I've got a 1977 Catalina 27 and the keel bolts are obviously not stainless- they're really funky with rust but seem sound and solid. What's the life expectancy and difficulty in changing them out? the Boat's in Berkeley, and always been in salt water.
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I would wait until the keel drops off
it would cost more than the boat is worth to replace them! Enjoy your boat it will last for years. You can keep your buidge dry and treat the bolts. That will make them last longer. I would use rustolum rust treatment. It comes in a little white bottle and all hardware stores should carry it. I use it on my motor too!
it would cost more than the boat is worth to replace them! Enjoy your boat it will last for years. You can keep your buidge dry and treat the bolts. That will make them last longer. I would use rustolum rust treatment. It comes in a little white bottle and all hardware stores should carry it. I use it on my motor too!
Replace the nuts
If the bolts themselves are OK (the usual situtation), the normal fix on the older mild steel keel bolts is to replace the old nuts and washers with stainless. I did it last winter, in the water. While mine looked really bad, after we used a nutsplitter and cold chisel to replace the nuts and washers, cleaned them up and used a die to chase the threads, the bolts were pristine. Replaced the nuts & washers with stainless, and painted the whole bilge with about 6 coats of a rustoleum paint. Cost was about 3-4 afternoons of work, and about $125-150 for nuts & washers, dies, broken chisels, band-aids for the knuckles, etc. And it really raises some eyebrows when you tell everybody at the yacht club that you've got brand new nuts! If the bolts are bad too, Catalina Direct has kits to do the job. The process is to drill holes into the keel and install sister bolts parallel to the originals. Much bigger job! http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/keel_bolt_replacement_windowed_from_catalina.gif
If the bolts themselves are OK (the usual situtation), the normal fix on the older mild steel keel bolts is to replace the old nuts and washers with stainless. I did it last winter, in the water. While mine looked really bad, after we used a nutsplitter and cold chisel to replace the nuts and washers, cleaned them up and used a die to chase the threads, the bolts were pristine. Replaced the nuts & washers with stainless, and painted the whole bilge with about 6 coats of a rustoleum paint. Cost was about 3-4 afternoons of work, and about $125-150 for nuts & washers, dies, broken chisels, band-aids for the knuckles, etc. And it really raises some eyebrows when you tell everybody at the yacht club that you've got brand new nuts! If the bolts are bad too, Catalina Direct has kits to do the job. The process is to drill holes into the keel and install sister bolts parallel to the originals. Much bigger job! http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/keel_bolt_replacement_windowed_from_catalina.gif
keel boats
I have a catalina 27 77 also. It is my understanding that the keel bolts that you have stay in place you can get catlina directs kit for a bit over 200 which is lag bolts and drill and drive them into the keel. I think there is two kits one for steel keels and one for lead. I do not know which one was standard in 1977. The other method is called windowing and is actually more secure in the long run. You drill new holes down into the keel in the bilge and then drill holes into the keel the size of a washer and nut creating a window. You then insert stainless threaded rod into the hole screw on the washers and nuts and fill the hole in the keel with epoxy and seal and paint. There is also an issue with the reason the keel bolts are a problem. if the plywood in the bilge that the keel bolts rest on is rotted then you also need to remove all of the wood and epoxy in fiberglass cloth sufficiently thick to replace the support lost from the plywood. also if the keel was seperating from the stub you need to strip down the keel joint and apply fiberglass tape and epoxy to the joint. fair the repair and paint. This is what I can remember from my research into the subject. type in catlina smile and do some more research. Labor is the main cost if you have the yard do this work. Is your boat from georgia? I just saw one greatly marked down for this problem. I would have snpped it up except I couldnt transport it. Good Luck.
I have a catalina 27 77 also. It is my understanding that the keel bolts that you have stay in place you can get catlina directs kit for a bit over 200 which is lag bolts and drill and drive them into the keel. I think there is two kits one for steel keels and one for lead. I do not know which one was standard in 1977. The other method is called windowing and is actually more secure in the long run. You drill new holes down into the keel in the bilge and then drill holes into the keel the size of a washer and nut creating a window. You then insert stainless threaded rod into the hole screw on the washers and nuts and fill the hole in the keel with epoxy and seal and paint. There is also an issue with the reason the keel bolts are a problem. if the plywood in the bilge that the keel bolts rest on is rotted then you also need to remove all of the wood and epoxy in fiberglass cloth sufficiently thick to replace the support lost from the plywood. also if the keel was seperating from the stub you need to strip down the keel joint and apply fiberglass tape and epoxy to the joint. fair the repair and paint. This is what I can remember from my research into the subject. type in catlina smile and do some more research. Labor is the main cost if you have the yard do this work. Is your boat from georgia? I just saw one greatly marked down for this problem. I would have snpped it up except I couldnt transport it. Good Luck.
