings, but when the first one actually sailed, this proved not to be the case. A centerboard improves performance, but at added cost and complexity - something I can't imagine Warren Luhrs wanted. Maybe JC II could chime in at this point?
Yeah it is kind of interesting speculating why the slot but never the board in the shoal 37c. The '75 30 (first year of the '30 I think) had the slot AND the board, I think that's the only way it came. Then from '76 to '83 the '30 was made shoal or deep, with no slot in the keel on the shoal draft model. So there was a sizable time gap between when the idea was abandoned and designed totally out for the smaller boat in the fleet and when the 37c went to production.
I initially wanted a center-boarder, thinking it would improve windward performance. But then after reading quite a few stories of maintenance issues and only marginable performance gain, and comparing PHRF of center-boarders with shoal drafters, it was dropped from my selection criteria; keep it simple. Besides, most guys I know with the centerboard don't even mess with the board (especially a bristol 35 owner). On paper, the H33C performed better than the Pearson and Bristol 35 center-boarders; two initially tops on my list. Now having sailed the shoal drafted H33C, I am very happy with the decision I made.
When we raced on a West Indies 38 with a swing keel, we would always forget to check the depth before tacking and got caught up a couple of times, which just tears it up. There was also a lot of trouble with the line used to pull it up, it never worked right even after pulling the boat twice. My lessons have pushed me to the idea that having less moving parts under the water is better. But, I have thought of having Marrs ( not sure if they're still in business) build me a bolt on bulb either extending the keel either vertically or horizontally, but that's as far as I've gone with that. Otherwise, I think I'll keep the existing shape even if I do have to pull it off at some time in the future, and instead lower the mast height. That'll keep the heeling action down and make it feel like it goes to wind better, albeit maybe, maybe a little bit slower, but hey, are we racing or cruising?
Kb
Kb
Our shoal keels are not only shallow they are thick(wide?). A bulb or a centerboard will not make it into a fin keel 37-cutter. And Mars still makes lead keels(http://www.marskeel.com/).
I assume you have the shoal draft 37C ? I think that the righting moment on the standard (deep) draft keel is plenty. I can carry full sail up to 20 -22 knots. I thought that the shoal draft keel is slightly heavier to give those boats essentially the same righting moment?
If I had any thought about changing my keel, it would be for a thinner, deeper one (but no, I LIKE 5'1" draft!). Still, I can't go to weather like my buddies in their C&C 37s...but Blaise and Ed S. assure me that's because of my tired old sails, not the hull!!!
All the C&C's do that. It's disgusting! You'll need the Blaise design to match them. But who wants a sloop?!
hello,as a new owner of a 37 shoal draft fixer upper , i wonder what i should shoot for in pointing ability?
Well that all depends on how fast you want to be going when you point.
You can point pretty high (withing 5 deg of in irons) but you not be going very fast.
You can point pretty high (withing 5 deg of in irons) but you not be going very fast.
With fair to good sails I have to stay outside 40 degrees. Never tried using any tricks to get the yankee in tight. You need a course with all broad reach with a four foot draft.
Hi Ed:
On the subject, actually I have rigged a not too inconvenient and not invasive to fiberglass "trick" that gets my clew much closer to the boat's center line than possible with the designed toe rail sheeting. The pointing improvement is noticeable to me. However, sailing yesterday I looked critically at some issues in respect of stanchion and lifeline interference problems. I was thinking today that I needed to start a thread asking for opinions about my idea to rectify. But first I must take a photo to show the issue.
Standby.
Ah, but...gentlemen don't sail to wind.
I found from racing over the years that tacking through 90 degrees is about normal, race boats can sometimes tack through 83 or so degrees. I've seen lots of racers work hard at moving the jib clew inboard, and go from 135% to 155% jibs, use Sobstab's and NorthSail's latest and greatest sails replacing them every year getting them cut so flat that they had no draft. After all that, they end up trying to point so high, that they end up crabbing sideways, making the degree of set, out of sight. It was so enlightening seeing this from the racing committee boat after having been out there racing for years too. The best sailor I know (and has literally thousands of trophies) was always telling me to 'drive it down', I was crabbing too.