not for faint of heart
I dealt with the keel bolts and plywood stub removal this spring. Not an easy job. I ordered bolts and washers from Catalina, had to remove plywood stub, put-in new fiberglass to replace the stub, drilled holes for new bolts and installed and then I fiberglassed over the entire mess so that the keel bolts would not be sitting, rusting in bilge water. It turned out well but It is not an easy job because you are working on your knees and working in the bilge which is below your knees, without support for your back. If Ihad known what I was in for, I wouldn't have bought the boat.
I dealt with the keel bolts and plywood stub removal this spring. Not an easy job. I ordered bolts and washers from Catalina, had to remove plywood stub, put-in new fiberglass to replace the stub, drilled holes for new bolts and installed and then I fiberglassed over the entire mess so that the keel bolts would not be sitting, rusting in bilge water. It turned out well but It is not an easy job because you are working on your knees and working in the bilge which is below your knees, without support for your back. If Ihad known what I was in for, I wouldn't have bought the boat.
The horror ......
The emotional scars are healing, but it’ll take time and a fair amount of beer to put that episode behind me. My 1974 C27, with lead keel had bolts that were dangerously rusted. The actual threads crumbled off while I was examining them. Like some of the others posting here, the wood stump was rotted and had to be chiseled out on top of everything else. Basically, I rebuilt it with fibre glass using the heaviest matting I could get. Then did the windowing thing and drilled new holes. If you have the lead keel, here’s a handy hint. When you’re drilling into the lead, use soapy water down the holes, otherwise, the drill bit will bind in the keel. The lagbolt upgrade works, but find a friend who has an impact gun, I first tried using a ½” drive powerbar and nearly died. Another handy hint: after you’re done and you’ve sobered up a little, paint the bilge with cheap paint. The lower grade paint will protect the aria but will also act as an early warning system when the bilge requires attention again. Just keep reminding yourself old boats run on air, love and hard work. Around a month after you’re done the nightmares recede a little, but you still wake up screaming and crying from time to time ….. Later, eh! Ferg
The emotional scars are healing, but it’ll take time and a fair amount of beer to put that episode behind me. My 1974 C27, with lead keel had bolts that were dangerously rusted. The actual threads crumbled off while I was examining them. Like some of the others posting here, the wood stump was rotted and had to be chiseled out on top of everything else. Basically, I rebuilt it with fibre glass using the heaviest matting I could get. Then did the windowing thing and drilled new holes. If you have the lead keel, here’s a handy hint. When you’re drilling into the lead, use soapy water down the holes, otherwise, the drill bit will bind in the keel. The lagbolt upgrade works, but find a friend who has an impact gun, I first tried using a ½” drive powerbar and nearly died. Another handy hint: after you’re done and you’ve sobered up a little, paint the bilge with cheap paint. The lower grade paint will protect the aria but will also act as an early warning system when the bilge requires attention again. Just keep reminding yourself old boats run on air, love and hard work. Around a month after you’re done the nightmares recede a little, but you still wake up screaming and crying from time to time ….. Later, eh! Ferg
Can keel trouble cause a leak
Has anyone had any experience with an aging keel leaking? New this season my issue has been about 4 qts of water collecting in the bilge of my Catalina27 within 12 hrs after each sail. If I sop it out the next day, it'll stay bone dry until we sail again. Most of the time we do run our engine to navigate out, so the sea-water intake assembly could be a culprit, but I've been thinking about the keel assembly too. I've pegged the spot where water begins to form at almost exactly half way between the sea-water thru-hull and the aft-most end of the bilge. There's nothing in that location I can think would allow water in up there. I'm suspicious that the water collecting in the bilge may be caused by something relating to an aging keel although I've got no hard evidence. Last spring on the hard I didn't see any evidence from below (but wasn't really looking for it either since last year wasn't a problem). I wonder if anyone of you have had or heard of such a leak in that area. Because it's right in the center-line of the boat and at the aft-most end of the bilge, I wonder if the keel is a reasonable suspect. Anyone have any info to share that might give me some better ideas? GJ
Has anyone had any experience with an aging keel leaking? New this season my issue has been about 4 qts of water collecting in the bilge of my Catalina27 within 12 hrs after each sail. If I sop it out the next day, it'll stay bone dry until we sail again. Most of the time we do run our engine to navigate out, so the sea-water intake assembly could be a culprit, but I've been thinking about the keel assembly too. I've pegged the spot where water begins to form at almost exactly half way between the sea-water thru-hull and the aft-most end of the bilge. There's nothing in that location I can think would allow water in up there. I'm suspicious that the water collecting in the bilge may be caused by something relating to an aging keel although I've got no hard evidence. Last spring on the hard I didn't see any evidence from below (but wasn't really looking for it either since last year wasn't a problem). I wonder if anyone of you have had or heard of such a leak in that area. Because it's right in the center-line of the boat and at the aft-most end of the bilge, I wonder if the keel is a reasonable suspect. Anyone have any info to share that might give me some better ideas? GJ
I have the same problem - I think
When I was out for a sail I took on water which was salty to the taste so sea water. I say this as this boat when I purchased it leaked all over, slowly I have eliminated all the big leaks; these leaks were fresh water (rain) leaks. I suspect the problem is with my rudder assembly.
When I was out for a sail I took on water which was salty to the taste so sea water. I say this as this boat when I purchased it leaked all over, slowly I have eliminated all the big leaks; these leaks were fresh water (rain) leaks. I suspect the problem is with my rudder assembly.
GJ & rs48
Go to the hardware store. Buy 2 colours of chalk like they use in a carpenter’s chalkline, place some of the powdered chalk in 2 locations where you THINK the leak might be. If you’re right, there’ll be a trail of that colour from the leak point to the bilge. I did this hunting stanchion leaks and it worked really well, although it did leave a mess. (my dock mates were very concerned about the wet red streaks that appeared on my boat over night) When you haul out, check for unusual cracking at the keel joint. I did my keel bolts this spring and there was no cracking this fall at haul out where I’d faired the joint. Could it be your water tastes salty like that just from salt in the bilge leftover from a swim or something? Hey, rs. how high did you put the bilge outflow when you updated pumps? Do you guys have lead or iron keels? Later, eh! Ferg
Go to the hardware store. Buy 2 colours of chalk like they use in a carpenter’s chalkline, place some of the powdered chalk in 2 locations where you THINK the leak might be. If you’re right, there’ll be a trail of that colour from the leak point to the bilge. I did this hunting stanchion leaks and it worked really well, although it did leave a mess. (my dock mates were very concerned about the wet red streaks that appeared on my boat over night) When you haul out, check for unusual cracking at the keel joint. I did my keel bolts this spring and there was no cracking this fall at haul out where I’d faired the joint. Could it be your water tastes salty like that just from salt in the bilge leftover from a swim or something? Hey, rs. how high did you put the bilge outflow when you updated pumps? Do you guys have lead or iron keels? Later, eh! Ferg
Bilge pump upgrade
In 1975 evidently Catalina expected none of their boats to sink - no bilge pumps. Because my boat had been leaking a lot from rain and through a number of sources, AND, because I have had a boat take on water rapidly with a manual bilge pump and electric down for the count, I added three Rule 750 pumps. One was added to the keel bilge and one on either side of the boat, for a total of three. I exited the water into the transom area (even though my transom hole is now enclosed), upgraded the size of the drain hole in the transom. Slowly I have located the sources of my leaks and have been fixing them. This year the boat is significantly drier in our Pacific North West monsoons, one of which we just went through last night and today. I went down to the boat and it was dry.
In 1975 evidently Catalina expected none of their boats to sink - no bilge pumps. Because my boat had been leaking a lot from rain and through a number of sources, AND, because I have had a boat take on water rapidly with a manual bilge pump and electric down for the count, I added three Rule 750 pumps. One was added to the keel bilge and one on either side of the boat, for a total of three. I exited the water into the transom area (even though my transom hole is now enclosed), upgraded the size of the drain hole in the transom. Slowly I have located the sources of my leaks and have been fixing them. This year the boat is significantly drier in our Pacific North West monsoons, one of which we just went through last night and today. I went down to the boat and it was dry.