In summary, if you're able to point 45 or less degrees to wind, that's good enough for me. But, I'd rather sail off the wind so it's even possible to go into the vberth without having to push down from the cabin top so I don't go airborne. People think it's funny or an exageration that the boat beat's you up, but no, it's for real, go upwind in 30 knots for three days and see if the boat just doesn't bruise and cut ya. I've spent a lot of money re-doing, upgrading, and repairing/replacing all kinds of stuff on Renasci, but I have the original JSI sails built in St.Pete some thirty years ago, and I'm not ready to replace them yet. They have good stitching, but I'm keeping them with what decent draft they do have, instead of trying to flatten them so I can go to wind better. Keeping a good amount of draft in them helps with lighter air days sailing slightly off wind. You can smoke your competion by doing that by the way, but only in light air.
And, I wanted to add, that I have the shoal draft keel, and I can carry a full set of sails in up to 22/24 knots, then I furl the jib. I had it out in 30 to 35 knots of breeze with the staysail and a reefed main, and they still pointed me within 45 degrees of wind. If you're interested in doing fiberglass work to bring the jib clew inboard, then you need to start cutting holes in everthing down below and start sanding off fiberglass everywhere possible to reduce weight, and start working on a keel. But, don't let the local PHRF committee find out, they'll probably want to and with good justification, hit your rating like crazy.
But, if you can tack within 90 degrees and have to go up wind, then you're in good shape, just ride it out. The amount of time and money you'll spend will increase exponentially for every degree earned.
Okay, enough pontificating for one evening......Happy sailing.
Kb
I found from racing over the years that tacking through 90 degrees is about normal, race boats can sometimes tack through 83 or so degrees. I've seen lots of racers work hard at moving the jib clew inboard, and go from 135% to 155% jibs, use Sobstab's and NorthSail's latest and greatest sails replacing them every year getting them cut so flat that they had no draft. After all that, they end up trying to point so high, that they end up crabbing sideways, making the degree of set, out of sight. It was so enlightening seeing this from the racing committee boat after having been out there racing for years too. The best sailor I know (and has literally thousands of trophies) was always telling me to 'drive it down', I was crabbing too.
In summary, if you're able to point 45 or less degrees to wind, that's good enough for me. But, I'd rather sail off the wind so it's even possible to go into the vberth without having to push down from the cabin top so I don't go airborne. People think it's funny or an exageration that the boat beat's you up, but no, it's for real, go upwind in 30 knots for three days and see if the boat just doesn't bruise and cut ya. I've spent a lot of money re-doing, upgrading, and repairing/replacing all kinds of stuff on Renasci, but I have the original JSI sails built in St.Pete some thirty years ago, and I'm not ready to replace them yet. They have good stitching, but I'm keeping them with what decent draft they do have, instead of trying to flatten them so I can go to wind better. Keeping a good amount of draft in them helps with lighter air days sailing slightly off wind. You can smoke your competion by doing that by the way, but only in light air.
And, I wanted to add, that I have the shoal draft keel, and I can carry a full set of sails in up to 22/24 knots, then I furl the jib. I had it out in 30 to 35 knots of breeze with the staysail and a reefed main, and they still pointed me within 45 degrees of wind. If you're interested in doing fiberglass work to bring the jib clew inboard, then you need to start cutting holes in everthing down below and start sanding off fiberglass everywhere possible to reduce weight, and start working on a keel. But, don't let the local PHRF committee find out, they'll probably want to and with good justification, hit your rating like crazy.
But, if you can tack within 90 degrees and have to go up wind, then you're in good shape, just ride it out. The amount of time and money you'll spend will increase exponentially for every degree earned.
Okay, enough pontificating for one evening......Happy sailing.
Kb
Re: Ah, but...gentlemen don't sail to wind.
Midnight Sun will sail to weather with any C@C we have raced against. We sail higher than all of the J boats until you get to the 35. Remember, that what you see for tacking angle isn't what you get over the bottom. Ed says he can tack through 80 degrees. I am sure he can. That is also about what Midnight Sun tacks through, but the shoal draft boats make MUCH more leeway. The shoal draft boats are also almost a thousand pounds heavier. Sloops rule!!!
Midnight Sun will sail to weather with any C@C we have raced against. We sail higher than all of the J boats until you get to the 35. Remember, that what you see for tacking angle isn't what you get over the bottom. Ed says he can tack through 80 degrees. I am sure he can. That is also about what Midnight Sun tacks through, but the shoal draft boats make MUCH more leeway. The shoal draft boats are also almost a thousand pounds heavier. Sloops rule!!!
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