Thanks Ferg
I've heard of using a powdery substance, but the chalk-line stuff is a great idea. I know where my leak is coming from on the inside, but can't guess where it's actually coming from outside. I'll pull the end of November and take a good look at the keel step area. I'm also starting to think I may rip off the seawater intake strainer/cover from the underside and see if that whole deal looks ok. Maybe then I'll do a reverse of your suggestion and place some red dyed liquid inside and see where it begins to seep out the underside!! Don't know if it'll migrate that far, but maybe worth a try (maybe with some interior pressure from a reversed shopvac?). What info do you have on torquing down the keel bolts. My keel is supposed to be lead. I've read there's a wooden core lying beneath the bilge and I guess the bolts run through that. I imagine that if that's ever gotten wet and deteriorated, then tightening those bolts could get interesting, hmmm. What torque specs did you use if any? BTW, thanks again for the input. GJ
I've heard of using a powdery substance, but the chalk-line stuff is a great idea. I know where my leak is coming from on the inside, but can't guess where it's actually coming from outside. I'll pull the end of November and take a good look at the keel step area. I'm also starting to think I may rip off the seawater intake strainer/cover from the underside and see if that whole deal looks ok. Maybe then I'll do a reverse of your suggestion and place some red dyed liquid inside and see where it begins to seep out the underside!! Don't know if it'll migrate that far, but maybe worth a try (maybe with some interior pressure from a reversed shopvac?). What info do you have on torquing down the keel bolts. My keel is supposed to be lead. I've read there's a wooden core lying beneath the bilge and I guess the bolts run through that. I imagine that if that's ever gotten wet and deteriorated, then tightening those bolts could get interesting, hmmm. What torque specs did you use if any? BTW, thanks again for the input. GJ
Any Ol' time GJ !!
We’re all in this old boat thing together. I don’t have torque specs. I knew mine needed replacing so just did that. Anyhow, if you have the wooden keel stump, re-torque ing won’t help if there’s been water penetration. The fiber glass over the wood will be delaminated and only get crushed and make matters worse! For your sake, I hope it’s that intake! Mind’ja, according to others, the lead keel fix is easier that the iron. Keep us posted, eh! Rick! What about the Leaky Caldron? Lead or Iron keel? Ferg
We’re all in this old boat thing together. I don’t have torque specs. I knew mine needed replacing so just did that. Anyhow, if you have the wooden keel stump, re-torque ing won’t help if there’s been water penetration. The fiber glass over the wood will be delaminated and only get crushed and make matters worse! For your sake, I hope it’s that intake! Mind’ja, according to others, the lead keel fix is easier that the iron. Keep us posted, eh! Rick! What about the Leaky Caldron? Lead or Iron keel? Ferg
quick questions
i was just wondering. What material is a keel nut made from? what is a keel nut used for? what is a sutiple material for a keel nut washer?
i was just wondering. What material is a keel nut made from? what is a keel nut used for? what is a sutiple material for a keel nut washer?
keel nuts are made from
Keel nuts are made form ordinary steel high strength or form 304 stainless. Never never use a stainless steel on a steel bolt. You will cause galvanic corrosian and the stainless will attack the steel in about 2 to 3 years is your bilge is full of water. don Huseman husemand@netscape.net
Keel nuts are made form ordinary steel high strength or form 304 stainless. Never never use a stainless steel on a steel bolt. You will cause galvanic corrosian and the stainless will attack the steel in about 2 to 3 years is your bilge is full of water. don Huseman husemand@netscape.net
mush keelson
If you have a wood core that is rotted then make a thick washer plate and a lot larger. The plate should be about 1/2 ". The plate should be about 3"x4" even if you have to put the hole off center to fit in the bilge. If you have two bolts side by side then use one plate with two holes . If the bolts are steel use a piece of galvanized steel or if you want to you can use stainless steel but you must isolate the steel form the stainless. Use pvc to keep the sides bolts form touching the stainless and get isolation washers form a good fastner hardware store. This will you will put on the top of the washer plate to keep the nut form touching. Don Huseman husemand@netscape.net
If you have a wood core that is rotted then make a thick washer plate and a lot larger. The plate should be about 1/2 ". The plate should be about 3"x4" even if you have to put the hole off center to fit in the bilge. If you have two bolts side by side then use one plate with two holes . If the bolts are steel use a piece of galvanized steel or if you want to you can use stainless steel but you must isolate the steel form the stainless. Use pvc to keep the sides bolts form touching the stainless and get isolation washers form a good fastner hardware store. This will you will put on the top of the washer plate to keep the nut form touching. Don Huseman husemand@netscape.net
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